Is Catholicism too Marian?

[FireDragon76]

because Christ willingly submits to the Law, which means He listens to His Mother.

for two, no one ever said not to go to Christ Himself, which of course we do.

seriously, this is a whole lot of straw man nonsense that doesn't actually deal with what we believe. if someone is continuing to be misleading, it's not us.

Estranged Protestants are not going to find an ancient, proto-Protestantism in Orthodoxy, they are going to find a religion that looks alot more like Rome than Geneva or Wittenberg.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Estranged Protestants are not going to find an ancient, proto-Protestantism in Orthodoxy, they are going to find a religion that looks alot more like Rome than Geneva or Wittenberg.

when they look at it the way you have done here, that's not our problem. when you criticize Orthodoxy based on assumptions as opposed to what Orthodoxy actually says, we really can't do anything about that, because the faith you are criticizing is not ours.

when you look at one verse of an Akathist hymn, and try to use that when the very same Akathist refutes your point elsewhere, you are the one being misleading and dishonest.

 

[FireDragon76]

What is dishonest is to romanticize the praxis of your church for the purpose of sheep stealing. "Oh no, we are nothing like those Catholics". Yes, you are.

I am not ignorant, I spent years as a catechumen. I know exactly what Orthodoxy was about. I am not a simple, ignorant Jack Chick style critic of Orthodoxy.

 

[dzheremi]

Why did a thread about whether or not Catholicism is too Marian turn into whether or not Eastern Orthodoxy is too Marian?

It potentially misleads souls.. Orthodoxy is full of the same imagery as Catholicism, the angry, judging Christ (the Pantocrator) contrasted with the kind mother. This is the same criticism that Luther had of Catholicism in his day.

I'm sorry, I've been at least one of those (Roman Catholic), and they're very much not the same, whether or not Luther would've conflated them, which is wholly irrelevant.

My question to you, FireDragon76, as someone who is not in communion with either the EO or the RCC, is what exactly can be said of the Theotokos if seemingly everything that is said even in the non-RC churches is taken to be a potentially damning distraction from her Son? (I obviously don't believe it is, but this seems to be the view you are espousing.) And if everything is to be so considered, then what are we to make of the many beautiful Marian praises found in the fathers held in common by all of Eastern and much of Western Christianity, such as in the hymns on the Nativity of St. Ephrem the Syrian? (He's apparently not venerated in Lutheranism, but he is in Anglicanism and Catholicism.)

Where exactly is the line here, and why is your line any more trustworthy or authoritative than that of the EO, OO, or RC? (Or anyone else for that matter?)

 

[FireDragon76]

Why did a thread about whether or not Catholicism is too Marian turn into whether or not Eastern Orthodoxy is too Marian?



I'm sorry, I've been at least one of those (Roman Catholic), and they're very much not the same, whether or not Luther would've conflated them, which is wholly irrelevant.

My question to you, FireDragon76, as someone who is not in communion with either the EO or the RCC, is what exactly can be said of the Theotokos if seemingly everything that is said even in the non-RC churches is taken to be a potentially damning distraction from her Son? (I obviously don't believe it is, but this seems to be the view you are espousing.) And if everything is to be so considered, then what are we to make of the many beautiful Marian praises found in the fathers held in common by all of Eastern and much of Western Christianity, such as in the hymns on the Nativity of St. Ephrem the Syrian? (He's apparently not venerated in Lutheranism, but he is in Anglicanism and Catholicism.)

Where exactly is the line here, and why is your line any more trustworthy or authoritative than that of the EO, OO, or RC? (Or anyone else for that matter?)

St. Ephraim the Syrian is not commemorated on any of our calendars that we are aware of. We generally don't call it "veneration" anyways. We do have some of his hymns adapted to music, however.

I am not out to sell any particular religion as the only true church. People that feel that way have a tendency to gloss over details, I have noticed. I try to just talk about things as a see them. And Marian devotion is very real in Orthodoxy, and while it is different in some ways from Catholicism, it is significantly problematic from a Protestant perspective that it deserves mention. Orthodoxy is not kin to Protestantism, unlike what some Orthodox apologists portray it as being.

To my knowledge, the only Orthodox theologian I have encountered that seriously objected to the Immaculate Conception was St. John of San Francisco, and he did so on the confession that Christ alone was sinless. But other Orthodox disagree with the Immaculate Conception only because they have a non-Augustinian understanding of sin, so they see it as irrelevant, not offensive in the way that St. John did. They basically do agree that Mary was a special superhuman being separated from the rest of humanity, a prototypical nun.

Unlike other Protestants, we actually have nothing against statues or icons of Mary. But we do not believe she is a superwoman or was born sinless, nor is there any promise in the Scriptures that she has special intercessory powers, or that we should seek her intercession. Those are all man-made traditions without a divine promise attached to them, they are not the Gospel.

 

[Lost4words]

Sacred Heart is a Marian thing, as there are parishes named for it. but I do think I was confusing it with the Immaculate Heart, so thanks for the fix!

Sacred Heart is not a Marion 'thing'. We have many 'Sacred Heart' churches in the UK and they are named after the Sacred Heart of Jesus my friend.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sacred Heart is not a Marion 'thing'. We have many 'Sacred Heart' churches in the UK and they are named after the Sacred Heart of Jesus my friend.

It's just a poetic way of talking about Jesus' love. Frankly, I don't understand why Orthodox find it so offensive.

 

[Lost4words]

Mary, interceded at Cana. As Catholics, we ask Her to intercede for us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is dishonest is to romanticize the praxis of your church for the purpose of sheep stealing. "Oh no, we are nothing like those Catholics". Yes, you are.

I am not ignorant, I spent years as a catechumen. I know exactly what Orthodoxy was about. I am not a simple, ignorant Jack Chick style critic of Orthodoxy.

except theirs no romanticism here at all. you had to make your points by ignoring what we actually believe.

yes, you are ignorant. saying you know what Orthodoxy is about because you were a catechumen for a while is incredibly ignorant.

if you actually did know what Orthodoxy is about, you wouldn't constantly be getting it wrong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sacred Heart is not a Marion 'thing'. We have many 'Sacred Heart' churches in the UK and they are named after the Sacred Heart of Jesus my friend.

in America, there are churches called the Sacred Heart of Mary

 

[ArmyMatt]

To my knowledge, the only Orthodox theologian I have encountered that seriously objected to the Immaculate Conception was St. John of San Francisco, and he did so on the confession that Christ alone was sinless. But other Orthodox disagree with the Immaculate Conception only because they have a non-Augustinian understanding of sin, so they see it as irrelevant, not offensive in the way that St. John did. They basically do agree that Mary was a special superhuman being separated from the rest of humanity, a prototypical nun.

Unlike other Protestants, we actually have nothing against statues or icons of Mary. But we do not believe she is a superwoman or was born sinless, nor is there any promise in the Scriptures that she has special intercessory powers, or that we should seek her intercession. Those are all man-made traditions without a divine promise attached to them, they are not the Gospel.

and here is the problem, you only mention St John as seriously objecting. St Nikolai of Ziccha, St Nectarios of Aegina, Fr Thomas Hopko, Fr Andrew Damick, Fr Michael Pomazanky, Dr Serge Verhovskoy, Fr Seraphim Rose, Fr Seraphim Slobodskoy, Elder Cleopa of Romania, Elder Ephraim of Arizona, Kh Frederica Matthews-Greene, Dr David Ford, Dr Mary Ford, Elder Joseph the hesychast, Raphael Masterjohn, Met Heirotheos of Nafpaktos, Dr Christopher Veniamin, Fr Peter Heers, Fr Nicholas Sakharov, Elders Sophrony and Zacharias of Essex, etc. have all either spoken or written against it.

all are serious Orthodox theologians.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is the Orthodox objection to Mary's Immaculate Conception merely due to rejection of original sin, or is Mary in fact subject to the fall the same as any creature, including experiencing concupiscence and passions?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is the Orthodox objection to Mary's Immaculate Conception merely due to rejection of original sin, or is Mary in fact subject to the fall the same as any creature, including experiencing concupiscence and passions?

Mary is still subject to all aspects of the Fall, this is why she still needs a Savior. our rejection of the IC really has nothing to do with this.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why could Christ not have grown in a womb stained by original sin? He lived the rest of his life in a sinful world. That is the whole point of the Incarnation, that God had sympathy with our misery enough that he became one of us.

This idea that Mary was too holy to touch sin, is completely ridiculous. Was Christ too holy to touch sinners?

 

[prodromos]

Orthodoxy is not kin to Protestantism, unlike what some Orthodox apologists portray it as being.

Who are these Orthodox apologists? I've only ever heard that Protestantism is kin to Catholicism, like two sides of the same coin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why could Christ not have grown in a womb stained by original sin? He lived the rest of his life in a sinful world. That is the whole point of the Incarnation, that God had sympathy with our misery enough that he became one of us.

This idea that Mary was too holy to touch sin, is completely ridiculous. Was Christ too holy to touch sinners?

He did grow in a fallen womb

 

[dzheremi]

St. Ephraim the Syrian is not commemorated on any of our calendars that we are aware of. We generally don't call it "veneration" anyways. We do have some of his hymns adapted to music, however.

This was my point in picking such a widely venerated (yes, venerated) saint: we have in St. Ephrem a perfectly fine Orthodox saint (according to the recognition given to him in that Church), a perfectly fine Catholic saint (according to the recognition given to him in that Church), a perfectly fine Protestant saint (according to the recognition given to him in some Protestant churches, such as the Anglicans), but because you -- a Lutheran -- belong to a church that does not venerate him, that...means something somehow. "We wouldn't do that." Okay then. So what? This thread is not about what you would our wouldn't do -- it's about what Roman Catholicism does or sanctions doing.

Saying "That's not what some Protestants would be comfortable with" has nothing to do with anything. Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox are not the same, so of course there are going to be these differences among them. I don't know why or how that required you to turn this thread into "FireDragon76 thinks that EO and RC both go to far in their Marian devotions".

I am not out to sell any particular religion as the only true church.

Well...at least if you were, you'd be in the right place to argue as you are arguing...but that doesn't make the argument any more valid.

People that feel that way have a tendency to gloss over details, I have noticed. I try to just talk about things as a see them. And Marian devotion is very real in Orthodoxy, and while it is different in some ways from Catholicism, it is significantly problematic from a Protestant perspective that it deserves mention.

And that's fine, but you can't expect the Protestant perspectives to have any bearing on what the EO or the RC do, since they were doing that before Protestantism ever existed.

Orthodoxy is not kin to Protestantism, unlike what some Orthodox apologists portray it as being.

[Citation needed]

To my knowledge, the only Orthodox theologian I have encountered that seriously objected to the Immaculate Conception was St. John of San Francisco, and he did so on the confession that Christ alone was sinless. But other Orthodox disagree with the Immaculate Conception only because they have a non-Augustinian understanding of sin, so they see it as irrelevant, not offensive in the way that St. John did. They basically do agree that Mary was a special superhuman being separated from the rest of humanity, a prototypical nun.

What on earth...? Uh...maybe this is a Chalcedonian thing (I really, really doubt it), but no, the Theotokos is not a "superhuman being separated from the rest of humanity." I can't find it just now, but HH Pope Theodosius of Alexandria (the last Pope to be recognized by EO and OO in Egypt, in the 530s) gave a brilliant sermon on this which underlined the objections held in common by both, which stem precisely from the need to preserve the proper understanding of St. Mary's humanity and not turn into some kind of super being.

You are really off base with this, and a lot of your criticisms. I don't know where you're getting your information, but even though I obviously can't comment on what some EO saint said at some point because I don't know anything about that, I do know that the objection to the Immaculate Conception predates the invention of the doctrine by many, many centuries (and it's the same objection we still have today).

Unlike other Protestants, we actually have nothing against statues or icons of Mary. But we do not believe she is a superwoman or was born sinless

Neither do any Orthodox.

nor is there any promise in the Scriptures that she has special intercessory powers

Her intercessions are 'special' as she is literally the mother of God, but it's not as though other saints aren't petitioned. We are all called to intercede for one another (Ephesians 6:18), and as the saints have already run the race, then who better is there to call upon? The mother of God!

or that we should seek her intercession.

Well that's on you. Nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to do, but those who refuse to give proper honor to the mother of God are definitely anathema from this side of the Nile. We are very strong in our devotion to the Theotokos, and frankly anyone who has a problem with that is going to have a problem with much more than our Church's own traditions. We pray for the Coptic month of Kiahk: "Arise, O poor one, and clothe yourself with faith, and say 'Amen, amen, for us she intercedes!' The persistent servant will always praise her, for by His side that day the Lady of Virgins shall be." It is part of our faith just as the veneration of the holy cross or any other thing which is taken as a shield for the believers is. And this is not just the intercession of St. Mary, even though she is considered the greatest of all saints, but of all the saints similarly. St. Mary is singled out of course because of her very singular role in bearing Jesus Christ our Lord and God. That is as it should be. What kind of faith would it be that God should choose her and yet we should not? We don't know better than God.

Those are all man-made traditions

In the sense that Christ -- Who said of St. Mary His mother to His beloved disciple "Behold your mother" -- is both God and Man, yes, sure.

without a divine promise attached to them

Those who know the intercession of the Holy Theotokos know better. I do not ask her intercession or any saint's intercession for 'divine promises' anyway, but for help and strength in supplicating the Lord for the forgiveness of my many sins. At least in the Coptic tradition, the standard format of the intercessory prayer -- called the Hiteni (sing.) or Hiteniyat (pl.) after its opening line in Coptic -- is a prayer to God through the intercession of His saints: "Through the prayers of the holy Theotokos St. Mary, O Lord, grant us the forgiveness of our sins." I am sure the EO and probably also Catholics (or maybe Eastern Catholics more specifically) have something similar.

they are not the Gospel.

Not to be a smart aleck, but I did just allude to the Gospel of St. John (19:25-29). I know you'll probably say "that's not how Protestants would read that", so again...okay. Protestants and Orthodox are different. We all know that already.

 

[FireDragon76]

Nobody should believe what I think as an expert except my personal experiences as somebody who grew up Protestant and attended an Orthodox church for several years. Orthodoxy is not some home that Protestants have been seeking their whole life. To be Orthodox, one must repudiate key aspects of Protestantism and western culture in general. It will be a slap in the face to what your ancestors stood for. If you are OK being the ultimate "chooser" (as Adam and Eve were), then I guess that's fine. But there's a certain hypocrisy in trying to choose your way into a religious tradition that has an organic self-understanding, it's like trying to be that rose that uproots itself and tries to make its home in another garden.

 

[FireDragon76]

He did grow in a fallen womb

Then we are in agreement, and I retract what I said, because the Orthodox at least preach rightly on this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Nobody should believe what I think as an expert except my personal experiences as somebody who grew up Protestant and attended an Orthodox church for several years. Orthodoxy is not some home that Protestants have been seeking their whole life. To be Orthodox, one must repudiate key aspects of Protestantism and western culture in general. It will be a slap in the face to what your ancestors stood for. If you are OK being the ultimate "chooser" (as Adam and Eve were), then I guess that's fine. But I for one thought Orthodox value organic tradition more than that, than to seek to uproot a rose that grew in another garden just to make it their own.

Protestantism? yes. Western culture? depends. it's not a slap in the face as before the Schism, my Western ancestors were Orthodox in their faith. even as Orthodoxy has come back into the West, Western concepts and cultural terms are being grafted in.