Is Catholzism Universalist?

[Emun]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven and allegedly the Pope also said that there is no hell.

In view of these facts, I ask myself the legitimate question whether modern Catholicism is universalist?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've read the catechism that is also on the vatican website, Catholicism is not universalist.

Funny play on words though.

 

[Der Alte]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven and allegedly the Pope also said that there is no hell.
In view of these facts, I ask myself the legitimate question whether modern Catholicism is universalist?

I suggest you quote the specific Catholic documents which you think my support "Universalism." They should be available online.

 

[Emun]

I suggest you quote the specific Catholic documents which you think my support "Universalism." They should be available online.

I have mentioned several arguments and linked a source to the catechism.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

From the Catechism on the Vatican Website:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

www.vatican.va

This doesn't read as a universalist text to me.

 

[Emun]

From the Catechism on the Vatican Website:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

www.vatican.va

View attachment 325057

This doesn't read as a universalist text to me.

Well, then the question is why Muslims and Jews go to heaven even though they are unbelievers. Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 841

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, then the question is why Muslims and Jews go to heaven even though they are unbelievers. Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 841

Paragraph 843 gives more context.

The catechism is being evangelistic in this case. It talking about preparation for receiving the real message later on.

 

[Emun]

Paragraph 843 gives more context.

View attachment 325061

The catechism is being evangelistic in this case. It talking about preparation for receiving the real message later on.

Dude, if the catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and believe in the same God, then that means they are saved and will go to heaven. According to Catholicism, unbelievers go to heaven. Not only that, the Catechism even claims that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Can you explain to me why the Pope kissed the Koran?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Dude, if the catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and believe in the same God, then that means they are saved and will go to heaven. According to Catholicism, unbelievers go to heaven. Not only that, the Catechism even claims that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Can you explain to me why the Pope kissed the Koran?

I clearly illustrated from the immediate context that the quote used in the OP wasn't saying what you think it is saying.

I double checked after seeing your post, and this is not the conspiracy theory subforum.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven and allegedly the Pope also said that there is no hell.

In view of these facts, I ask myself the legitimate question whether modern Catholicism is universalist?

Seems like it to me. Interesting how it singles out the Muslims but I see nothing of the Jews. So its not a Universalist construct just pandering to a particular group who does not exactly deny the Messiah directly.

 

[rturner76]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven and allegedly the Pope also said that there is no hell.

In view of these facts, I ask myself the legitimate question whether modern Catholicism is universalist?

I do believe it says that some Muslims may be saved and that Jews are considered special by God but I don't think it says "all people will be saved."

 

[Wolseley]

One day a man died and went to heaven. After a tearful reunion with his departed family members and the Lord Jesus, an angel was assigned to show him around.

They walked through beautiful broad avenues of the shining city, filled with astonishing, peaceful neighborhoods. "Who lives here?" the man asked.

"Oh, this is where the Jews live," the angel replied.

"Well, what about that last neighborhood we went through?" said the man.

"Muslims," said the angel.

"How about the one coming up ahead?" asked the man.

"Hindus," said the angel, "Provided they were seeking God as they knew Him."

They entered another neighborhood, and the angel said, "The Catholics live here."

"Wow," said the man. "Who lives beyond them?"

"The Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Quakers, and even the Mormons," said the angel.

By and by they entered a new neighborhood, and the man asked, "Who lives here?"

"SHHH-shhhhh! Not so loud!" said the angel in a whisper. "This is where the Fundamentalist Baptists live, and they think they're the only ones here!"

 

[Jipsah]

Dude, if the catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and believe in the same God, then that means they are saved and will go to heaven.

Your conclusion, not what the catechism says.

According to Catholicism, unbelievers go to heaven.

Not even close to true.

Not only that, the Catechism even claims that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Both worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Unfortunately, like the Jews the Muslims don't acknowledge our Lord Christ as God Incarnate. If you're gonna trot out the ridiculous "moon god" canard, spare us. No Muslim believes any such thing.

Can you explain to me why the Pope kissed the Koran?

Not a clue. I'm Anglo Catholic, and under no obligation to think well of whoever is Bishop of Rome at any given time

 

[Emun]

The Pope, who according to the Catholic Church is the Vicar of Christ, said:

“On the contrary, the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in our heart: Do good and do not do evil. The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, what about the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us first class children of God! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, with everyone doing his own part; if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of meeting: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good! We shall meet there.”

Is that not universalism?

 

[Emun]

Both worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Unfortunately, like the Jews the Muslims don't acknowledge our Lord Christ as God Incarnate. If you're gonna trot out the ridiculous "moon god" canard, spare us. No Muslim believes any such thing.

Islam denies the crucifixion and the Trinity. Islam insults Christians. Islam claims the Bible is falsified. Islam claims that Christians will go to hell.

Considering these facts, how can Muslims believe in the same God? The Jews think so too, but what did Jesus say to them? That their God is the devil (John 8:44) and that their synagogues are of the devil (Revelation 2:9).

The Pope has kissed a book that hates and curses Christianity.

 

[Jipsah]

Islam denies the crucifixion

Yep. Islam is untrue. But they still call on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,

and the Trinity.]/quote] As also do Jews, "Oneness" Christians, and a good otherChristians who simply can't get their minds around the idea of God in Three Persons. And they all call on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Islam insults Christians.

In general not so much, since they hold both Christians and Jews as "People of the Book", who call on the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Islam claims the Bible is falsified.

They do. And they still call upon the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, although they can't understand that "Isa" is the Incarnation of Allah Himself. They find the idea blasphemous, as did, and do, the Jews.

Islam claims that Christians will go to hell.

Which behavior is acceptable only if the accusers are True Christians (agree with me) and the accused are False Christians (disagree with me.).

Considering these facts, how can Muslims believe in the same God?

In the same sense that we believe that the Jews believe in the same God we do. Jews deny the Trinity, deny the viirgin birth, deny the Incarnation, deny the Resurrection, deny Christ's miracles, ad infinitum. But you have no problem saying their God is the same as ours. Why is that?

The Pope has kissed a book that hates and curses Christianity.

It doesn't really. You haven't read it, have you? You shouldn't have too solid an opinion of any book you haven't read yourself. Do I think al Quran is holy writ? Far from it; but I know why. You're working off hearsay. (Same with the Book of Mormon, BTW. I know it's rubbish because I've read it.)

Fact is, Judaism and Islam are a lot more alike than Christianity is to either Islam or Judaism.

And yeah, while we agree on very little, we all invoke the same God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Dude, if the catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and believe in the same God, then that means they are saved and will go to heaven. According to Catholicism, unbelievers go to heaven.

It's been shown to you already that the Catholic view isn't what you are claiming it is.

Not only that, the Catechism even claims that Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

Because we do. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all profess faith in the one God of Abraham. As Christians we believe Jews and Muslims are wrong about God, but it's the same God. This has never been a controversial position in Christianity.

Can you explain to me why the Pope kissed the Koran?

John Paul II of blessed memory was a man who devoted his life to building bridges between Christians and other religious communities, that the message of Christ might be heard clearly. Showing signs of respect toward others goes a long way to establishing lasting friendships.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Red Gold]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven

OK!

 

[fhansen]

According to modern Catholicism, Jews go to heaven even if they do not believe in the Gospel. Not only the Jews but also the Muslims are saved according to the Catechism; they even believe in the same God: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Once the Pope said that even an atheist can go to heaven and allegedly the Pope also said that there is no hell.

In view of these facts, I ask myself the legitimate question whether modern Catholicism is universalist?

To know the teachings of the church one must stick with the catechism. Individual comments spoken by Catholics, even popes, can be easily misconstrued or even just plain wrong. The gift of infallibility only prevents a pope from introducing error into official teachings. And, yes, the faith of a Jew or even Muslim, imperfect and misinformed as it may be, can please God if that person has done the best they could with the backgrounds and knowledge given. Christ would still be their Savior in any case. This is not universalism but a recognition that faith is the heart of what God is after. Abraham did not know Christ by name.

 

[Der Alte]

To know the teachings of the church one must stick with the catechism. Individual comments spoken by Catholics, even popes, can be easily misconstrued or even just plain wrong. The gift of infallibility only prevents a pope from introducing error into official teachings. And, yes, the faith of a Jew or even Muslim, imperfect and misinformed as it may be, can please God if that person has done the best they could with the backgrounds and knowledge given. Christ would still be their Savior in any case. This is not universalism but a recognition that faith is the heart of what God is after. Abraham did not know Christ by name.

These vss. address the situation of infants, children, peoples in remote locations who have never heard the gospel.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​