Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Dave L said:

Scripture furnishes no other means.

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The holy spirit furnishes more than scriptures. God is the real deal, no scriptures. Scriptures help a lot of course...

What is this focus on furniture?
Our walk with God is about getting out of the furniture and out in the marketplace. lol
And that is about being led by the Spirit.

Saint Steven said:

What is this focus on furniture?
Our walk with God is about getting out of the furniture and out in the marketplace. lol
And that is about being led by the Spirit.

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Yes, whatever furnishing means because i don't know lol, but experiencing God is more than the scriptures.

NBB said:

Yes, whatever furnishing means because i don't know lol, but experiencing God is more than the scriptures.

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I suppose "furnishing" would be defined as providing.
But we are being told that the Bible furnishes (provides) everything we need. No need for the gifts.

I think those with this view are missing something significant.
But if they are comfortable where they are, so be it.
I guess that is what furniture is for. lol

NBB said:

Ok, i read that, i disagree a bit, the breath of God could be spiritual too, and Jesus blowing on them is just to accompany what was being done spiritually, i think God is spirit, because for example, he created the universe from nothing, and something physical can't create as far i as know other matter, i don't know if there is something in the universe that can create particles or atoms, i don't think so, physical things can only be transformed.

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I never noticed this post.

Actually I don't mind so much you disagreeing - it's the REASONS for disagreement that concern me.

Since hermeneutics is an imperfect science, it especially needs rules to avoid absolute chaos. It's not anything goes. Therefore if an interpretation:
(1) is an unprecedented use of Hebrew or Greek language
(2) Or is a violation of proper use of language as we know it
Then those who insist on that interpretation should be FORTHCOMING (openly admit) that they are embracing apparent insanity. That's all I ask. Do you admit this? Because I gave you two arguments that are virtually apodictic, meaning that the evidence OVERWHELMINGLY points in one direction.
- In post #3, I pointed out that it is a violation of language, as we know it, to distinguish same-typed beings by type. That argument stands unrefuted - I don't think anyone on that thread (several hundred posts) even ATTEMPTED to refute it.
- In post #5, I pointed out that, from the standpoint of CONTEXTUAL exgesis, the translatoin Breath/Wind trumps Spirit/Ghost hands-down. And not just contextually in the sense of CONNOTATION, but also in the sense of ACTUAL PHYSICAL DYNAMICS. Unlike a physical Wind, an intangible Spirit cannot push waters of the Red Sea apart.

i think God is spirit, because for example, he created the universe from nothing, and something physical can't create as far i as know other matter, i don't know if there is something in the universe that can create particles or atoms, i don't think so, physical things can only be transformed.

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Whoa....Hold up one moment. You can't use one illogical concept as a basis for 'proving' another. Creation ex nihilo appears to be an illogical concept. It appears to be insanity. Imagine for example, if I told you, 'I just pulled a hammer out of the empty toolbox', you'd think I was insane.

That in itself is problemmatical enough, but it's even worse when you tell me that a 'Spirit' did it - when you base the claim on a 'Spirit'. On a what? Some seemingly insane notion invented by philosphers? A little common sense here, please. If God were an intangible spirit, what could He do? NOTHING! He couldn't even push a pencil, as it would slip through His hands. Nevermind trying to perform surgery on the sick. That too would be impossible.

I'm sorry you've bought into apparent insanity created by philosophers and perpetuated by them for 2,000 years.

The REALITY IS WE KNOW LITTLE about these things, but i agree with the general teaching that God is spirit.
Something made of matter deteriorates, the spirit is eternal.

I don't say im right you are wrong type of conversation here, its just that thinking about God as something physical gives me a bad feel i don't know.

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It's SUPPOSED to give you a bad feeling. When all of society has been brainwashed IN ONE DIRECTION for 2,000 years, any deviation from it will naturally upset your stomach. I get that.

I like to think that something spiritual has power over the physical, how? nobody seems to know.

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Exactly. Because it makes zero sense. It's total insanity. You want to keep believing that stuff? Fine. Just be be forthcoming/open/honest with others about the fact that you've elected to embrace apparent insanity contrary to all reason.

You have the idea that an spiritual body is some sort of 'advanced' 'matter'? i don't think so, i think is an eternal spiritual body.

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Matter is by its very nature eternal. Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

NBB said:

The holy spirit furnishes more than scriptures. God is the real deal, no scriptures. Scriptures help a lot of course...

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Scripture does not say tongues are available in any way other than the hands of an apostle or through the two outpourings.

Saint Steven said:

I think you (collectively) have elevated the Apostles above what God intended.

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The scripture shows what apostles were made of.

Saint Steven said:

There is no rhema in logos.
Which is more strengthening, encouraging and comforting?
To know that God cares for everyone in general, or to know God cares for you personally in a specific area of your life?

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You need to junk Kenneth Hagin and the rest of the Wofers.

Saint Steven said:

Seriously?
Did you tear 1Cor.12 out of your Bible?

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You are reading it through the typical Pentecostal framework that is not accurate. It exists to bolster an opinion of the unlearned originals to promote their scheme.

Dave L said:

The scripture shows what apostles were made of.

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Right. Flesh and blood.

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 22:34
Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

Dave L said:

You need to junk Kenneth Hagin and the rest of the Wofers.

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The Bible (and prophecy) "furnished" us with rhema, not Kenneth Hagin.
Kenneth Hagin popularized a biblical observation. One that brings your doctrine into question. No wonder you dislike it.

Dave L said:

You are reading it through the typical Pentecostal framework that is not accurate. It exists to bolster an opinion of the unlearned originals to promote their scheme.

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It is very clear what it says.
You claim that the apostles (small a) distributed the gifts. This says the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts. Who should we believe? I'm not the one guilty of "framework" here.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 4, 7, 8-11
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Dave L said:

Scripture does not say tongues are available in any way other than the hands of an apostle or through the two outpourings.

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This post was addressed to someone else, but...
1) You are familiar with the scripture below that tells us that the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts.
2) Since the outpourings were one way that God distributes the gifts, what is to prevent Him from continuing to do that? Either on a grand or an individual basis.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 4, 7, 8-11
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Saint Steven said:

This post was addressed to someone else, but...
1) You are familiar with the scripture below that tells us that the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts.
2) Since the outpourings were one way that God distributes the gifts, what is to prevent Him from continuing to do that? Either on a grand or an individual basis.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 4, 7, 8-11
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

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“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11)

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18)

Saint Steven said:

It is very clear what it says.
You claim that the apostles (small a) distributed the gifts. This says the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts. Who should we believe? I'm not the one guilty of "framework" here.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 4, 7, 8-11
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

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You are saying the gifts came in other ways without direct scriptural support. Scripture actually says they came through the two outpourings or an apostle's hands.

Saint Steven said:

The Bible (and prophecy) "furnished" us with rhema, not Kenneth Hagin.
Kenneth Hagin popularized a biblical observation. One that brings your doctrine into question. No wonder you dislike it.

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You are making too much out of this.

Saint Steven said:

Right. Flesh and blood.

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 22:34
Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

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Read Acts where they chose Matthias to replace Judas. They had certain requirements.

@Dave L
You and I have gone in opposite directions to end up where we are at.
While you had started in the Charismatic church and had a bad experience with it which landed you in the evangelical camp. I started in the evangelical camp and ended up Pentecostal. Let me know if my understanding on that is incorrect.

You asked me earlier about teaching.
I grew up in the evangelical church. My home church was a world missions focused protestant community church. The senior pastor was there for 25 years. All of my youth. I was eventually elected as an Elder to the church (in my late 20s) and was teaching a Bible study as part of a prison outreach. I was actually filling in for my father when he went south for the winter. It was at that time that people were telling me that I had a special gift in the teaching area. I think I had received a spiritual heritage from my father. A second-generation teacher. But that's just a theory. Something that struck me when I read about Elijah’s cloak and other passages.

While my spiritual upbringing was sufficient, I was feeling that something was missing. I had only learned what Cessationism was in the last five years or so. At that time it was just the "standard" doctrine of the evangelical church. I didn't buy it. My parents were sympathetic to things charismatic and had been attending evening and weekend meetings to learn more. My Mom collected message cassettes. She had shoe boxes full of them. I never heard my parents speak in tongues nor saw them operating in miracle gifts.

The Charismatics and Pentecostals that I met weren't much help in answering the many question I had. Armed with my Bible knowledge I had to hit the books myself and figure all this out. Eventually I was satisfied that the Charismatics and Pentecostals had a valid biblical case, even though they were terrible at articulating it.

You probably recall me writing about this earlier on the forum.

All this to inform you (again?) of where I am coming from, and where I think you are coming from. You are obviously uncomfortable with things Charismatic and Pentecostal and have built a fortress to defend yourself. I get that. And you are welcome to have your position. That's fine. But that's all it is, a position.

Dave L said:

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11)

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18)

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C'mon Dave. Bible versus Bible never works.
You biblical choice does not negate mine, nor mine yours.
I say both, not one or the other.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 4, 7, 8-11
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Dave L said:

You are saying the gifts came in other ways without direct scriptural support. Scripture actually says they came through the two outpourings or an apostle's hands.

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Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”