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Is Christian Rock, really Christ-like?

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bleechers

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Christian music has exploded in the last 10 years and I believe God has blessed it.

Qualify and quantify this...

In the last 10 years, ecumenism (the bad kind) has exploded; "seeker-sensitive" preaching has surpassed gospel (i.e. biblical) preaching; false teachers have grown greater in power and influence; godless Psychology has crept into the church and has replaced the Bible as the sourse of counseling in much of the church; discernment has become a lost doctrine; separation has become a bad word...

In almost all of these instances, CCM has played a part. Remember, I don't blame the medium, but the industry (on the whole) is weak, childish, simplistic, anti-doctrinal and ecumenical.

I hear things like "hey, man, he might not know about doctrine, but he really loves Jesus." and "They don't shove God down people's throats. Doctrine divides." etc...

This is what happens when nobody is held accountable for what they say or do. This is what has happened to CCM in the past decade. Check out the thread on Carman in the contemporary music forum... I pointed out his false doctrine and all I got was stuf like "touch not, God's anointed" and similar unbiblical (ripped from its context) drivel.

Learn to Discern!!

The NT repeatedly warns that false doctrine will arise from within and deceive many. CCM has been a key conduit.

:sigh:
 
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Carl Carlson

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BT said:
Be very careful with this line of thinking. Very very very careful.
BT, you should understand that when I say "God puts in us", I mean, "God puts in us".
This doesn't include everything, as some may contend. That God made everything, so everything is good. What I mean to say is "Spirit-breathed" and "God-revealed". This is different than what humans have done from the fall.
I appreciate the precautionary warning, I know where you're coming from.
Thanks and God Bless.
 
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Carl Carlson

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bleechers said:
In the last 10 years, ecumenism (the bad kind) has exploded; "seeker-sensitive" preaching has surpassed gospel (i.e. biblical) preaching; false teachers have grown greater in power and influence; godless Psychology has crept into the church and has replaced the Bible as the sourse of counseling in much of the church; discernment has become a lost doctrine; separation has become a bad word...

In almost all of these instances, CCM has played a part. Remember, I don't blame the medium, but the industry (on the whole) is weak, childish, simplistic, anti-doctrinal and ecumenical.

The NT repeatedly warns that false doctrine will arise from within and deceive many. CCM has been a key conduit.
Please explain how Christian Music has had such a large impact on your complaints. Also, do you believe Christian Music is to blame or something else?
 
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bleechers

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Please explain how Christian Music has had such a large impact on your complaints. Also, do you believe Christian Music is to blame or something else?

Last first: Not to blame on its own, but it has been one way that the problems that I have noted have been introduced into the church.

Ecumenical: This is an easy one. Apart from Steve Camp (who was ostracized once he realized his years of error) the industry frowns upon making any doctrinal distinctions. To do so is heresy in CCM circles. One of the gods of CCM, Rich Mullins, mocked the faith, blasted "Evangelicals" in the third person, and pronounced works as being "salvific". He made fun of being "born again" as we understand it.

Was Rich ever called to account for his views in CCM? No way.

Carman has consistently preached false doctrine in his music. He blasphemes God in his videos and nobody cares! I point out specific false doctrines in his music and videos and all I get is grief (as noted above). The examples are almost endless in CCM

Simplistic: the Praise and Worship craze is quite interesting because the songs have very little actual praise or worship in them. The songs are so generic, Mormons can use many of them. Half the time, I'm not sure if God or if someone's girlfriend is the focus of the song.

Weak: Third Day badly misuses a scripture on a song and nobody cares. Why? Because nobody EVER cares what these people do with scripture or with doctrine. I even think that Third Day is probably one of the better bands in CCM, but even they are not immune to grave error.

The Newsong Christmas classic "Christmas Shoes" is so horrendously weak and doctrinally inconsequential that CBS made it into a Christmas special. It is sung by heretics and gospel-denyers of all stripes. That, on its own, does not necessarily disqualify it, but you can't even go to the text to explain why these non-belivers are misusing it.

It's not the music, it's the industry. The industry rewards weakness (with a few exceptions). Songs attacking the true church are lauded as "brave". Saying that you don't "get in anyone's face" somehow makes you "unique" (depite everybody saying it!). See Jaci Valasquez's #1 hit.

The eldermikes of the world are the exception (and he's not part of the "industry" anyway). The big CCM bands are generally ignorant of scripture, weak on doctrine and can't tell a Mormon from a Baptists (or think that the differences are meaningless).

This is an answer done in generalities for sake of space. There are some good guys out there, but they are neither the "heroes" nor the pace-setters in the industry.
 
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Carl Carlson

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Thanks Bleechers, I now have a better understanding of your point. I agree with some of the things that you have stated. There will obviously never be only Christians flying their banner in the Christian Music genre, and yes, none of them are perfect. Which to me, means that they are human. Perhaps many problems have risen in the church as a result of Christian bands, I don't know specifics, but I'm sure that it's happened. I don't listen to any of the specific artists that you've listed except for Third Day I have listened to some. I also have some problems with some of the Christian Music out there, but I don't completely trash it as false doctrine or heresy. I know that there are wolves among the sheep and there are tares among the wheat. I know that God will take care of that and I need to concern myself with having a watchful eye and be sure I am living by faith. I will admit not all Christian music is good, but I refuse to discount it all. God has raised up a generation that will shine their light before all men, even if it means persecution. Some of the problems that you're describing indicate that the end is getting closer and the enemy is picking up the attack.

bleechers said:
Simplistic: the Praise and Worship craze is quite interesting because the songs have very little actual praise or worship in them. The songs are so generic, Mormons can use many of them. Half the time, I'm not sure if God or if someone's girlfriend is the focus of the song.
The vast majority of Christian Music that I listen to is Praise and Worship. I sing to and for God. I've been listening to less and less of the Christian Rock for some of the reasons that you've mentioned, but more for the sake of what God is calling me to. I'm not sure what P&W songs you're listening to, but I don't think that they're the same ones that I'm listening to. The songs I know are not generic, mormons probably stay away from them and it definetly isn't in the dark about who the focus is on. It's God, not the girlfriend, if you were wondering.

All that I can say is to find the music that you can bring glory to God with. Also, we can pray that God will make changes in the music that we view as Christian and to bring us all into His light on the issue.

I applaud the work that some of the Christian artists are doing to bring glory to God and the unsaved into His fold.

Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Psalm 40:3
He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD .

Psalm 96:1
Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth.

Isaiah 42:10
Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Revelation 14:3
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

Also Psalm 98:1, 144:9, and 149:1

Thank you for your time and may God Bless all of you.
 
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BT

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Carl Carlson said:
BT, you should understand that when I say "God puts in us", I mean, "God puts in us".
This doesn't include everything, as some may contend. That God made everything, so everything is good. What I mean to say is "Spirit-breathed" and "God-revealed". This is different than what humans have done from the fall.
I appreciate the precautionary warning, I know where you're coming from.
Thanks and God Bless.
Yer welcome
 
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bleechers

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but I don't completely trash it as false doctrine or heresy

Neither did I. :)

I told you I was generalizing for the sake of space. If I didn't make it clear, I play and write CCM and I'm in my church's Praise Band.

I'm not sure what P&W songs you're listening to, but I don't think that they're the same ones that I'm listening to. The songs I know are not generic,

This is my "filter" argument. As Christians, I believe we can even make the cry of the wolf to cause Praise for God in our hearts... that is, many of the P&W songs are written to carefully avoid doctrine (unlike the hymns), but since we "filter" them, they can indeed cause us to rejoice.

With that being said, it doesn't exonerate the music or the musicians.

The Rich Mullins/Carman examples are given to illustrate that the CCM world just doesn't care about doctrine. Its absense in P&W songs is accepted because even when CCM is openly heretical, nobody seems to care. So you and I can "filter" P&W music through sound doctrine and find true Praise... but on its own, it can be very generic. IOW - On its own, it offers a generic "god".

:)
Thanks for the thoughts.
 
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Carl Carlson

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bleechers said:
Neither did I. :)

:)
Thanks for the thoughts.
You're right, you didn't. And you're welcome. Thanks for your post, I've come even closer to understanding your point and I agree with the filter, which is something that we all need to do in every aspect of our lives, music included. Just because it says "Christian" on it, doesn't make it good for us.

Thanks and may God reveal to us what is unseen and guide us along our pathway. God bless.
 
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SumTinWong

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Went to Kingdom Bound yesterday and spent the day with some great kids, who have a true heart for God. Now that is a generalization for sure, but from what I could see Jesus was being preached and kids were lifting Holy hands and rejoicing in teh Spirit of God.

As far as the music. I really enjoyed Jeremy Camp, but I am hoping that the rest of CM does not sway towards being STP, or Creed clones. Petra was way too loud, and to be honest until they sang one og the songs from the Praise album I was waiting till it ended. Now the main act was the Newsboys. I hadn't really heard of them, but I was blown away, by not only the music but the message. I tell you what, you can tell by the message of not only the songs but of the testimonies of their lives that these guys love God.

I am and will continue to be a fan of Christian Music, in any form.
 
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bleechers

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I personally dont like it ...... people get into the dancing and not the actully lyrics of the song to fully praise God with it

Well, as I've said, if you're not into it, you're not missing much...

===============

Hey, isn't your mood smilie the symbol for dancing? :p
 
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SumTinWong

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l3lake06 said:
I personally dont like it ...... people get into the dancing and not the actully lyrics of the song to fully praise God with it
Something to think about. David was known for his dancing in and carrying on, when he sang to God. God considered him a man after his own heart.

The show I was at the other night, I saw 5,000 sets of hands lifted in the air singing "You are Holy, You are worthy" to their God. I think that your statement was unfair, in that not everyone does what you said. There are a great many who I believe do listen and do worship.
 
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Carl Carlson

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Dancing can be and IS worship to God. I wouldn't scoff or judge how people worship their Lord and Savior. Personally, when I think of where I was, where I am now and where I'm going...forgive me, but I get pretty excited! I sing, I DANCE, I SHOUT!!!

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see!!! I deserve death, but because of Jesus, I don't have to go to hell! I'm going to heaven to see Jesus!!!!

Nothing like getting filled with the Holy Ghost and praising God from your heart...however your praise is being displayed...


PRAISE THE LORD!
 
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Ave Maria

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I think some Christian Rock is Christ-like but the majority isn't. I have listened to Christian Rock before and I rarely here Christ or salvation even mentioned! Maybe it's just me but I think there is much better music out there than Christian Rock.
 
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Iollain

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How can there be a better music than Christian rock for a person who only likes music of the rock style? We have a local CHristian radio here and the only time i like it is when they are playing praise and worship music of the rock style (or Southern Gospel) I just don't like other styles of music, what can ya do? When the old songs that are sung in church in the same old way were first composed, they were new songs that were up to date in their time, not that i mind them, but when an artist takes those songs and sing then in a new way, i usually like them a lot better.
 
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Ave Maria

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Iollain said:
How can there be a better music than Christian rock for a person who only likes music of the rock style? We have a local CHristian radio here and the only time i like it is when they are playing praise and worship music of the rock style (or Southern Gospel) I just don't like other styles of music, what can ya do? When the old songs that are sung in church in the same old way were first composed, they were new songs that were up to date in their time, not that i mind them, but when an artist takes those songs and sing then in a new way, i usually like them a lot better.
I suppose that for some people, Christian Rock suits them best. But for me, I prefer Christian Contemporary Music, modern and some traditional hymns, and Praise and Worship songs.
 
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BT

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Something to think about. David was known for his dancing in and carrying on, when he sang to God. God considered him a man after his own heart.
Well personally I can only find or recall one incident of David dancing, at that was at the return of the Ark of the Covenant. I don't know that he was known for his carrying on.

God did not consider David a man after his own heart because of dancing, singing or carrying on.

God sought a man who would obey his will unlike king Saul

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

It was that David would fulfil the will of God that God considered him a man after his own heart...

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Albert Barnes states it very well..

Ac 13:22
Verse 22. And when he had removed him. This was done because he rebelled against God in sparing the sheep and oxen and valuable property of Amalek, together with Agag the king, when he was commanded to destroy all, 1Sa 15:8-23. He was put to death in a battle with the Philistines, 1Sa 22:1-6. The phrase, "when he removed him," refers probably to his rejection as a king, and not to his death; for David was anointed king before the death of Saul, and almost immediately after the rejection of Saul on account of his rebellion in the business of Amalek. See 1Sa 6:12-13.
He gave testimony. He bore witness, 1Sa 13:14.
I have found David, etc. This is not quoted literally, but contains the substance of what is expressed in various places. Comp. 1Sa 13:14, with Ps 89:20; 1Sa 16:1,12.
A man after mine own heart. This expression is found in 1Sa 13:14. The connexion shows, that it means simply a man who would not be rebellious and disobedient as Saul was, but would do his will, and keep his commandments. This refers, doubtless, rather to the public than to the private character of David; or to his character as a king. It means, that he would make the will of God the great rule and law of his reign, in contradistinction from Saul, who, as a king, had disobeyed God. At the same time it is true that the prevailing character of David, as a pious, humble, devoted man, was, that he was a man after God's own heart, and was beloved by him as a saint and a holy man. He had faults; he committed sin; but who is free from it? He was guilty of great offences; but he also evinced, in a degree equally eminent, repentance, Ps 51:1-19 and not less in his private than his public character did he evince those traits which were prevailingly such as accorded with the heart, i.e., the earnest desires of God.
Which shall fulfil all my will. Saul had not done it. He had disobeyed God in a case where he had received an express command. The characteristic of David would be, that he would obey the commands of God. That David did this--that he maintained the worship of God, opposed idolatry, and sought to promote universal obedience to God among the people--is expressly recorded of him. 1Ki 14:8-9: "And thou [Jeroboam] hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes," etc., 1Ki 15:3,5.



Sorry to nit-pick :p
 
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