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...My background is library information (unfortunately degree no use when living out in the country) which explains why online so frequently people assume I am male (do I type too logically or factually or something)?!...
It seems that even though I knew that you were a female, given that I am new to this forum and after a few hot sleepless nights I simply went by the Joey part as well.I am the *wife*.The wife of a shiftworker and Mum of two teenagers. Typing is generally done on the run. I tend to use the desktop for real entries.
That sounds like a modified kangaroo/wallaby version of those dangerous dropbears that Australians rightly warn foreigners about. Seriously though people should be more careful with kangaroos especially male ones. Google dangerous male kangaroo attacks.Ive heard that our northern neighbours (Queensland) have an affinity with kangaroos in that their children supposedly ride kangaroos to school as it can give them a hop-skip & jump to their day! If the rumour is true, the younger children ride the smaller greys while the older children ride the large six foot reds; some people apparently prefer Emu's as they have a wider body and as they are covered with feathers it apparently gives them a more comfortable ride or so the story goes!
That was a very informative link regarding those scurrilious dropbears. The map was certainly informative and I was surprised to see that Tasmania suffered from this horrible scourge - though I have heard that they have major problems with "loop snakes"; for our US readers, loop (or hoop) snakes have a nasty habit of biting their tails so that they act like a wheel which helps them to chase unwary tourists down a hill.That sounds like a modified kangaroo/wallaby version of those dangerous dropbears that Australians rightly warn foreigners about...
Having gone back and read through my post I can understand your uncertainty with my position.I'm not quite where you are. I think both "baptize(d) in the (Holy) Spirit" and "receive(d) the (Holy) Spirit" are used differently in different places. I'll elaborate later, assuming I don't forget.
Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions.As with many of my generation, it seems that the most common question that we had for our more experienced brethren was “How do I know that I have received the Holy Spirit?” The standard answer to this was always “because the Bible tells us so” which for many of us wasn’t really a reassuring reply but once I began to speak in tongues this left me with absolutely no doubt that I had the Holy Spirit within me. In my opinion, anyone who can speak in tongues who later questions if they have received the Holy Spirit, they may as well ask “How do I know that I really exist”.
Except for the question of experiencing signs & wonders I couldnt agree more, what a great question!Surely if the preachers/denominations that testify they are touched by the Holy Spirit/signs and wonders should be the best and holiest preachers and Christians of all? That is a very sincere question.
Except for the pro-signs element, considering the amount of time that I have spent in addressing Full Gospel theology then all I can say is glad to be able to help!Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions.
It would be fair to say, that even many experientially cessationist commentators will often bemoan the fact that from their experience that the Pentecostals and charismatics tend to show a greater spiritual passion and dedication than do those who are within their own ranks. This can certainly be evidenced by contrasting the New Calvinists with the Old Calvinists and this can be seen in post #2 with the Youtube link to Mark Driscoll.The most fervent Christians I have known are non-Charismatics. Why is that so?
Who was the Evangelical (non-charismatic) mega-church about two weeks ago in the USA whose minister was sacked for having an affair with a sixteen year old girl? Whenever I read the numerous articles that I receive online from say Charisma magazine and Christianity today (along with others), it seems that the non-charismatic sector of the church is plagued with its own problems but the media seems to be a bit overly fixated with the Pentecostal and charismatic movement. When it comes to the many once great historical denominations, they seem to be struggling against the prevalence of homosexual activity within their ranks along with other forms of immoral behaviour and financial irregularities.Consistently the very worst news stories/ sermons reviewed are the ones fixated on signs and wonders and feeling the Holy Spirit/speaking in tongues including the Australian C3 Church and Hillsong Church.
Would that have been the old Eltham AOG on Main Road? If this was the case Im aware that this congregation has had a very troubled history to the point where they have now become a part of the Planet Shakers operation. For that matter, many AOG congregations here in Melbourne have been less than impressive to the point where I would hardly call the AOG (which is now the Australian Christian Churches) as being Pentecostal.Personal side to it all - before brain surgery I had all the feelings of God's presence in Charismatic services AND personal prayer, speaking in tongues and so on. Afterwards I lost all feelings and felt flat and empty in those *same* services/situations. It actually contributed to a lot of my falling away. (Atheists would just love my story. Backsliding into sin is what kept me there for a long period of time) That started the whole "how much is biological, how much is emotional, how much is genuinely spiritual (whether from God or deceptive spirits) ....."
When I pretty well re-converted after briefly hearing Gospel preached on sidewalk I returned to the local Assembly of God church in Viewbank Melbourne.
Heres where I have had the advantage of experiencing some great spiritual vitality having been a part of the earlier charismatic renewal though this particular time period seems to be getting further and further along in history with every year that goes by! I have to say that I do feel sorry for many such as yourself who may have joined a supposed Pentecostal congregation and for most part not much occurs past a bit of talking the talk. How often have I heard song leaders say I feel the presence of the Lord where their feeling was in reality more a result of an increase in tempo and with a few drawn out Prai .se theeeee Lorrrrrd brothers and sisters! If youve been to any of the dying ACC (the old AOG) congregations who have given their building and assets to Hillsong, the first thing that Hillsong does is to paint the walls and ceiling black and install a massive (though often an impressive) sound system - and hey presto, instant revival! Well, so they would like to think.There I saw everyone appearing to experience God still, probably the talented musicians contributed a lot to the service's atmosphere. I still felt nothing but I concentrated on the preaching instead. I often felt dissatisfied.
Well I am one of those people. I am glad I have finally got an expert in pro-signs of Holy Spirit (especially tongues) to answer my questions.
Personal side to it all - before surgery I had all the feelings of God's presence in Charismatic services AND personal prayer, speaking in tongues and so on. Afterwards I lost all feelings and felt flat and empty in those *same* services/situations. It actually contributed to a lot of my falling away. (Backsliding into sin is what kept me there for a long period of time though.) That started the whole "how much is biological, how much is emotional, how much is genuinely spiritual (whether from God or deceptive spirits) ....." questioning.
When I pretty well re-converted after briefly hearing Gospel preached on sidewalk I returned to the local Assembly of God church in Viewbank Melbourne. There I saw everyone appearing to experience God still, probably the talented musicians contributed a lot to the service's atmosphere. I still felt nothing but I concentrated on the preaching instead. I often felt dissatisfied.
I got involved in a women's bible study group and everyone of them told me when I questioned how they knew it was God speaking to them, they were really speaking in tongues and/or miracles were really happening in their healing ministry - they just "knew" via feelings.
It left me very disillusioned with it all. The ones who believed in continuation of spiritual gifts often were the ones who didn't know much about the bible. I found out afterwards (I had moved away to another town very far away in WA) that several had left the church or healing ministry (one no longer believed in Hell, one separated from husband) - and they were the ones who claimed to feel (and appeared genuine in this belief) the Holy Spirit's presence the most.
In the very remote town I wasn't able to attend church so I had to rely on sermons online. There I came across a radio show (Fighting for the Faith) that is completely focused on discernment, apologetics and comparing what "people are saying about God in the name of God". Consistently the very worst news stories/ sermons reviewed are the ones fixated on signs and wonders and feeling the Holy Spirit/speaking in tongues including the Australian C3 Church and Hillsong Church.
Surely if the preachers/denominations that testify they are touched by the Holy Spirit/signs and wonders should be the best and holiest preachers and Christians of all? That is a very sincere question.
The most fervent "living out their faith" Christians - the ones who voluntarily do unpaid missionary work etc. I have known are non-Charismatics. Why is that so?
I think it is! :o I checked the Google map and it is the closest church I could find to Yallambie that fitted the AOG prototype! You know you have just provided the first thing that made me glad I moved away from Melbourne. If that church did change hands to Planetshakers - if I knew then what I know now - there is NO way I could go there.Would that have been the old Eltham AOG on Main Road? If this was the case Im aware that this congregation has had a very troubled history to the point where they have now become a part of the Planet Shakers operation. For that matter, many AOG congregations here in Melbourne have been less than impressive to the point where I would hardly call the AOG (which is now the Australian Christian Churches) as being Pentecostal.
Maybe one extreme to the other? Overly practical messages (e.g. family advice) and/or too theological (over average person's head) and too little about the Holy Spirit?I probably think of "signs and wonders" when I think of Charismatic beliefs because of very long conversations with a Charismatic who was totally infatuated with Rick Joyner and other NAR/WoF prophets. Are they Charismaniacs not Charismatic Christians? Would you say they were take Charismatic beliefs out-of-context and put them into a totally different galaxy?Except for the question of experiencing “signs & wonders” I couldn’t agree more, what a great question!
Are they people who believe the 21st century church should be like the very early church (Book of Acts)?I think that it would be reasonably safe to say that considering the current condition of many congregations in our country who would place themselves under the Full Gospel banner, that this would be primarily in name only and not so much experientially.
I think so. Australians are extremely materialistic and skeptical about spiritual things overall. Do you think seeker sensitive churches seem to look for the right bait to attract non-believers and even Charismatic churches have resorted to minimising "what sounds weird at first to the non-spiritual" doctrines in their sermons to keep their audiences attending?Just today while having a cup of coffee with some friends in our church cafeteria, I mentioned that I feel that I am much like many others who feel that they are “on hold” as the church in general seems to be a bit flat in the western world as it has seemingly moved as an almost solid block into the worldly ‘seeker-sensitive’ ethos.
Like my local pastor says people are too comfortable to be hungry for God. I live in a mining town district and people are way worse here (like in the Pilbara WA) than more average towns in Australia.As such, I am conscious that from within the western church, as against that of the Third-world church that we can hardly hold ourselves up as being a shining beacon of light to the rest of the world, in fact, far from it.
[QUOTEIt would be fair to say, that even many experientially cessationist commentators will often bemoan the fact that from their experience that the Pentecostals and charismatics tend to show a greater spiritual passion and dedication than do those who are within their own ranks.
Yes it does seem that way. I went from somewhat Charismatic friendly to the other side when I found that experiences described as essential didn't match what I lost post-surgery. Bible and other teachings finished off the last bit of Continuationism belief system.Having come to the Lord in 1972 and later embracing the fullness of the Spirit in 1974, it seems that your experience is the exact opposite of mine. In my opinion the more fervent Believers have always been those who have embraced the fullness of the Spirit which includes the ability to be able to pray in the Spirit.
Same here. I was brought up a Catholic and only went to Catholic schools. Nothing deader than Catholic masses. When I was a teenage I went to several Charismatic services with an acquaintance and then Baptist church with other Uni students for a while (then got into a very bad relationship and backslid for a long time).This was what first attracted me to the charismatic renewal in that as a new Believer who was very active in our cities church youth scene, all that I could really see around me was a rather dull and lifeless spirituality, one which did not seem to match that of the New Testament record – not that I could really understand this ‘record’ but it was not hard to figure out that not all was well around me.
I have never had any doubt of Charismatics' sincerity. Other than Baptists I have never known people as serious about their faith.When I began to read about the incredible outpouring of the Holy Spirit throughout the world and then beginning to meet “those” charismatics, all of a sudden I encountered a people who seemed to understand what it meant to walk in the Spirit.
I noticed that several very extreme Charismatics had personal problems/severe issues from the past - do you think unresolved hurts would be a factor in this? i.e. seeking God's presence to heal pain?Of course there are always two sides to any coin, which means that there have been many occasions where I had hoped that some individuals from within my circles would take up a call to the frozen Antarctic.
Yes whether pro or anti-Charismatic, every Christian is still a sinner.Whenever I read the numerous articles that I receive online from say Charisma magazine and Christianity today (along with others), it seems that the non-charismatic sector of the church is plagued with its own problems but the media seems to be a bit overly fixated with the Pentecostal and charismatic movement.
I really hope that thinking Charismatics take control of the whole movement then. From what I have seen on TV and online the loonies have taken control of the asylum and things look completely crazy to any outsider especially atheists (like my husband).Leaving aside the often eccentric sermons that come out of some sectors of the Full Gospel movement; with the more academic material that is produced by Full Gospel academics then this type of material is held in high regard which should be no surprise as Pneumatology is the realm that is dominated by either Full Gospel academics or with those who are deemed to be "open-but-cautious".
It does sound like I have seen a lot of the counterfeit then in recent years (after surgery timeslot) before I gave up on AOG/nondenominational churches altogether. The church I went in Townsville seemed pretty genuine from memory however (from late 90s, surgery 1999, left church end 2002 when moved to Toowoomba due to husband's army posting). Friendly to speaking in tongues, healing ministry and so on.I have to say that I do feel sorry for many such as yourself who may have joined a supposed Pentecostal congregation and for most part not much occurs past a bit of “talking the talk”....If you’ve been to any of the dying ACC (the old AOG) congregations who have given their building and assets to Hillsong, the first thing that Hillsong does is to paint the walls and ceiling black and install a massive (though often an impressive) sound system - and hey presto, instant revival!
Have you noticed any other factors? A woman I knew a few years back had similar feelings to me (very early stages of aura) after too way much coffee. For me it was always overtiredness, stress and like her too much coffee.I identify with some of this. I have had occasional episodes of depersonalization/derealization ("dp/dr," not to be read as a Differential Calculus expression) with a hint of "Alice in Wonderland Syndrome" since adolescence. (Google them, or if you wish, I can provide some links.) By "occasional," I mean once every few years I would have an episode lasting maybe 15 minutes. I went about 20 years with none, then several years ago had a significant one that partially persisted for several months. While it persisted, it really adversely impacted my "sense" (for lack of any good term) of the presence of God, and made any sort of praying feel unbearably weird. My sleep-wake cycle has always been a bit off, and this has increased as I've gotten older. I'm very hesitant to try to "force" it to be normal, as I've found that can cause problems, including at least "mini" bouts of dp/dr.
That sounds similar what I experience now. Sudden insight and memory of scripture or what keyword to search for etc. Also a fair few times I have read or watched something and a day or so later someone on the forum enquires about that same topic. "Just by chance" my atheist husband would say.I resist calling it "feelings," since it is not what most people mean when they use that term. It is not a physical sensation, it is not an emotion, and it is not a mood. It is a perception of some other sort. It is a conviction, but one not derived from logic and reasoning.
I think a lot of the mainline denominations have gone astray because they aren't doing what you describe what the Pentecostals did. i.e. more liberal/worldly in doctrine. The other denominations e.g. this Baptist church I currently attend seem to believe the Bible but interpret same passages very differently perhaps?There are a few factors in play here. For one thing, at a "grass roots" level, there is still some mutual distrust and animosity between Pentecostals and traditional "mainline" denominations. The early Pentecostals read the Bible, believed it, and couldn't see any reason why the same experiences should not be occurring now...... Some of that thinking persists, though as has been noted, Pentecostalism now has its share of astute scholars.
Yes that is the major issue behind my movement from Charismatic -style thinking (other than experiences gone). When the whole passage and context looked at the contradiction between their teachings and the bible is often extremely noticeable; for me as noticeable as the Roman Catholic Church's doctrines about Mary, purgatory, saints and so on.Another factor is that many Pentecostals and Charismatics know Scripture very well in terms of "content" and "chapter and verse," but are shaky in terms of exegesis. Instead of considering text within context, they too often either "proof text" or else the polar opposite, search for spooky hidden esoteric messages "behind" the text.
My other issue! Special prayers, laying on of hands, and declaring the disease to leave me did NOT resolve my issues. I was then told I mustn't have had enough faith. My surgeon said there was scar tissue but one friend said I should have had more faith and then God would have dealt with it.A third problem is a "zap" mentality. Since they know by experience that God does often show up and miraculously "zap" problems away, they don't know how to handle the times when He does NOT do that.
Like I said in my other entry that is why it is best to understand the other person's perspective before assuming they are completely wrong/right.That may reflect selection bias on the part of the people running the radio show. Pentecostals and Charismatics certainly have plenty of problems. But I don't think it would take me much time or effort to find a big list of Baptist preachers who dived headfirst into the muck.
That's a very good point.Paul disciplined their misconduct and gave them instructions for better order in regard to using the Spirit's gifts, but never denied the manifestations really WERE the Spirit.
Wow that's a lot of churches. It must be a USA cultural thing. What's the church attendance statistics like?Here at home, I'm in a smallish (about 8000 people) town in western PA. It's a very churchy area. ..... I'm not sure of the situation now, but back in the late '80s, most of the active evangelism was done by two of the Pentecostal churches and one of the Baptist churches.
Have you noticed any other factors? A woman I knew a few years back had similar feelings to me (very early stages of aura) after too way much coffee. For me it was always overtiredness, stress and like her too much coffee.
I am very suspicious now that my emotional/spiritual centres were extremely overactivated from the scar tissue/misfiring -> overactivation of temporal lobe -> mystical "feeling directly touched by God" experiences. When the seizures were well-controlled (and after lobectomy was done) the experiences and interest in things spiritual levelled off a fair bit.
Note: apostle Paul often wondered about about neuropsychologists- I answered my own question years ago when conversing with an atheist. If Paul hearing from Jesus in Acts 9 was purely delusional/epileptic fit induced then why would the apostles accept Paul as one of them, even so far as apostle Peter accepting correction from him in Galatians 2?
I think a lot of the mainline denominations have gone astray because they aren't doing what you describe what the Pentecostals did. i.e. more liberal/worldly in doctrine. The other denominations e.g. this Baptist church I currently attend seem to believe the Bible but interpret same passages very differently perhaps?
Yes that is the major issue behind my movement from Charismatic -style thinking (other than experiences gone). When the whole passage and context looked at the contradiction between their teachings and the bible is often extremely noticeable; for me as noticeable as the Roman Catholic Church's doctrines about Mary, purgatory, saints and so on.
My other issue! Special prayers, laying on of hands, and declaring the disease to leave me did NOT resolve my issues. I was then told I mustn't have had enough faith. My surgeon said there was scar tissue but one friend said I should have had more faith and then God would have dealt with it.
Wow that's a lot of churches. It must be a USA cultural thing. What's the church attendance statistics like?
Hopefully I will be able to get back to this thread in a day or so as a lot of great points have been raised.
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