Is Christianity broke?

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

I was born to protestant Christian parents, brought up in a protestant Christian home and attended a protestant Christian Church, accepted Christ into my heart at age 10 and was a born again protestant Christian up until the age of 23. Then I left the Church and deconverted.

Upon learning that I deconverted, a lot of Christians will start by asking, "Is it because you got hurt?" or "Did you get burned by a bad Church?" or something else along the same line.

When asked this, my thinking is that getting hurt and burned by Christians must be a pretty regular occurance. Otherwise, people wouldn't think to ask this.

I have two questions concerning this:
1. Doesn't this suggest that Christiantiy is a broken religion in the sense that Christians do not actually know how live any more moral or ethical than anyone else?

2. Let's suppose that this really happened. In that case, one thing that I would be certain of about Christiantiy is that Christians hurt and burn each other. And so why would I want to return to Christianity and risk having it happen again?

Aibrean · Mar 18, 2011

Christians are "broke". We are still sinners and not capable of being perfect while we are in this present life. There are people who are Christian in name only and there are those who profess, confess, and live as Christians but they are still sinners.

When you return, you are retuning to Christ....not the people around you. You need to understand that difference.

HisHomeMaker · Mar 18, 2011

Aibrean said:
When you return, you are retuning to Christ....not the people around you. You need to understand that difference.

I agree.

Christ is the way. Find a community that brings you close to Him.

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

Aibrean said:
Christians are "broke". We are still sinners and not capable of being perfect while we are in this present life. There are people who are Christian in name only and there are those who profess, confess, and live as Christians but they are still sinners.

That's an excuse and not a good one. People are broke and so turned to religions to get repaired. If Christians are, as a general rule, still broke, their religion isn't doing the job.

When you return, you are retuning to Christ....not the people around you. You need to understand that difference.

Except for the Church is the body of Christ. Returning to Christianity does mean rejoining the Christian community.

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

Aibrean said:
Christians are "broke". We are still sinners and not capable of being perfect while we are in this present life. There are people who are Christian in name only and there are those who profess, confess, and live as Christians but they are still sinners.

When you return, you are retuning to Christ....not the people around you. You need to understand that difference.

HisHomeMaker said:
I agree.

Christ is the way. Find a community that brings you close to Him.

Abrean seems to be saying that being part of a Christian community is not important while you are saying to find a community. What exactly are you agreeing with here?

salida · Mar 18, 2011

Its not their religion you should be blaming but the individual-

Lukewarm Church
http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Jun07/Art_Jun07_20.html
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Lukewarm-American-Church&id=3112462
　
Are you a Real Christian or a Sunday Christian
http://www.rapture-soon.net/realchristian.html
　
Lukewarm Churches mirror society
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/alba/080710

This is how Jesus feels about it:
Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

There are churches that arn't lukewarm also.

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

salida said:
Its not their religion you should be blaming but the individual-

I do not expect people to be perfect but I do expect a religion to have rules in place to account for our imperfection.

drich0150 · Mar 18, 2011

Justsomedude said:
1. Doesn't this suggest that Christianity is a broken religion in the sense that Christians do not actually know how live any more moral or ethical than anyone else?

Christianity is not "broken" but the people who practice it often times are. Most people who have been burnt may not be able to distinguish between a broken church and the broken who try and serve at that church.

2. Let's suppose that this really happened. In that case, one thing that I would be certain of about Christianity is that Christians hurt and burn each other. And so why would I want to return to Christianity and risk having it happen again?

Because Christianity is as diverse as the people who practice it. If you were not born into a church of like minded Christ centered believers then maybe you should look beyond your current experience or understanding of the faith.

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

drich0150 said:
Christianity is not "broken" but the people who practice it often times are. Most people who have been burnt may not be able to distinguish between a broken church and the broken who try and serve at that church.

If Chrisitanity is not broken, then how can a Church get broken? Only by not following the rules. In which case, the authority that the Church answers to must step in and fix things.

But if there are no set rules on how to practice Christianity, Then there is nothing to prevent a church from getting broke. And if there is no higher authority, then there is no one to step in and correct the problem.

Because Christianity is as diverse as the people who practice it. If you were not born into a church of like minded Christ centered believers then maybe you should look beyond your current experience or understanding of the faith.

I never said that getting burned was the reason why I deconverted. Just that people assumed that. But why would they assume that unless it happened quite often?

drich0150 · Mar 18, 2011

Justsomedude said:
If Christianity is not broken, then how can a Church get broken? Only by not following the rules.

Click to expand...

That is just it true Christianity is not a set of rules it never was supposed to be. If it has become a set of strict rules then know it is what the bible defines as legalism. This is not the Christianity of the bible. This is simply the christianity of man, or it can be just another empty religion. It gets that way because some of the "broken" Need to feel as if they have earned their righteousness, as a trophy so that others may envy.

In which case, the authority that the Church answers to must step in and fix things.

Click to expand...

Not all "Churches" have a centralized leadership.
These are referred to as non-denominational churches.

But if there are no set rules on how to practice Christianity, Then there is nothing to prevent a church from getting broke. And if there is no higher authority, then there is no one to step in and correct the problem.

Click to expand...

There are two rules that all churches must have in the fore front of their faiths and doctrines.

One, Love the Lord God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit, and strength.

Two, Love your neighbor as yourself.

No Church adhering to these two solid laws of God have ever "broken."

Granted they may not all look the same or act the same or believe the same things, but if you ask me that was the whole point.

God in the beginning set up a fellow of believers with one set of rules and a very strict standard or way of caring out those rules. What resulted was the worship of those rules instead of God (Legalism.) So when people live and worshiped the word or ways of God rather than God Himself. This also had the effect of turning those in charge of God's laws and practices into kinda of a little mini god themselves.

So, now that we know why God does not want us to worship in a legalistic manner, He has set us up with a way that we can all worship and love to the extent of our individuality and personalities will allow, and not be subject to power hungry men.This is the true freedom that Christianity allows. We are so free infact we can even bind ourselves to legalism and still be found righteous before God, if infact that legalism is all that our Heart, Mind, Spirit, and strength will allow for us to understand.

I never said that getting burned was the reason why I deconverted. Just that people assumed that.

Click to expand...

I never assumed that. I was only responding to the way you worded your question.

But why would they assume that unless it happened quite often?

Click to expand...

Because there are many denominations and non-denominations who bind themselves in a legalistic manner and for those who do not understand that basics of Christianity, they can feel burnt if they do not or can not measure up.

Aibrean · Mar 18, 2011

Justsomedude said:
That's an excuse and not a good one. People are broke and so turned to religions to get repaired. If Christians are, as a general rule, still broke, their religion isn't doing the job.

Except for the Church is the body of Christ. Returning to Christianity does mean rejoining the Christian community.

If you are wanting a group of perfect people you aren't going to find them. That's my point. People aren't perfect. We are all sinners.

It's not a new concept.

1 Timothy 1:15

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

We can't on our own ever even try to do good. It's not something we are capable of. The Holy Spirit is the only thing than can enable us to do good (sanctification). We don't go to a religion to get "repaired". We go to Christ. The church is the BODY OF CHRIST. While yes, there is a community and fellowship, that doesn't mean all inside are members of the body. Christ isn't broken.

Justsomedude · Mar 18, 2011

Aibrean said:
If you are wanting a group of perfect people you aren't going to find them. That's my point. People aren't perfect. We are all sinners.

I think you are missing my point. I am not critizing Christian people here, but the Christian religion itself. I am not expecting the people to be perfect, only the rules. What I am suggesting is that the rules of Christianity are far from perfect.

We can't on our own ever even try to do good. It's not something we are capable of.

Sounds very self defeatist and self destructive to me. Nowadays, I can't begin to imagine waking up and trying to face the day with that kind of mind set. I wouldn't even get out of bed.

The Holy Spirit is the only thing than can enable us to do good (sanctification). We don't go to a religion to get "repaired". We go to Christ.

This makes no sense. First, going to Christ is part of the Christian religion, so there is no going to Christ without going to the Christian religion.

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST. While yes, there is a community and fellowship, that doesn't mean all inside are members of the body. Christ isn't broken.

Wrong. If someone is inside the body, they are a member. Even if they are a cancer.

If you are a member of the Catholic Church, you are a Catholic Christian. If you are a protestant, you don't even have to be a member of a Church, you only have to believe. And so everyone that says that they are a protestant Christian is just that, for all practical intents and purposes. You might not like everyone that claims to be a protestant Christrian but if you want me or any other nonChristian to accept you as a Christian, then you have to take them also. If you are going to insist that some people claiming to be Christians are not real, I see no reason to accept your claims to being a Christian.

This is prime example of why I think Christianity is broken. So many of you are always pointing your finger at each other and saying, "they are not real Christians." If I convert, how long is it until you start pointing your finger at me saying, "you're not a real Christian?" If that's part of Christianity, why even bother?

Also, if some of you are fakes, how do I know that there are any real Christians at all? Maybe every single one of you is a fake.

I have idea. How's about this? From now on, if you say that not all Christian are true Christians, then I will start by ruling you out as a real Christian. Do you think that is a good idea?

solarwave · Mar 19, 2011

Justsomedude said:
I have two questions concerning this:
1. Doesn't this suggest that Christiantiy is a broken religion in the sense that Christians do not actually know how live any more moral or ethical than anyone else?

What is Christianity? There is no one thing that is Christianity and there are a wide range of beliefs and attitude as I'm sure you know. Some Christian beliefs and attitudes are broken.

Still after saying all this it doesn't seem that the average Christian is much more moral than the average atheist. To be honest it is really hard to say without a detailed survey about moral beliefs, intentions and ethical reasoning of a large number of people. Also I think it is fair to say people of different beliefs emphasise different areas of morality more than others. As well as this there are Christians of different maturities of spirituality.

So for now I'll just say that Christianity gives a strong foundation for morality.

2. Let's suppose that this really happened. In that case, one thing that I would be certain of about Christiantiy is that Christians hurt and burn each other. And so why would I want to return to Christianity and risk having it happen again?

Not all Christians are like this. I have never experienced it. Also one of the main points of Christianity is to bring us closer to God, not necessarily to get warm fuzzy feelings from people at church (though community is important).

Aibrean · Mar 19, 2011

Members of the body of Christ are not those who are members of a church. Christ is not going to allow people who do not believe in him or confess him into his house (at the end of time). You can say you are a member of a church all you want, it comes down to your heart if you actually are. You can even say you believe, but that doesn't mean you really do.

CryptoLutheran · Mar 20, 2011

We are a broken, dysfunctional family of sinful people desperately trying to follow Jesus as His Church, His community of disciples--ever failing at that task and ever trusting that wherever our shortcomings be (and they are many and multiple) there is grace that sustains us and pulls us to continue in pursuit of Jesus.

Yes, getting hurt in the Church is regular and tragic, but it is also the hospital for sinners and Christ is both Physician and Medicine for us.

-CryptoLutheran

Justsomedude · Mar 20, 2011

My Conclusion: My conclusion right now is that Protestant Christianity is broken. The specific way that it is broken is that Prostestant Christians don't stick together. Instead they disown each other at every turn. They are always pointing their fingers at each other and accusing each other of being fakes.

There is a saying that the Christian Army is the army that shoots it's wounded.

What is ironic is that in one breath, protestants will claim that they aren't perfect but flawed human beings. But then, as soon as a protestant behaves in a less than perfect way, three fourths of his fellow protestants disown him, denying that he was ever even a Christian at all. It's okay to give lip service to not being perfect but it's not okay to not actually be perfect.

I will not convert to Protestant Christian because I am not perfect. Since I am not perfect, I am not good enough to be a protestant. I could fake it for a little while but the first time that I reveal just how very imperfect and flawed I am, I will be disowned because a real Christian would never do something so unChrist like as what I am bound to do, given that I am a flawed human being.

Also, I am not an island unto myself but have needs. I am sensetive. I need to be loved and I need to be able to trust that the people I call my family, my brothers and sisters, will not turn on me and kick me out of the family.

It would be extremely foolish of me to place myself into a situation where I could be harmed in this sort of way and so I will not convert.

I have not observed this behavior in Catholics. Catholics, as far as I have observed, do not turn and disown each other left and right. Not saying that the Catholic Church is perfect (its far from perfect) but this behavior does not appear to be among their flaws.

solarwave · Mar 20, 2011

Justsomedude said:
My Conclusion: My conclusion right now is that Protestant Christianity is broken. The specific way that it is broken is that Prostestant Christians don't stick together. Instead they disown each other at every turn. They are always pointing their fingers at each other and accusing each other of being fakes.

Well thats nice and all, accept that it is wrong. This seems much like saying you don't want to be english, american, or french because some people in those countries don't love people like they should. There isn't anything which is Protestant, it is just a label which applies to a number or types of churchs. My church is a family and I am sure that there are other churchs like it.

Justsomedude · Mar 20, 2011

solarwave said:
Well thats nice and all, accept that it is wrong. This seems much like saying you don't want to be english, american, or french because some people in those countries don't love people like they should.

That analogy doesn't quite fit. It's more along the lines that I don't want to move to a country that is in a 5 way civil war, I don't want to marry a woman who has been divorced 34 times and I don't want to move in with someone that will kick me back out onto the street the very next day.

There isn't anything which is Protestant, it is just a label which applies to a number or types of churchs.

A protestant church is one that is neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic. I know nothing whatsoever about Eastern Orthodox. I do know that Catholics have well defined rules about who is and who isn't Catholic and I have never known of a Catholic to accuse a fellow Catholic of being a fake.

As Catholicism is the oldest denomination of Christianity, they have a historical legitmacy that the other branches lack. Catholicism is also the largest denomination, making up half of Christianity.

This combined with the failure of Protestants to either agree on a univeral doctrine or to stick together like a family leads me to conclude Catholicism is the most legitmate form of Christianity.

Aibrean · Mar 20, 2011

Well apparently you've never heard of Catholic Voodoo in Haiti. We don't need a history lesson. Perhaps you do (the Crusades for one). There were legitimate flaws. That's not to say we should be comparing the Catholics of the past to the present but when you start putting history into the mix you should. That is why Martin Luther protested - he wanted to expose the flaws (as a Catholic himself) and he accused them of being "fake".

Martin Luther said:
Since the papal church not only neglects the command of Christ but even compels the people to ignore it and to act against it, it is certain that it is not Christ’s church but the synagogue of Satan which prescribes sin and prohibits righteousness. It clearly and indisputably follows that it must be the abomination of Antichrist and the furious harlot of the devil.

solarwave · Mar 20, 2011

Justsomedude said:
That analogy doesn't quite fit. It's more along the lines that I don't want to move to a country that is in a 5 way civil war, I don't want to marry a woman who has been divorced 34 times and I don't want to move in with someone that will kick me back out onto the street the very next day.

And how is Catholicism free from this? Because it kept the historic name?

It could be said that it is Christianity which has split into different roads. Do you not want to be a Christian because of this?

What reason do you have to think that if you join Anglicanism (for example) that they would kick you out? Some people have been part of that church for their whole lives and are happy with it.

A protestant church is one that is neither Eastern Orthodox nor Catholic. I know nothing whatsoever about Eastern Orthodox. I do know that Catholics have well defined rules about who is and who isn't Catholic and I have never known of a Catholic to accuse a fellow Catholic of being a fake.

Lets say the Western Churches are the Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches (which is true). Now is Eastern Orthodoxy the better choice because the Catholic Church is part of a group that splits?

But then the Catholic Church and Eastern Church split from each other at one point and so makes the Eastern Church part of the splits you don't like. I think the best thing to say is that Christianity has splits in its belief systems, but within those belief systems it is pretty stable most of the time.

As Catholicism is the oldest denomination of Christianity, they have a historical legitmacy that the other branches lack. Catholicism is also the largest denomination, making up half of Christianity.

They are the oldest Western Church at most.

This combined with the failure of Protestants to either agree on a univeral doctrine or to stick together like a family leads me to conclude Catholicism is the most legitmate form of Christianity.

But the Catholics havn't agreed with Protestants either, as part of the Western group; and East and West havn't agreed including Oriental Orthodoxy as part of the Christianity group. Then you have the split between Christianity and Judaism, and Islam also claims decent from Abraham.

My point is that if you group things up in the right way you can see lots of splits.

The Catholic church holds together more because it has a Pope and people who disagree with the Catholic church by definition become Protestant (or one of the other large groups). This means that you don't see splits in the Catholic church (other than the reformation) because people who do disagree with doctrine or who are rejected turn to Protestantism generally.

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