Is Catholzism Universalist?

[fhansen]

eternal damnationism started with augustine and the roman catholic abomination in the 4th century. they have succeeded in using distorted translations and unspiritual interpretations of the bible to fool the masses with false fear to keep the cash flowing.

all other church demon-nations are mere watered-down versions of this religious blasphemy that distorts the truth that "God has reconciled ALL THINGS unto Himself"- Colossians 1:20

Eternal damnation began with the early church fathers, if one does not recognize it in the new testament itself. From Eden on man has been required to do the "right thing", and God has been patiently working on man to get us there ever since. But no sin/evil would've ever entered His good creation to begin with if He did not grant the gift of free will to certain sentient, rational beings. The most basic sin was to disobey God, to fail to recognize God as God IOW. This alienated man from Him, placing us here in a halfway house between heaven and hell where both good and evil are literally known-and we have the choice, with the benefit of that knowledge along with revelaltion and grace, to shun evil and run to the good. This begins, from our perspective, with faith, effectively reversing Adam's choice within ourselves as God becomes our God again, which is the right and just state of being for man. But, again, He will not force Himself upon us; we can continue to choose our exile from Him. But as we turn to Him, becoming His children now, righteousness begins to flow by virtue of that fellowship-man was not created to be a sinner but cannot retain moral integrity if spirtually apart from God. And he's born that way: dead, in need of being "born again". That is the reconcilation Jesus came to accomplish. Condemantion for sin is overcome to the extent that sin is now, finally, overcome in us.

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[ozso]

Well Pope Francis is on record saying, "God has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!
Even the atheists."

Pope Francis: God redeemed everyone, 'not just Catholics'

(RNS) In remarks that may prompt a theological debate about the nature of salvation, Pope Francis declared that God “has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!”

religionnews.com

 

[Der Alte]

Well Pope Francis is on record saying, "God has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!
Even the atheists."

Pope Francis: God redeemed everyone, 'not just Catholics'

(RNS) In remarks that may prompt a theological debate about the nature of salvation, Pope Francis declared that God “has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!”

religionnews.com

Evidently this Pope erred. Jesus, Himself, said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He means never, not someday by and by.

 

[Hmm]

Evidently this Pope erred

He's having a go at the Pope now! What has he ever done to you?

 

[Der Alte]

He's having a go at the Pope now! What has he ever done to you?

True or false? These words of Pope Francis are contradicted by the words of Jesus, Himself. "Pope Francis is on record saying, 'God has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!'"
Jesus, Himself said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." I say that Jesus is correct and the pope incorrect. What say you?

 

[Hmm]

I say that Jesus is correct and the pope incorrect. What say you?

I say that Jesus is correct, the Pope is correct and you are incorrect.

 

[Der Alte]

I say that Jesus is correct, the Pope is correct and you are incorrect.

Impossible.

 

[JSRG]

I should note that Pope Francis does not seem to have actually been making a universalist statement with what was quoted from him. Other statements he's made hardly seem universalist:

"Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell." Lent 2016: “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice” (Mt 9:13). The works of mercy on the road of the Jubilee | Francis

"Such a life – frequently proposed and imposed – risks leading to hell." Pilgrimage to Fátima: Holy Mass and rite of Canonization of Blesseds Francisco Marto and Jacinta Marto (square in front of the Shrine of Our Lady of Fátima, 13 May 2017) | Francis

Exactly what he was saying is a bit unclear, which is a criticism a number of people have aimed at Francis, for making statements like that without clarification. Probably the most plausible one is that he was saying salvation is available to all, even those of different religions or atheists, in which Francis wouldn't be saying anything new here that past popes haven't, even if he is saying it more strongly and without the usual caveat of this requiring "invincible ignorance" (the idea that one can be excused for lack of belief should they be unaware of the requirement of it through no real fault of their own). Undoubtedly some will still say it's wrong under this interpretation, but the point is that while this could be labeled as inclusivist or pluralist, it isn't universalist.

I should point out that belief in universalism--certain universalism, at least--has been pretty clearly condemned by the Catholic Church. The Council of Trent decreed in Session 6, Canon 16:

"If any one shall say, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless that he have learnt this by a special revelation; let him be anathema."

The target of this canon isn't technically universalism, but rather eternal security (a Calvinist doctrine). However, if it's heretical for anyone to say for certain that they are going to achieve salvation, then they sure as heck can't say everyone certainly will.

I've seen some Catholics, while agreeing that certain universalism was anathematized, assert that "hopeful universalism" can be believed in--believing in the possibility, but not doing so with certainty--which would avoid conflict with the aforementioned canon. But to assert universalism is definitely true contradicts clear Catholic dogma.

 

[chevyontheriver]

True or false? These words of Pope Francis are contradicted by the words of Jesus, Himself. "Pope Francis is on record saying, 'God has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!'"
Jesus, Himself said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." I say that Jesus is correct and the pope incorrect. What say you?

Popes are only considered infallible in exceptionally limited circumstances and pope Francis has yet to be in one of those circumstances. In other words he’s speaking his own mind and not speaking for Jesus here.

 

[ozso]

These words of Pope Francis are contradicted by the words of Jesus, Himself. "Pope Francis is on record saying, 'God has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!'"
Jesus, Himself said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." I say that Jesus is correct and the pope incorrect. What say you?

How should the kingdom of heaven be defined? In the long run won't there be a new earth with the kingdom of haven badically being a giant cube that rests upon the new earth?

 

[ozso]

I should note that Pope Francis does not seem to have actually been making a universalist statement with what was quoted from him. Other statements he's made hardly seem universalist:

"Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell." Lent 2016: “I desire mercy, and not sacrifice” (Mt 9:13). The works of mercy on the road of the Jubilee | Francis

"Such a life – frequently proposed and imposed – risks leading to hell." Pilgrimage to Fátima: Holy Mass and rite of Canonization of Blesseds Francisco Marto and Jacinta Marto (square in front of the Shrine of Our Lady of Fátima, 13 May 2017) | Francis

Exactly what he was saying is a bit unclear, which is a criticism a number of people have aimed at Francis, for making statements like that without clarification. Probably the most plausible one is that he was saying salvation is available to all, even those of different religions or atheists, in which Francis wouldn't be saying anything new here that past popes haven't, even if he is saying it more strongly and without the usual caveat of this requiring "invincible ignorance" (the idea that one can be excused for lack of belief should they be unaware of the requirement of it through no real fault of their own). Undoubtedly some will still say it's wrong under this interpretation, but the point is that while this could be labeled as inclusivist or pluralist, it isn't universalist.

I should point out that belief in universalism--certain universalism, at least--has been pretty clearly condemned by the Catholic Church. The Council of Trent decreed in Session 6, Canon 16:

"If any one shall say, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless that he have learnt this by a special revelation; let him be anathema."

The target of this canon isn't technically universalism, but rather eternal security (a Calvinist doctrine). However, if it's heretical for anyone to say for certain that they are going to achieve salvation, then they sure as heck can't say everyone certainly will.

I've seen some Catholics, while agreeing that certain universalism was anathematized, assert that "hopeful universalism" can be believed in--believing in the possibility, but not doing so with certainty--which would avoid conflict with the aforementioned canon. But to assert universalism is definitely true contradicts clear Catholic dogma.

Even the Greek Orthodox PhD theologian, David Bentley Heart, who's basically considered the foremost proponent of universal salvation, says universalism teaches that Hell exists.

Here's Pope Francis badically declaring that a deceased atheist is saved.

 

[Michie]

Even the Greek Orthodox PhD theologian, David Bentley Heart, who's basically considered the foremost proponent of universal salvation, says universalism teaches that Hell exists.

Here's Pope Francis badically declaring that a deceased atheist is saved.

He’s comforting a child. He is not speaking ex-cathedra. Nobody can judge eternal destination.

 

[ozso]

He’s comforting a child. He is not speaking ex-cathedra. Nobody can judge eternal destination.

I get what you're saying. But at the same time he was making a televised public declaration for all the world to hear, and asking the audience for agreement. I would hope that wasn't just a matter of putting on a show and a deception to make a child feel better.

 

[Michie]

I get what you're saying. But at the same time he was making a televised public declaration for all the world to hear, and asking the audience for agreement. I would hope that wasn't just a matter of putting on a show and a deception to make the child feel better.

He was not asking the audience for agreement on eternal destination. He pointed out that it was admirable that a non-believer got his children baptized even in his unbelief saying that God would be pleased with that. The pope has many opinions. None of which we are required to agree with. What we are required to believe in is the infallible teachings of the Church. No matter the thoughts and opinions of the pope or any clergy in the Church. Praying for the dead is a common practice in the Church which is what he instructed that child to do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Pope, who according to the Catholic Church is the Vicar of Christ, said:

“On the contrary, the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in our heart: Do good and do not do evil. The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, what about the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us first class children of God! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, with everyone doing his own part; if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of meeting: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good! We shall meet there.”

Is that not universalism?

This isn’t quite universalism because it implies that everyone can be saved, not everyone will be saved. So that’s one subtle difference. I think the idea is that people may experience a conversation after death. Personally I don’t believe there will be conversion after death but I think this is generally what is being said here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He was not asking the audience for agreement on eternal destination. He pointed out that it was admirable that a non-believer got his children baptized even in his unbelief saying that God would be pleased with that. The pope has many opinions. None of which we are required to agree with. What we are required to believe in is the infallible teachings of the Church. No matter the thoughts and opinions of the pope or any clergy in the Church. Praying for the dead is a common practice in the Church which is what he instructed that child to do.

Because of God’s omniscience and omnipresence prayers for the dead that are made after they are deceased can still be taken into consideration before their death since God already knew every prayer we would ever pray before creation.

 

[ozso]

He was not asking the audience for agreement on eternal destination. He pointed out that it was admirable that a non-believer got his children baptized even in his unbelief saying that God would be pleased with that. The pope has many opinions. None of which we are required to agree with. What we are required to believe in is the infallible teachings of the Church. No matter the thoughts and opinions of the pope or any clergy in the Church. Praying for the dead is a common practice in the Church which is what he instructed that child to do.

I can understand wanting to downplay it.

 

[Michie]

I can understand wanting to downplay it.

You can believe whatever you want. The Church is not universalist and neither is the pope.