Is Christianity broke?

[Aibrean]

Well Lutherans didn't "turn" to Protestantism because that didn't exist. We are more or less Catholics in exile. I find more in common with a Catholic than a Baptist.

 

[Justsomedude]

Well apparently you've never heard of Catholic Voodoo in Haiti. We don't need a history lesson. Perhaps you do (the Crusades for one). There were legitimate flaws. That's not to say we should be comparing the Catholics of the past to the present but when you start putting history into the mix you should. That is why Martin Luther protested - he wanted to expose the flaws (as a Catholic himself) and he accused them of being "fake".

I am aware of the Crusades as well as the inquisitions, the witch burnings and the oppression of the sciences. I am also aware of the the modern catholic stance on birth control and abortion (both of which are completely wrong headed). I am also aware of the past Catholics attitudes toward Jews.

All this is just a part of Christian history. Part of the reason that I favor the Catholic Church is that they went through that history and then moved on. This shows me that, however slow they might be, the Catholics do learn from their mistakes and when they do, they correct them. I trust that eventually, the Church will change its stance on birth control, abortion, allowing priests to marry and other areas where the Catholics have it wrong.

I have no such faith in Protestants though. Protestants are still commiting all these sins to various degrees. Even if one church manages to learn from it's mistakes, none of the others do because of the total lack of unity.

You mentioned that Martin Luther accused the Catholic priesthood of not being real Catholics. I am aware of Luther's reasons for doing what he did and do not disagree that the Catholic Priesthood was totally corrupt at the time. However,
history has proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that Luther's solution to be a disastrous error. Now, everytime a protestant has a disagreement with his church, he follows Luther's precendent, accuses his brethren of being fakes, abandons ship and invents another new religion and dubs it Christianity.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

Well Lutherans didn't "turn" to Protestantism because that didn't exist. We are more or less Catholics in exile. I find more in common with a Catholic than a Baptist.

Ditto for Anglicans.

 

[Justsomedude]

And how is Catholicism free from this? Because it kept the historic name?

Because regardless of everything else they have done wrong, they have remained unified. The Protestants left Catholicism, not the other way around.

It could be said that it is Christianity which has split into different roads. Do you not want to be a Christian because of this?

Judaism has split into different roads also. The difference is that a Jew is a Jew is a Jew but a Christian is a only a Christian if they are a True Christian (TM).

What reason do you have to think that if you join Anglicanism (for example) that they would kick you out? Some people have been part of that church for their whole lives and are happy with it.

On a purely personal level, I actually like the Anglicans more than the Catholics. I don't inticipate that if I were an Anglican, I would have any problems so maybe I am painting with two broad of a stroke.

If I were an Anglican, I would consider myself an Anglican first and last and not identify with the larger Christian world.

Lets say the Western Churches are the Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches (which is true). Now is Eastern Orthodoxy the better choice because the Catholic Church is part of a group that splits?

Again, I know nothing about the Eastern Orthodox or it's relationship to the Catholic Church. Until I learn more, I can't comment on them.

It isn't the splitting that is the main problem but the antagonism. There is no such saying as "Christians stick together."

But then the Catholic Church and Eastern Church split from each other at one point and so makes the Eastern Church part of the splits you don't like. I think the best thing to say is that Christianity has splits in its belief systems, but within those belief systems it is pretty stable most of the time.

More accurately, Catholicism has remained pretty stable over the centuries. The protestant church splits left and right.

Again, I know nothing about the Eastern Orthodox.

They are the oldest Western Church at most.

I have no problem with there being two main branches of Christianity. There is four main branches of Judaism and that doesn't bother me. Again, it is mainly the antagonism between the Protestants.

But the Catholics havn't agreed with Protestants either, as part of the Western group; and East and West havn't agreed including Oriental Orthodoxy as part of the Christianity group. Then you have the split between Christianity and Judaism, and Islam also claims decent from Abraham.

My point is that if you group things up in the right way you can see lots of splits.

People being people, splits are unavoidable.

Part of the reason for giving religions names is so that you can know who your family, friends and allies are. Only in Christianity, this doesn't work because if you are a Christian, another Christian is just as likely to group you in with the enemy as they are to view you as an ally.

The Catholic church holds together more because it has a Pope and people who disagree with the Catholic church by definition become Protestant (or one of the other large groups). This means that you don't see splits in the Catholic church (other than the reformation) because people who do disagree with doctrine or who are rejected turn to Protestantism generally.

The main point regarding Catholicism is since they have well-defined rules who is and who isn't a Catholic, they are more identifiable to each other as friends and family. You go anywhere in the world and Catholics are still your brothers and sisters.

With Protestants, you're lucky if you are fortunate to be considered family in your own church.

 

[Justsomedude]

Well Lutherans didn't "turn" to Protestantism because that didn't exist. We are more or less Catholics in exile. I find more in common with a Catholic than a Baptist.

Luther started Protestantism. You, being true to the protestant way, claimed that many of your brothers and sisters in Christ weren't real Christians.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

There are many Catholic and Protestant Christians -- leaders, congregations and individuals -- who are working tirelessly for Christian unity. I have identified myself as an Anglican, but I really should think of myself as Christian first, and behave that way also. Thank you for drawing attention to this issue again.

 

[Aibrean]

Luther started Protestantism. You, being true to the protestant way, claimed that many of your brothers and sisters in Christ weren't real Christians.

Not intentionally. He wrote a letter to the Pope about the issues and wanted peace and unity.

Of course there are people who claim to be Christian and are not. It's not a "protestant way", it's a common sense (and Biblical) way. Look at Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[realtruth101]

I was born to protestant Christian parents, brought up in a protestant Christian home and attended a protestant Christian Church, accepted Christ into my heart at age 10 and was a born again protestant Christian up until the age of 23. Then I left the Church and deconverted.

Upon learning that I deconverted, a lot of Christians will start by asking, "Is it because you got hurt?" or "Did you get burned by a bad Church?" or something else along the same line.

When asked this, my thinking is that getting hurt and burned by Christians must be a pretty regular occurance. Otherwise, people wouldn't think to ask this.

I have two questions concerning this:
1. Doesn't this suggest that Christiantiy is a broken religion in the sense that Christians do not actually know how live any more moral or ethical than anyone else?

2. Let's suppose that this really happened. In that case, one thing that I would be certain of about Christiantiy is that Christians hurt and burn each other. And so why would I want to return to Christianity and risk having it happen again?

Well all I can say is the next Messiah on the horizen will be the antichrist, since you reject Jesus as the one true Messiah.......best of luck......just remember when getting your hand stamped, you knew about all this before you deconverted

 

[solarwave]

Because regardless of everything else they have done wrong, they have remained unified. The Protestants left Catholicism, not the other way around.

But can Catholicism split? The first time it split one side remained called Catholic and the other was whatever denomination it became. If Catholicism were to split again I suspect the same thing would happen. One group would become protestant (by definition of not being Catholic) and a Catholic group would remain. So if anyone in the Catholic church does protest again the church they become protestants.

Can I equally say that Lutheranism has remained unified and other denominations split from them?

Judaism has split into different roads also. The difference is that a Jew is a Jew is a Jew but a Christian is a only a Christian if they are a True Christian (TM).

I don't know enough about Judaism to comment much on it. What is it that makes a Jew a Jew?

If I were an Anglican, I would consider myself an Anglican first and last and not identify with the larger Christian world.

Isn't this what alot of people do though? I simply consider myself Christian and I think I would be welcomed as a brother in many Christian denominations. They might disagree with my beliefs but could at least consider me Christian.

More accurately, Catholicism has remained pretty stable over the centuries. The protestant church splits left and right.

The protestant church isn't a church any more than the western church is a church.

I have no problem with there being two main branches of Christianity. There is four main branches of Judaism and that doesn't bother me. Again, it is mainly the antagonism between the Protestants.

Yeah the antagonism is annoying, but doesn't make them wrong.

Part of the reason for giving religions names is so that you can know who your family, friends and allies are. Only in Christianity, this doesn't work because if you are a Christian, another Christian is just as likely to group you in with the enemy as they are to view you as an ally.

Have you had a bad experience by any chance? Its just that I don't get this feeling.

The main point regarding Catholicism is since they have well-defined rules who is and who isn't a Catholic, they are more identifiable to each other as friends and family. You go anywhere in the world and Catholics are still your brothers and sisters.

With Protestants, you're lucky if you are fortunate to be considered family in your own church.

Other churchs have rules around membership too.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

Have you had a bad experience by any chance? Its just that I don't get this feeling.

I have the same feeling. Justsomedude has left Christianity. I hope he isn't justifying his choice by deciding that all of Christianity -- or all protestant faiths -- are broken. People are broken. "The church" is the body of all Christians. If we believe in Christ and honour His message then we are on the right path.

 

[Justsomedude]

Not intentionally. He wrote a letter to the Pope about the issues and wanted peace and unity.

I guess the issue wasn't as clear cut as I am making it out to be. It's been some time since I studied anything about the start of the reformation and I admittedly have forgotten a lot of details.

In the present day, the Catholic Church has recovered from many of the ills that were plaguing it so I can longer identify any reason whatsoever for Christians in the modern day to remain seperate from the Church. But they have and the result is that protestantism has remained corrupt.

Of course there are people who claim to be Christian and are not.

There are people that claim to be Jews that are not. The difference is that the fake Jews are not members of Jewish congregations whom other Jews have petty disagreements with. They are members of another religion and are posing as Jews in an attempt to convert Jewish people to their religion..

Judaism has well defined rules about who is and who isn't a Jew. If your mother is Jewish at your time of birth, then you are a Jew. Or if you formerly convert, you are a Jew. If a person doesn't meet this specific criteria, they aren't Jewish. Also, in Judaism, certain things are not allowed. Once certain lines are crossed, a person is no longer Jewish.

None of this is ambiguous and none of this is for PR. A Jew isn't allowed to say, "you are not Jewish" just because they think someone is living in sin, or not practicing, or because they are worried that that Jew is giving Judaism a bad name. On very rare occasions, someone will be excommunicated, as in the case of Spinoza, but it's always formal and put into writing.

To my knowledge, there are no people from another religion that pose as Christians in an attempt to win converts. If there was some group, like the "Mohammidic Christians," who were actually Muslims posing as Christians in an attempt to lure Christians into their mosques to convert them to Islam, then you could rightly point at them at say, "They are not Christians."

But this is not the case. When you say "Of course there are people who claim to be Christian and are not," your not point your finger at dishonest Muslim evangelicals. What you are doing is pointing your finger at your fellow Christian and personally judging them to be unfit to call themselves Christians.

It's not a "protestant way", it's a common sense (and Biblical) way. Look at Ananias and Sapphira.

I don't see Catholics acting this way. At least not in the present century. I don't see Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindis, or anyone else acting this way. Only Protestant Christians.

And they don't stop with other congregations. In plenty fo Protestant Churches, people point the finger at each other.

And it's not always based upon a person's moral or ethical diposition. Often times its based upon how a person dresses or how charismatic or popular they are. In charismatic and evangelical Churches, there is a strong emphasis on proselytizing and "winning souls" and less attractive people are often accused of being fakes but their lack of an ability to win converts. Pointing the finger and claiming someone isn't a true Christian is rampant in these churches.

 

[realtruth101]

your right its broke.....especially if your part of the Harlot or her daughters, come out of her says the Lord! organized religion is just selling the gospel to profit deep pocketed smooth talkers who want to live large at the expense of the sheep. follow Christ alone, It looks broke because it is

 

[solarwave]

I have the same feeling. Justsomedude has left Christianity. I hope he isn't justifying his choice by deciding that all of Christianity -- or all protestant faiths -- are broken. People are broken. "The church" is the body of all Christians. If we believe in Christ and honour His message then we are on the right path.

Yeah. I'm quite happy to call someone a Christian if they try to follow Christs teachings and believe in God.

 

[Justsomedude]

Well all I can say is the next Messiah on the horizen will be the antichrist, since you reject Jesus as the one true Messiah

You must have wondered in from another conversation as this has nothing at all to do with anything in this thread as far as I can tell.

By "antichrist" I am assuming you mean the beast 666 who was written about in the 13th Chapter of Revelation. That was about the Roman Emperor Nero who was alive at the time that Revelation was written and persecuting Christians.

The Christian concept of the messiah differs greatly from the Jewish concept of the Messiah. As it is, Jesus didn't do anything at all to fulfill the requirements of the Jewish Messiah.

.......best of luck......just remember when getting your hand stamped, you knew about all this before you deconverted

Historically, whenever antimessiahs appeared the scene, they always went about trying to either exile Jews from their territory or exterminate them. We have no reason whatsoever to think the next antimessiah will be any different. I personally think the next antimessiah will arrise in the Muslim world and when he does, his goal will be nothing short of the total destruction of the state of Israel.

 

[Justsomedude]

But can Catholicism split? The first time it split one side remained called Catholic and the other was whatever denomination it became. If Catholicism were to split again I suspect the same thing would happen. One group would become protestant (by definition of not being Catholic) and a Catholic group would remain. So if anyone in the Catholic church does protest again the church they become protestants.

And so don't protest. Don't leave the Church. If you leave the Church, you leave the religion. If you disagree with the leadership of the Church, work from the inside to change it. Leaving the Church is giving up the fight.

Can I equally say that Lutheranism has remained unified and other denominations split from them?

Yes, you could actually. I conceed that.

I don't know enough about Judaism to comment much on it. What is it that makes a Jew a Jew?

If your mother is Jewish at your time of birth, you are Jewish. If you are not born Jewish, you have to convert. Converting is not instant but takes a minimum of a year and maybe longer. I know of conversions that have taken as long as 14 years. Once a conversion is complete, you are a Jew for the rest of your life unless you do something that is strictly not allowed. Even if you stop attending synagogue and even if you stop believing in G-d, you are still a Jew. People might identify you as a unobservant or secular Jew, but you are still a Jew. Converting to Christianity is not allowed and neither is publishing books stating that the Torah is now defunct (that's what got Spinoza excommunicated). I am unaware of any other reason that might get one excommunicated.

Isn't this what alot of people do though?

Yes, it is. I'm not saying that I am right. I like the Anglicans because I see them as being one of the most reasonable sects of Christianity and also because I am of British ancestry and so am kind of prejudiced toward my own kind. Not saying it's right, just being honest.

I simply consider myself Christian and I think I would be welcomed as a brother in many Christian denominations. They might disagree with my beliefs but could at least consider me Christian.

But many would not.

The protestant church isn't a church any more than the western church is a church.

Yes I know, that's the problem.

The word "church" means the Christian people. What you are, in essence, saying is there is no Christian People. There are Christian individuals and sometimes Christian groups of individuals, but Christians as a group are not a People.

Jews are a people. Regardless of what congregation or branch of Judaism they belong to, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.

Yeah the antagonism is annoying, but doesn't make them wrong.

I'm not so sure about that. If fact, I am quite sure that the opposite is true.

In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus is asked about the two greatest commandmets. His reply was "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In John 13:34-35 , it says, "“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

If Christians don't get anything else right, they need to get this right. If Christians can't stick together, look out for each and have each others backs, nothing else they do amounts to anything. A house divided against itself will not stand.

Have you had a bad experience by any chance? Its just that I don't get this feeling.

I grew up in a Christian Church and let's just say that under no circumstances would I ever even consider repeating the experience.

 

[Justsomedude]

I have the same feeling. Justsomedude has left Christianity. I hope he isn't justifying his choice by deciding that all of Christianity -- or all protestant faiths -- are broken. People are broken. "The church" is the body of all Christians. If we believe in Christ and honour His message then we are on the right path.

When people deconvert from a religion, often times they will give their historical, logical, and evidential reasons for deconverting. But people never convert in or out of religion if they are happy. If you are happy, why would you want to change things? People convert into a religion because they are looking for something and back out again if they don't find it. The technical reasons are just intellectual justifications for doing so.

 

[Aibrean]

It doesn't work that way. With Catholicism you can get kicked out. Luther was excommunicated. That doesn't mean he left the Church (because he certainly did not stop believing in Christ). He just left the Catholic church (by force).

 

[joanofarc1182]

This is the problem with todays churches! neither Paul nor the apostles ever taught such a blasphemous thing! This "sinners prayer" is a modern day invention going back only a little more than a hundred years. These are the last days, what does the Bible say about the last days? the world will be corrupt! this includes churches, they will be filled with apostates, people heaping for themselves teachers having itching ears.

know this, that NO man or a woman who is a true Christian (follower of Christ) knowingly or purposefully will hurt another person, they will rather get hurt themselves, a Christian will give his own food if he sees his neighbor hungry, a Christian follow Christ and only desires Him, churches are FILLED with people who "prayed a prayer and asked Jesus to come into their heart" who are UNCONVERTED and are bound for hell, yet they come to church every sunday and raise their arms and sing. and most believe that once saved always saved. NO, a true Christian does think effically because the Holy Spirit guides him. those who do not have the Holy Spirit do not belong to God and His Christ, though they may go to church and do all sorts of things and call themselves Christians and pray to God, yet they are dead while they live if the fruits of obedience and love, the fruits of the Spirit are not within them, then they will soon get cut down and thrown into the fire. This is Biblical.

 

[Justsomedude]

It doesn't work that way.

Not sure what you mean by this.

With Catholicism you can get kicked out.

That's a good thing. It keeps people in line. There are some things that should not be overlooked or tolerated.

Luther was excommunicated. That doesn't mean he left the Church (because he certainly did not stop believing in Christ). He just left the Catholic church (by force).

Although I agree with part of the 95 Thesus, I think his approach was wrong. He should have listened to Erasmus. I don't know if excommunication was justified or not, I'm undecided, but in the present era, I am totally unaware of any good reason for either the Lutherans or Anglicans to remain protestant. I do know that Luther was responsible for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I don't know if that was before or after his excommunication. If it was before, that alone justified excommunication.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

As far as Roman Catholicism goes, we can consider the Ultrajectines, i.e. the Old Catholic Churches which regarded the move toward Papal Infallibility as defined at the First Vatican Council as a dissent from orthodox Catholicism, the Sedevacantists rejected the reforms at the Second Vatican Council and regard all popes since John XXIII as anti-popes, illegitimate and fallen into heresy. The Conciliarists of the 15th and 16th centuries rejected the growth of authority held by the Pope, arguing that the traditional Christian position was that supremacy was in the unified consensus of the Christian Faithful in the form of general or ecumenical councils, not in the office of the Roman Bishop (the position, by the way, still maintained by the Eastern Orthodox and other Eastern Churches).

The Protestant Reformation, therefore, more-or-less stands in a long line of reform movements, that includes Conciliarism, Hussism and Ultrajectinism; though there are certainly very distinct motives with these movements they were, nonetheless, not attempts to fragment the Catholic Church in the West, but were movements toward reform.

These were intra-Catholic issues, all of them. Conciliarists believed in the essential purpose of the general council as authoritative, Jan Hus and the Hussites argued that the Eucharist was to be celebrated in both kinds, Luther argued that the integrity of the Gospel was on the line, Ultrajectines believed papal authority was growing too strongly, etc. None desired to reject the Church, none desired to cease being Catholic, all regarded themselves loyal children of the Holy Catholic Church.

-CryptoLutheran