Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

Peter said scripture is a more sure word of prophecy.

Highlight that statement for me here. I can't see it.

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[JAL]

I have scripture that limits the distribution of the gifts to the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. You need to expand this with scripture saying the gifts came in any other way.

Why should we need a third paragidm when the first one that you just gave already proves our point that apostolic hands aren't needed?

Even if such need were true, it wouldn't spell the demise of charismatic theology. On the contrary it would only reinforce the need for us to petition God to raise up apostles (my view).

 

[Saint Steven]

Why should we need a third paragidm when the first one that you just gave already proves our point that apostolic hands aren't needed?

Even if such need were true, it wouldn't spell the demise of charismatic theology. On the contrary it would only reinforce the need for us to petition God to raise up apostles (my view).

This hints at what I think happened here. (my view)

The church came to leadership demanding to know why we weren't operating in the gifts today. (in that day)

Instead of hitting their knees, they decided to hit the books. Because OBVIOUSLY there was nothing WRONG with the way they were doing things. There had to be ANOTHER reason for it.

Eureka, they found it!
By twisting a few scriptures ("proof texts") here and there, they were able to build a case against the Holy Spirit. (not a good idea)

(A "proof text" is a scripture you look for to bolster your own personal opinion. It is then used as "authoritative" evidence for your own opinion.)

Their brain child answer was Cessationism. The claim that the gifts ceased in operation after the passing of the Apostles whose "job" it was to distribute them. (not true)

Of course they needed to identify an "enemy" as the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements started gaining momentum. So they created an "ism" to attack. The "Continuationists" were labeled as outsiders, thus dividing the church.

 

[Dave L]

Highlight that statement for me here. I can't see it.

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

“And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:18–21) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Scripture amounts to nothing?
I need to disprove your opinion?

You need all of scripture, not just select pieces to bolster your claims.

 

[Dave L]

"... apostle's" (small a) Name them.

The scriptures say the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and you say otherwise.
Thus adding to scripture.

The Holy Spirit distributed through an apostle's hands.

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11) (KJV 1900)

“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:5) (KJV 1900)

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12) (KJV 1900)

 

[Saint Steven]

“And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:18–21) (KJV 1900)

That doesn't say, "... scripture is a more sure word of prophecy." - Dave L

It says we have ALSO a more sure word of prophecy. Defined as spoken prophecy, not the written word. "... prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." - vs 21 --- "Spake" not wrote.

 

[Saint Steven]

You need all of scripture, not just select pieces to bolster your claims.

Says the guy with no scriptures to prove his outrageous claims.
How many times have I asked for proof? And this is what I get. ???
Frankly, I'm surprised. I thought you at least had a case to make.
I have always considered you a worthy opponent. Now I wonder.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Holy Spirit distributed through an apostle's hands.

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” (Romans 1:11) (KJV 1900)

“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:5) (KJV 1900)

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12) (KJV 1900)

Finally. Now was that so hard?
The Galatians 3:5 reference doesn't count. The "He" is God, not an apostle. (small a)
Romans 1:11 does not LIMIT the impartation of gifts to apostles.
2 Corinthians 12:12 is best understood in context. (my best friend) Verse 11 says:
"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing." Therefore is more a comparative, not a declarative.

I'll give you an "E" for effort.

Romans 1:11
I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong—

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

2 Corinthians 12:12
I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

 

[Dave L]

Says the guy with no scriptures to prove his outrageous claims.
How many times have I asked for proof? And this is what I get. ???
Frankly, I'm surprised. I thought you at least had a case to make.
I have always considered you a worthy opponent. Now I wonder.

How do I prove beyond what scripture says. You are the one adding to it.

 

[Saint Steven]

How do I prove beyond what scripture says. You are the one adding to it.

That's pretty presumptive.
You haven't even proved by scripture yet. (just hearsay and conjecture)
Let's start there.

 

[Dave L]

Finally. Now was that so hard?
The Galatians 3:5 reference doesn't count. The "He" is God, not an apostle. (small a)
Romans 1:11 does not LIMIT the impartation of gifts to apostles.
2 Corinthians 12:12 is best understood in context. (my best friend) Verse 11 says:
"I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing." Therefore is more a comparative, not a declarative.

I'll give you an "E" for effort.

Romans 1:11
I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong—

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

2 Corinthians 12:12
I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

We still have zero scriptural support the gifts came in another way than through an apostle's hands beyond the two outpourings. Plus we can compare today's gifts with the originals and prove they are phony.

 

[Dave L]

That's pretty presumptive.
You haven't even proved by scripture yet. (just hearsay and conjecture)
Let's start there.

I gave the two scriptural means for the distribution of the gifts. You are adding to scripture without proof claiming today's enactments of the gifts are genuine.

 

[Dave L]

That doesn't say, "... scripture is a more sure word of prophecy." - Dave L

It says we have ALSO a more sure word of prophecy. Defined as spoken prophecy, not the written word. "... prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." - vs 21 --- "Spake" not wrote.

It says scripture is better because it is not of private interpretation as the gifts were.

 

[Saint Steven]

We still have zero scriptural support the gifts came in another way than through an apostle's hands beyond the two outpourings. Plus we can compare today's gifts with the originals and prove they are phony.

Presumption on conjecture on assumption = a house of cards.

You have failed to support your own outrageous claims and now put the burden of proof on me to disprove your opinions.

Why are you rejecting what 1Cor.12 says about the Holy Spirit distributing the gifts? Has the Holy Spirit ceased to operate in the distribution of gifts as he wills? (nope)

You admit that the apostles did not administer the outpourings, why can't you admit this?

 

[Saint Steven]

I gave the two scriptural means for the distribution of the gifts. You are adding to scripture without proof claiming today's enactments of the gifts are genuine.

You gave me three.
One was bogus, one was comparative and one did not limit the distribution of gifts.
You got nothing.

On what basis do you level the charge of "adding to scripture without proof"?
Seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[Dave L]

You gave me three.
One was bogus, one was comparative and one did not limit the distribution of gifts.
You got nothing.

On what basis do you level the charge of "adding to scripture without proof"?
Seems a bit hypocritical.

1) the two outpourings. 2) the hands of an apostle.

 

[Saint Steven]

It says scripture is better because it is not of private interpretation as the gifts were.

Since when were the gifts (manifestations of the Holy Spirit) "of private interpretation"?

 

[Dave L]

Since when were the gifts (manifestations of the Holy Spirit) "of private interpretation"?

Tongues needed to be interpreted, bias and all. Prophecy was not as direct as scripture which was God breathed.

 

[Dave L]

Presumption on conjecture on assumption = a house of cards.

You have failed to support your own outrageous claims and now put the burden of proof on me to disprove your opinions.

Why are you rejecting what 1Cor.12 says about the Holy Spirit distributing the gifts? Has the Holy Spirit ceased to operate in the distribution of gifts as he wills? (nope)

You admit that the apostles did not administer the outpourings, why can't you admit this?

You are ignoring other scriptures to prove your point.