Is Creationism a Fairy Tale?

[nuttypiglet]

Once again, most dinosaur fossils--including those in the positions you describe--are not from the time of the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. They are from isolated events like landslides and earthquakes. Why do you think they would all be from around the time of the meteor strike, and not the hundreds of millions of years before that?

well as we all know, there was meant to be a meteor impact in the cretaceous period, and this is when T-Rex lived in my example.
Now a landslide or earthquake. How would the animals remain embraced in such events? A velociraptor, also from the cretaceous period was eating prey. It was standing over it munching away quite happily and preserved like this. Surely a landslide or earthquake wouldn't preserve them in this exact position?

 

[lasthero]

well as we all know, there was meant to be a meteor impact in the cretaceous period, and this is when T-Rex lived in my example.
Now a landslide or earthquake. How would the animals remain embraced in such events? A velociraptor, also from the cretaceous period was eating prey. It was standing over it munching away quite happily and preserved like this. Surely a landslide or earthquake wouldn't preserve them in this exact position?

It would depend on how fast the landslide happened, what it was made of, et cetera.

Also, are you ever going to cite the specific example you're talking about? You speak about this like you're referring to some specific find.

 

[AV1611VET]

You didn't answer my second question.

Why should I?

I'm not the one who called these things "flying squirrels."

As far as "flight" is concened, use the standard dictionary definitions.

 

[JWGU]

well as we all know, there was meant to be a meteor impact in the cretaceous period, and this is when T-Rex lived in my example.

The T-Rex lived in the Cretaceous period, not after the Cretaceous period. T-Rex fossils are pretty much exclusively found before the extinction event, as is evidenced by the K-Pg boundary (and in the specific case of Tyrannosaurus we have only "a few dozen" such skeletons anyway.

Now a landslide or earthquake. How would the animals remain embraced in such events? A velociraptor, also from the cretaceous period was eating prey. It was standing over it munching away quite happily and preserved like this. Surely a landslide or earthquake wouldn't preserve them in this exact position?

These are not the only types of events that can lead to fossilization. Do you think animals jumped into tar pits? In any case, I can't find any evidence of this velociraptor fossil that was preserved "standing over" prey or "munching" on it. The best I can find: "...two hatchling Velociraptor skulls that were found near an oviraptorid nest in Mongolia (the eggs may have been a meal)" (source).

Or are you talking about this one?

It's an incredibly rare find, and the prevailing theory is that they were swept up in a sudden, massive sandstorm, or the equally-sudden collapse of a sand dune (explaining why they were encased in sand). If you believe that this is impossible, witness the evidence from Pompeii, where the lava and ash that preserved its citizens came in at 100 mph, and resulted in scenes like this:
http://peripateticbone.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/body-2.jpg (click to expand)
http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/9jpg_0 (click to expand).

I can easily see why two dinosaurs locked in a deadly struggle might not be completely aware of their surroundings.

It is also possible that they both died during a fight, and thus would have had difficulty running away And you are certainly not alone in mistakenly ascribing human-like intelligence to dinosaurs, but to be honest I'm not sure what running away would have accomplished in that situation.

In any case--such fossils are, as I said, extremely rare. Very useful, but very rare. And definitely--given the time periods involved--not evidence of any sort of alien activity.

 

[JWGU]

Why should I?

I'm not the one who called these things "flying squirrels."

As far as "flight" is concened, use the standard dictionary definitions.

You asked whether squirrels could fly, so I need to know what you mean by "flight."

The Webster definition is:

an act or instance of passing through the air by the use of wings

By this definition, no. Flying squirrels cannot fly--not under their own power, anyway. They might be able to fly if we attached a flying squirrel to a hang glider, but then I would argue that it is the "flying squirrel + hang glider" system that was flying, not the flying squirrel.

Note that there are other definitions listed. By some of them, flying squirrels can fly, and by some of them they cannot.

My followup question: what is your point?

 

[nuttypiglet]

It would depend on how fast the landslide happened, what it was made of, et cetera.

Also, are you ever going to cite the specific example you're talking about? You speak about this like you're referring to some specific find.

They are saying they probably killed each other in the battle with deadly wounds. I think some t-rex teeth were found in the skull of the triceratops.
Cite the example? it was hailed as one of the best discoveries of ALL time in 2006. Hang on, I'm a creationist yet I know about this?

 

[lasthero]

They are saying they probably killed each other in the battle with deadly wounds

Who is 'they'?

Cite the example? it was hailed as one of the best discoveries of ALL time in 2006.

Then you shouldn't have any problem finding an article talking about. I'm not accusing you of making it up, I can't find anything about this.

Hang on, I'm a creationist yet I know about this?

Are you saying creationists are all stupid or something? That's a bit harsh.

 

[lasthero]

Wait, stop.

Astonishing fossil that immortalises two 8-foot dinosaurs locked in mortal combat could fetch a record £6 MILLION at auction | Mail Online

Are you talking about this? You can't be, because this clearly states they were buried AFTER they died. As in they killed each, then they were buried. They didn't die in the middle of the fight, the fight killed them.

Scientists believe that shortly after they died there was an earthquake that buried the bodies

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

well as we all know, there was meant to be a meteor impact in the cretaceous period, and this is when T-Rex lived in my example.
Now a landslide or earthquake. How would the animals remain embraced in such events? A velociraptor, also from the cretaceous period was eating prey. It was standing over it munching away quite happily and preserved like this. Surely a landslide or earthquake wouldn't preserve them in this exact position?

Please, you have made this claim but posted no photographs.

I seriously doubt if such a fossil has ever been found. The closest I can think of is the fossil of a fish eating a fish. That is totally different. The prey fish is so big it looks like the predator may have been choked to death by the smaller fish. That would explain why it was found that way.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks lasthero, no sooner asked then answered. And of course the creationist got the details that bothered him wrong.

 

[Metal Minister]

Please, you have made this claim but posted no photographs.

I seriously doubt if such a fossil has ever been found. The closest I can think of is the fossil of a fish eating a fish. That is totally different. The prey fish is so big it looks like the predator may have been choked to death by the smaller fish. That would explain why it was found that way.

*blind post*
The claim is mentioned here: http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/20...eating-another-dinosaur/#sthash.Z6AVXIQq.dpbs

 

[JWGU]

*blind post*
The claim is mentioned here: Fossil found of velociraptor eating another dinosaur | A Blog About History - History News

That is the same as the fossil I discussed earlier. It is a fairly singular find and the theory is that they were encased in a sandstorm or trapped when a sand dune collapsed. It is also possible they had already killed each other ( Source):

Palaeontologists continue to debate the fossil and many still consider it possible that the two animals killed each other - the Velociraptor's raptor-like claw is preserved lodged in the throat region of the much larger Protoceratops, which appears at the same time to be biting down on the predatory dinosaur's right arm.

In any case, as our Pompeii finds demonstrate, it is quite easy for natural disasters to happen so quickly that there is no real time to react.

Edit: Oh, sorry. You're talking about a different discovery. The discovery to which you're referring was not preserved in three dimensions, though--it was not fossilized in the act of eating.

 

[lasthero]

*blind post*
The claim is mentioned here: Fossil found of velociraptor eating another dinosaur | A Blog About History - History News

And, again, it's not at all like nutty said. The velociraptor wasn't preserved 'standing over' the eggs 'munching on them'. The egg has teeth marks on it and the velociraptor died near it. It wasn't in the middle of eating.

 

[Metal Minister]

Whoa folks! Don't shoot the messager! I just gave the link that came up when I Googled the information!

 

[lasthero]

Whoa folks! Don't shoot the messager! I just gave the link that came up when I Googled the information!

It's not you, it's nutty.

 

[nuttypiglet]

The T-Rex lived in the Cretaceous period, not after the Cretaceous period. T-Rex fossils are pretty much exclusively found before the extinction event, as is evidenced by the K-Pg boundary (and in the specific case of Tyrannosaurus we have only "a few dozen" such skeletons anyway.

These are not the only types of events that can lead to fossilization. Do you think animals jumped into tar pits? In any case, I can't find any evidence of this velociraptor fossil that was preserved "standing over" prey or "munching" on it. The best I can find: "...two hatchling Velociraptor skulls that were found near an oviraptorid nest in Mongolia (the eggs may have been a meal)" (source).

Or are you talking about this one?

It's an incredibly rare find, and the prevailing theory is that they were swept up in a sudden, massive sandstorm, or the equally-sudden collapse of a sand dune (explaining why they were encased in sand). If you believe that this is impossible, witness the evidence from Pompeii, where the lava and ash that preserved its citizens came in at 100 mph, and resulted in scenes like this:
http://peripateticbone.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/body-2.jpg (click to expand)
http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/9jpg_0 (click to expand).

I can easily see why two dinosaurs locked in a deadly struggle might not be completely aware of their surroundings.

It is also possible that they both died during a fight, and thus would have had difficulty running away And you are certainly not alone in mistakenly ascribing human-like intelligence to dinosaurs, but to be honest I'm not sure what running away would have accomplished in that situation.

In any case--such fossils are, as I said, extremely rare. Very useful, but very rare. And definitely--given the time periods involved--not evidence of any sort of alien activity.

So we agree that most, if not all, dinosaurs became extinct through some natural disaster whatever it was. I keep seeing new findings which causes excitement among the scientific community, such as velociraptor having feathers which is a leap towards evolution into birds. Other places of information state they went extinct in the cretaceous period. How could velociraptor have evolved into birds when it was suddenly made extinct? We obviously have 2 sides of a coin here which do not match. Evolution/extinction. Which one is the right one? and how is someone like me (a creationist) supposed to get their head around such contradictory proposals?

 

[JWGU]

So we agree that most, if not all, dinosaurs became extinct through some natural disaster whatever it was.

Yes. However, to clear up any confusion, most fossils were created by much less dramatic processes. There was not an extinction event characterizing every fossil we find; in fact, extinction events have the opposite effect and cause us to suddenly find many fewer fossils

I keep seeing new findings which causes excitement among the scientific community, such as velociraptor having feathers which is a leap towards evolution into birds. Other places of information state they went extinct in the cretaceous period. How could velociraptor have evolved into birds when it was suddenly made extinct?

Scientists do not believe that velociraptors evolved into birds. This is similar to believing that chimpanzees evolved into humans. Actually, the current scientific consensus is more along the lines of "birds are the only surviving dinosaurs" than "dinosaurs evolved into birds."

We obviously have 2 sides of a coin here which do not match. Evolution/extinction. Which one is the right one?

Both. Velociraptors went extinct, as did nearly all species of dinosaurs, including most birds, but a few species managed to survive, though we have fossil evidence for only one (source):

The fossils described here show that rather than disappearing gradually over the course of the Cretaceous, at least four separate lineages of archaic birds persisted up to the K–Pg boundary: Enantiornithes, Hesperornithes, Ichthyornithes, and Palintropiformes. These four clades are a major part of the fauna, comprising 7 of the 17 species (41%) recognized here. Definitive fossils of archaic birds have never been reported from the Paleogene (7), and our examination of Paleocene fossils from North America (SI Appendix) failed to identify any archaic birds.

Significantly, enantiornithines are not the dominant members of this fauna. Although it has been argued that enantiornithines dominated Mesozoic terrestrial ecosystems (3, 4), this assemblage is actually dominated by ornithurines (23) (Fig. 4). In particular, many of these birds were found to represent advanced ornithurines, i.e., closer to the crown than Ichthyornis. We can therefore document the existence of a major radiation of advanced ornithurines before the end of the Cretaceous. However, we could not definitively refer any of these fossils to the avian crown; thus claims of a major neornithine radiation in the Cretaceous are not at present supported by the fossil record. One of these species, Ornithurine C, is known from the Paleocene and therefore represents the only Maastrichtian bird known to cross the K–Pg boundary.

and how is someone like me (a creationist) supposed to get their head around such contradictory proposals?

I'm going to resist making the easy joke here Anyway, no such cognitive dissonance is required since there is no contradiction here.

 

[lasthero]

such as velociraptor having feathers which is a leap towards evolution into birds

Velociraptors weren't the only theropods, nor were they the only ones to develop feathers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So we agree that most, if not all, dinosaurs became extinct through some natural disaster whatever it was. I keep seeing new findings which causes excitement among the scientific community, such as velociraptor having feathers which is a leap towards evolution into birds. Other places of information state they went extinct in the cretaceous period. How could velociraptor have evolved into birds when it was suddenly made extinct? We obviously have 2 sides of a coin here which do not match. Evolution/extinction. Which one is the right one? and how is someone like me (a creationist) supposed to get their head around such contradictory proposals?

Many dinosaurs had feathers. And they weren't "evolving towards birds".

Feathers were probably a combination of heat control, arguably still their main function today, and display. The use in flight was a later evolutionary change that occurred in only some dinosaurs.

All species are evolving all of the time. If a species exists it it evolving. The disaster that killed the nonavian dinosaurs stopped them from evolving. The avian dinosaurs are still evolving today.

 

[AV1611VET]

They don't fly they glide.

Then what brainiac named them "flying squirrels"?

The same one that names us Homo sapiens?