Is Christian Rock, really Christ-like?

[CrystalBrooke]

i personally dont listen to christian rock, i dont listen to the regular rock, ok exept for switch foot, but its only the 1 song...n e ways, i think christian rock is just as annoying as Metallica's music...but then again you cant deny that the sound appeals to a larger audience today. i dont think its the worst thing to ever happen to chritianity...perhaps its for the better...just maybe, im not quite sure yet...

 

[BT]

ROFL OracleX. You agree with everyone. I guess that's what makes you easy to get along with!

 

[BT]

Ok I've got up on the reading.

In a word... Ack!

I'll start to reply now.

did I mention... Ack!

 

[BT]

Well the reason for that semi rant is because I am in a Christian rock band and I think I'm far from being the worst thing that happened to Christianity. To me that was just an unintelligent remark.

Oh my friend you should have left off where you were. Because now you've said that "you" are the worst thing that has happened to Christianity. Which is not what I said. I have not said one thing to this point about Christian Rock Musicians. You see... you have a separation problem... You are not the music you play. I don't often make unintelligent remarks, but it does happen. This however is not one of those times.

 

[OracleX]

Easy to get along with ... lol not everyone would agree with that I didn't agree with you but we still have a blast.

I agree with a lot of points on this on both sides. This is one of those topics where there isn't a cut and dry answer or stand in my mind so I am open to the different views.

 

[BT]

So do most "Pastors" but we don't do away with them!

We ought to! Or at least correct them!

CCM is filled with confusion, false doctrine and milk-shake Christianity. I have to agree wholeheartedly there (since I debate its adherents all the time).

So, let me agree with this statement on its face because the whole church is headed in this direction. Books, programs, music, seminaries have moved away from the commands of scriptures and the end result is what BT states above.

I think you've got my point.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not the medium, it's the message. CCM is currently weak, loaded with questionable doctrine, and built upon the false pillars of (a) "positive messages" are better than "in your face" lyrics and (b) don't get hung up on doctrine, it's all about love. This is the problem, not the music.

In your opinion. Does music (talking about the music not lyrics) appeal to the flesh or the spirit or the soul, or some combination of two or three or ..?

You wanna see this... go to the Contemporary Music forum. I am known there as the stalwart of the PREACH THE GOSPEL, DEFEND THE FAITH, CORRECT FALSE DOCTRINE wing of CCM (we're a lonely group).

Awesome ^

"Christian" books, DVDs, Bible-studies and radio ministries are also full of tripe, but we don't throw out all books, DVDs, etc.

You're right but we ought to throw away particular genres of "Christian" books, DVDS, Bible-studies even (YES I said it!).

I am a CCM musician. I teach "learn to discern". Check out the Carman thread if you wanna see what's missing in CCM (and the church). What's missing is discernment. Nobody cares that they guy promotes false doctrine... but I do.

I would hope that my music would never lead anyone to conclude that it is "weak". If it is, I WELCOME correction! I even got blasted in the Poetry forum for posting the lyrics to my song "Sola Scriptura".

Keep on keeping on brother. IMO Carman is (I don't know if I can say this) an ijit, and you picked the perfect example of lots of joy and little brain.

I used to be on the "all rock music is bad" team until I was challenged to prove it from the scripture... which I couldn't... I have made more inroads into the CCM world by focusing on the doctrinal content of the songs and the statements of CCM musicians and then comparing them to scripture. All other criticisms such as "the back-beat affects the alpha waves in the brain" etc. are not built on the scripture, but on the theories of men and on Freudian psychanalysis.

True (sorta).

If there is a scriptural argument aginst the music, I'd be willing to consider it.

You'll never find a scripture that deals with "CCM" of course . Nor will you find a scriptural argument that says "Don't smoke crack" (though the two are not in the same group by any means). If you can't find a direct scripture for it you have to look at principles.

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

The question of which music is "secular" is non-trivial. Is music secular because the writer is secular? Because the topic is secular? There have been hymns written by non-believers - professional musicians working for money. There have been pieces written by devout believers, which have no overt religious context.

Is the Little G Minor Fugue, by Bach, a piece of secular music? There is more of God in it than there is in many of the hymns I once heard in church.

Is Jethro Tull's Hymn 43 secular? How would you even begin to answer that question?

i think music is secular when the writer is a nonbeliever. now, i know it gets a little muddled when a Christian artist does a song that is not about Christ or his walk with Him (Michael W. Smith has a song about his daughter on one of his cd's). Do i think because of that michaelwsmith should be labeled a secular artist? no.

if bach was a nonbeliever, it is a secular song. no matter how pretty it sounds. same with Jethro there. secular songs can be beautiful but that doesnt mean there is God in there. Embarrasingly enough, i love that song from the movie Titanic that Celene Dion sings (the love song). Would i say that is a Godly song cause i think its beautiful? no. and i would also not sing that trying to praise Jesus either. The words were never intended for His praise, but for a loved one.

when the song was written it was "born". No matter how we try to sing it, think about it, listen to it...it is still what it was when it was born-a secular song.

 

[BT]

Bleechers or ElderMike or someone else please answer this question...

CCM is for:

A. Christians

B. Unsaved people

C. fill in the blank with another option

 

[BT]

Easy to get along with ... lol not everyone would agree with that

'specially not your wife!

He shoots! .... He scores!

 

[OracleX]

'specially not your wife!

ROFL!! Did she tell you to say that?!

That was good...

 

[eldermike]

Bleechers or ElderMike or someone else please answer this question...

CCM is for:

A. Christians

B. Unsaved people

C. fill in the blank with another option

All Music used in worship services was at one time contemporary.
Doctrinal purity is an issue within the "Christian music world" . But, it always has been so. The reason is simple, it comes from all flavors of Christianity.

CCM is a pot full of stuff, some of it very good, some not so good.
There are some very good new songs. There are some terrible hymns. We could have a good time picking doctrinal errors from the latest hymnal or right off the radio.

Question for you: What would you think of a rock arrangement of higher ground?

Mike

 

[bleechers]

In your opinion. Does music (talking about the music not lyrics) appeal to the flesh or the spirit or the soul, or some combination of two or three or ..?

I believe that the recipient determines this. Many a choir dissolve in back-biting while singing nothing but "sacred music". Pride and "self" are enemies that can turn anything sour. Most of the big-name false teachers in teh church use the KJV (like I do), but that does not make the KJV "the bible of the heretic".

You could lock me in a room and play the entire Marilyn Manson catalog repeatedly and I guarantee you I won't come out anything but annoyed... in other words, I, as the recipient would not be affected as others might be.

But you make a valid point... we EACH need to examine our motives for doing WHATEVER we do. Do we listen to whatever music we listen to for reasons of edification or to feed the flesh? It is a good question that sits on Romans 14.

How many CCM-bashers feel superior because the don't listen to it? I dunno, but I bet there are some. Pride and self are insidious and know no genre.

Now, to be honest, I hate the truly hard, loud stuff, because if you can't understand the message then obviously the medium has overtaken the message. This should never happen. A preacher should never be larger than the message (Jn 3:33) and the music should never obscure the clear exclamation of God's counsel.

We ought to! Or at least correct them!

Yes, but we don't throw out all Pastors. We ought to chuck out false teachers in CCM too (see: Carman) and correct whomever would be corrected.

CCM is for:

The primary use of music in the NT is for the edification of the saints and in the OT it is the song of the redeemed. I think music that calls itself "Christian" can either be used to edify the saints (by reinforcing sound doctrine) or tell the story of redemption (for those who know not salvation).

You'll never find a scripture that deals with "CCM" of course . Nor will you find a scriptural argument that says "Don't smoke crack" (though the two are not in the same group by any means). If you can't find a direct scripture for it you have to look at principles.

Absotively! We need to look to scriptural principles. I can look to the principle of soberness in regard to the question of crack. I can look to the principle of modesty and the principle of lust=adultery to avoid pornography... As of yet, I have not discovered the "back-beat" principle.

Now, if someone decided never to listen to CCM... they wouldn't be missing much. But I could say the same about a whole lot that is passed off in the name of "Christianity"!

 

[BT]

All Music used in worship services was at one time contemporary.
Doctrinal purity is an issue within the "Christian music world" . But, it always has been so. The reason is simple, it comes from all flavors of Christianity.

Too bad there are 'flavors' of Christianity eh? But yeah I don't disagree with you.. but I thought we were talking about Christian Rock, presumably outside of the Church.

CCM is a pot full of stuff, some of it very good, some not so good.
There are some very good new songs. There are some terrible hymns. We could have a good time picking doctrinal errors from the latest hymnal or right off the radio.

You get no argument form me on that. And this is the issue. We should not be gathering our doctrine from Christian Rock, or Hymns, or Chorus'. We should be getting our doctrine from 'the foolishness of preaching'. You've hit the nail on the head, mabey by accident. Christian Rockers are not pastors! This is the huge issue.

Question for you: What would you think of a rock arrangement of higher ground?

Mike

I wouldn't run screaming if that's what you mean.... nor would I jump up on the table and yell "Devil! It's the Devil!"

umm..

Nor would I call up a bunch of unsaved people and play it for them expecting them to get saved by it. Nor would I play it Sunday Morning in the church.

 

[BT]

I believe that the recipient determines this.

Would you say that people at a Christian Rock concert act the same or differently from people at a secular rock concert (minus smokin pot etc.). Taking into consideration genre...

Many a choir dissolve in back-biting while singing nothing but "sacred music". Pride and "self" are enemies that can turn anything sour. Most of the big-name false teachers in teh church use the KJV (like I do), but that does not make the KJV "the bible of the heretic".

Amen and AMEN!

You could lock me in a room and play the entire Marilyn Manson catalog repeatedly and I guarantee you I won't come out anything but annoyed... in other words, I, as the recipient would not be affected as others might be.

You brother are strong. While some are weak. This is true for you but is it true for most? Mabey, mabey not.

But you make a valid point... we EACH need to examine our motives for doing WHATEVER we do. Do we listen to whatever music we listen to for reasons of edification or to feed the flesh? It is a good question that sits on Romans 14.

Amen to that. It's not just CCM that needs to be examined it's all areas of our lives and ministry! If we could get this point across.... wooo there'd be a return to truth.

How many CCM-bashers feel superior because the don't listen to it? I dunno, but I bet there are some. Pride and self are insidious and know no genre.

Agreed!

Now, to be honest, I hate the truly hard, loud stuff, because if you can't understand the message then obviously the medium has overtaken the message. This should never happen. A preacher should never be larger than the message (Jn 3:33) and the music should never obscure the clear exclamation of God's counsel.

Yes but someone who's into the heavy stuff and can understand the lyrics would fight you tooth and nail (as I'm sure you know) over this point.

Yes, but we don't throw out all Pastors. We ought to chuck out false teachers in CCM too (see: Carman) and correct whomever would be corrected.

Yes but easier said than done.. in both examples (Pastors and CCM'ers). Carman is immensly popular and I bet they jumped up and down on you when you talked about him eh?

The primary use of music in the NT is for the edification of the saints and in the OT it is the song of the redeemed. I think music that calls itself "Christian" can either be used to edify the saints (by reinforcing sound doctrine) or tell the story of redemption (for those who know not salvation).

Good answer!

Absotively! We need to look to scriptural principles. I can look to the principle of soberness in regard to the question of crack. I can look to the principle of modesty and the principle of lust=adultery to avoid pornography... As of yet, I have not discovered the "back-beat" principle.

I don't know that there is one. Usually people lean on "separation" for this principle.

Now, if someone decided never to listen to CCM... they wouldn't be missing much. But I could say the same about a whole lot that is passed off in the name of "Christianity"!

Bleechers we are on the same page, as usual! The problem as I see it is substituting CCM for a church, or seeing it as a "must have". There are other issues but I think you have a good handle on the concept and I think your idea of true doctrine and doctrine based/Bible based music is right-on. I also think, sadly, that you are the odd-ball of the bunch because of this.

 

[seebs]

if bach was a nonbeliever, it is a secular song.

But he was a believer.

no matter how pretty it sounds. same with Jethro there.

I think familiarity with the song matters a lot.

secular songs can be beautiful but that doesnt mean there is God in there.

when the song was written it was "born". No matter how we try to sing it, think about it, listen to it...it is still what it was when it was born-a secular song.

What about when Johnny Cash covered the Nine Inch Nails song Hurt? Seems to me that he turned it into a religious song, even though it wasn't originally.

I don't think songs in and of themselves are religious or secular. They have no beliefs. They have only what meaning we choose to give them. Much as we learn to see the face of Christ in those around us, we can learn to see God's creation and glory in all art. MHO.

 

[bleechers]

Would you say that people at a Christian Rock concert act the same or differently from people at a secular rock concert (minus smokin pot etc.). Taking into consideration genre...

Example one: "minus smokin' pot" that's "acting diferently is it not? (ha ha ha :0 ha ha ha).

Seriously, having been to both, I see your concern, but my simple answer is "yes".

This is true for you but is it true for most?

No, but the problem is that they are untaught (ungrounded). So the same people who would be influenced by weak or heretical music are the same people who would be influenced by weak and heretical teachers. Again, it is the state of the recipient that is the problem.

If we could get this point across.... wooo there'd be a return to truth.

Ah, another "if" that would warm the heart, but alas, I don't see it happening any time soon.

Yes but someone who's into the heavy stuff and can understand the lyrics would fight you tooth and nail (as I'm sure you know) over this point

They can and have!

Carman is immensly popular and I bet they jumped up and down on you when you talked about him eh?

I still have the scars... It's amazing, I noted three particular heresies in his music and nobody has yet addressed them. All I get is "touch not God's anointed!" (which I love since that term was originally applied to the disobedient King Saul!) and "Carman loves Jesus and has done so much for the Lord..." blah, blah, blah...

Joseph Smith would flourish if those were the rules!

I don't know that there is one. Usually people lean on "separation" for this principle.

I can kinda see that, but it is weak and, historically, it puts many of the hymns in jeopardy of being "guilty" of the same principle.

The problem as I see it is substituting CCM for a church, or seeing it as a "must have".

Oh no! It is certainly not a must-have! Yeesh! What a horrible thought!

I also think, sadly, that you are the odd-ball of the bunch because of this.

Well that's par for the course in today's church... I suspect you find yourself as the odd-man-out as often as I do in many areas of "Christendom". I read your posts on this topic with great thought, because when a sound brother speaks, attention must be paid!

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

But he was a believer.


then i would say, if the Holy Spirit was residing in him then it has God in it.


What about when Johnny Cash covered the Nine Inch Nails song Hurt? Seems to me that he turned it into a religious song, even though it wasn't originally.

I don't think songs in and of themselves are religious or secular. They have no beliefs. They have only what meaning we choose to give them. Much as we learn to see the face of Christ in those around us, we can learn to see God's creation and glory in all art. MHO.

i think that the meaning is what the author intended it to be. whether we want to interpret it in a different way does not change where it came from. there is a Nine Inch Nails song "Head like a hole" (known from my previous saved rockin' days). Some of the lyrics are "bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve..." Now, i KNOW that the writer of that song was not thinking about God when he wrote it- rather...um...he was thinking of certain...um...unGodly things. But-would that song be ok to sing at church if I said i was singing those lyrics about God (bowing down before Him)??? No.

Something is either from God or its not. There is no grey. no matter how our flesh wants to think so or no matter how good satan is working on decieving us.

I am really not nieve to this. I was just saved 7 years ago and had to throw out ALOT of CD's that the Holy Spirit convicted me was not of Him (Skid Row, Poison, all those other cheesy hair bands) i used to work with local bands and have a good understanding, IMO, of where these songs originate from.

 

[theseed]

Here is a related thread in this subforum.

http://www.christianforums.com/t681764

 

[eutychus]

Is Christian music really Christ-like?

If it is grounded in Scripture...
If it is theologically sound...
If it is ministering to others...
If it is *quality*...
If it is in the world, but not of, then yes.

Unfortunately, the Christian market doesn't uphold these when it produces tunes.

One of the problems I have is the label "Christian music." I have the same problem with "Christian books" or "Christian movies." It's music. If genres are defined by the music and not the type of lyrics, then that must mean that the Christian genre (as a whole) is composed of a bunch of bands that show little music ingenuity and talent.

 

[seebs]

i think that the meaning is what the author intended it to be.

This implies that it is the song which has meaning, not our experience of it. I don't buy that. Someone could write a song, secretly intending it to be blasphemous, trick us into thinking it was a worship song, and... No, I don't buy it.

whether we want to interpret it in a different way does not change where it came from. there is a Nine Inch Nails song "Head like a hole" (known from my previous saved rockin' days). Some of the lyrics are "bow down before the one you serve, your going to get what you deserve..." Now, i KNOW that the writer of that song was not thinking about God when he wrote it- rather...um...he was thinking of certain...um...unGodly things. But-would that song be ok to sing at church if I said i was singing those lyrics about God (bowing down before Him)??? No.

I think you've missed the point of the song, frankly. That song works on two levels; one is about capitalism. One is about Satan. In both cases, the point is that to serve such a thing is fundamentally stupid.

Head like a hole /
black as your soul /
I'd rather die /
Than give you control //
Bow down before the one you serve /
You're going to get what you deserve.

This is not, exactly, a ringing endorsement. In fact, it is a simple and direct condemnation of the entire idea of accepting immoral authority.

You must, in the end, choose whom you will serve. This song points out that there are things that do not deserve any allegiance.

Something is either from God or its not.

Did God create the universe? Yes. So, the universe is from God.

There is no grey. no matter how our flesh wants to think so or no matter how good satan is working on decieving us.

There may be no grey, but there is a great deal of room for us to change things. This is the whole point of Christianity, and of Paul's teachings on Christian liberty.

The meaning you find in a song is, for the most part, the meaning you bring to it.