Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

It is obvious today's attempt at speaking in tongues is nothing more than vain babbling. But it does relieve stress and is therefore deceiving people into thinking they have the gift.
Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

Vain babbling? (reference to paganism) Fighting words.

You have a right to your opinion. Do you also have a right to divide and defame the body of Christ?

 

[Dave L]

Vain babbling? (reference to paganism) Fighting words.

You have a right to your opinion. Do you also have a right to divide and defame the body of Christ?

This is only trying to rescue some who have been deluded. Even Voodoo practitioners "speak in tongues".

 

[Saint Steven]

We have all of these in their writings, just as the first century believers did.

- Were there miracles before Pentecost? Why not after the Apostles? (capital A)
- Was there supernatural "guidance" before Pentecost? Why not after the Apostles?
- Why are we told to "eagerly desire the greater gifts"? Which ones are greater?

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. …

 

[Saint Steven]

This is only trying to rescue some who have been deluded. Even Voodoo practitioners "speak in tongues".

Voodoo? More fighting words.
You have declared war on the Body of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

- Were there miracles before Pentecost? Why not after the Apostles? (capital A)
- Was there supernatural "guidance" before Pentecost? Why not after the Apostles?
- Why are we told to "eagerly desire the greater gifts"? Which ones are greater?

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. …

There are numerous miracles of healing through the prayer of faith. Also I can predict the future having a correct understanding of faith that petty few Charismatics have. But we do not have the signs and wonders of an apostle that God used to confirm their credibility.

 

[Dave L]

Voodoo? More fighting words.
You have declared war on the Body of Christ.

I believe Azusa Street did that.

 

[Saint Steven]

You confuse the New Birth (Holy Spirit) with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost, the New Birth became the Baptism through repentance at a New Covenant level.

I'm not confused. I understand that perfectly well.
(the New Birth and the Baptism with the Holy Spirit)
But your claims don't hold up. (again)

The believers in Ephesus in Acts 19 received the Holy Spirit (baptism) when Paul laid hands on them. Not as a result of either there New Birth or water baptism.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not confused. I understand that perfectly well.
(the New Birth and the Baptism with the Holy Spirit)
But your claims don't hold up. (again)

The believers in Ephesus in Acts 19 received the Holy Spirit (baptism) when Paul laid hands on them. Not as a result of either there New Birth or water baptism.

They were already born again Jews, just as the born again Jews who asked Peter "what must we do?" in Acts 2:38. The Apostles gave them the gift of tongues, called the Holy Spirit by Luke. The Samaritans had the Holy Spirit in the New Birth, else they would not have believed Phillip and been baptized. But Luke called the transfer of the gifts through the apostle's hands "receiving the Holy Spirit". You cannot understand this in typical Pentecostal fashion, but with a correct view of the work of the Holy Spirit in both testaments, it becomes discernible.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is only trying to rescue some who have been deluded.

Rescue from what?

 

[Dave L]

Rescue from what?

From all that bound me as a Pentecostal.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are numerous miracles of healing through the prayer of faith. Also I can predict the future having a correct understanding of faith that petty few Charismatics have. But we do not have the signs and wonders of an apostle that God used to confirm their credibility.

Why do you limit miracles to healing?
Were there miracles before Pentecost? Why no miracles after the Apostles?

 

[Dave L]

Why do you limit miracles to healing?
Were there miracles before Pentecost? Why no miracles after the Apostles?

Why did the apostles perform signs and wonders to confirm their authority that are not found today?

 

[Saint Steven]

From all that bound me as a Pentecostal.

That sounds like a personal problem.
Just because you were in a bad church doesn't mean every Pentecostal is.
Stop making blanket assumptions!

 

[Dave L]

That sounds like a personal problem.
Just because you were in a bad church doesn't mean every Pentecostal is.
Stop making blanket assumptions!

I saw way too much to make it a personal problem.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why did the apostles perform signs and wonders to confirm their authority that are not found today?

That is your assumption.
Why do you make the Body of Christ an amputee? (missing body parts)

 

[Saint Steven]

I saw way too much to make it a personal problem.

Define the scope of harm done.

 

[Dave L]

That is your assumption.
Why do you make the Body of Christ an amputee? (missing body parts)

We have the apostles in their writings, just as the first New Covenant believers did.

 

[Saint Steven]

They were already born again Jews, just as the born again Jews who asked Peter "what must we do?" in Acts 2:38. The Apostles gave them the gift of tongues, called the Holy Spirit by Luke. The Samaritans had the Holy Spirit in the New Birth, else they would not have believed Phillip and been baptized. But Luke called the transfer of the gifts through the apostle's hands "receiving the Holy Spirit". You cannot understand this in typical Pentecostal fashion, but with a correct view of the work of the Holy Spirit in both testaments, it becomes discernible.

Discernable? Isn't that a spiritual gift that you have tossed in the dumpster?

Peter told the Jews at Pentecost to repent. You claim they were already born again?
If the Apostles gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands that means three thousand in one day. Is that your claim? You said "No" earlier. As I recall.

 

[Dave L]

Define the scope of harm done.

No harm done after escaping and overcoming through personal bible study.

 

[Dave L]

Discernable? Isn't that a spiritual gift that you have tossed in the dumpster?

Peter told the Jews at Pentecost to repent. You claim they were already born again?
If the Apostles gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands that means three thousand in one day. Is that your claim? You said "No" earlier. As I recall.

This is what I'm saying, nobody understands Acts less that Charismatics and Pentecostals. Nobody...