Is Calvinism Just?

[Kenny'sID]

'Strong' tradition 'required' for doctrine not in harmony with all Scripture ?
"Tradition" accounts for similar errors in almost all religion, doesn't it ?

Agree

And if it's an easier doctrin, you can bet it'll become tradition right quick.

 

[Kenny'sID]

An opus is not an argument.

Thanks for clarifying that because I didn't want anyone to argue with it.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus calls that falling away from the faith.

It means you were never saved.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

The jailer asked what must I DO.

How do you repent without knowing what to do? Stop smoking = repentance?

 

[Dave L]

Not according to Romans 11:17-23 “If they don’t continue in their unbelief will graft them back in for God is able to graft them back in again”.

God grafted then into His covenant then broke them off and if they turn from their unbelief He will graft them back in AGAIN.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Not in my experience. And I investigated it pretty thoroughly.

Could you point out some of its errors concerning sin and grace? Or predestination?

 

[Dave L]

That makes no sense. Salvation is not a pat on the back. Salvation is a gift to be received by "whosoever will."

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus the Messiah is perfect in every way - no errors, no mistakes concerning grace, sin or doctrines of any kind.
So it seems best to follow Jesus.


Not doctrines with errors, sins, and many mistakes.

 

[Dave L]

That's not what he did at all. What he did was tell him how to be saved, which was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." It was a condition, just like Romans 10:9 is a condition. The same condition of salvation... if you believe, you will be saved. If not, then you are condemned already (John 3:18, John 3:36). To become sealed with the Spirit, one must FIRST hear and believe the Gospel according to Ephesians 1:13.

You have to be saved before you can believe enough to ask what to do.

 

[royal priest]

That’s not what he wrote. He himself, when he lay dying, wasn’t sure he was saved.

Understanding God's standard of righteousness will cause any person to despair of his or her own performance. It is only when such persons look outside of themselves to God's provision of righteousness for them which is applied by faith in Christ will they be filled with confidence of their attainment of Heaven.
Here is an excerpt from Calvin just before he died:
‘I render thanks to God, not only because he has had compassion on me, his poor creature, to draw me out of the abyss of idolatry in which I was plunged,
in order to bring me to the light of his gospel and make me a partaker of the doctrine of salvation, of which I was altogether unworthy,
and continuing his mercy he has supported me amid so many sins and shortcomings, which were such that I well deserved to be rejected by him a hundred thousand times
– but what is more, he has so far extended his mercy towards me as to make use of me and of my labour, to convey and announce the truth of his gospel;
protesting that it is my wish to live and die in this faith which he has bestowed on me, having no other hope nor refuge except in his gratuitous adoption, upon which all my salvation is founded;
embracing the grace which he has given me in our Lord Jesus Christ, and accepting the merits of his death and passion,
in order that by this means all my sins may be buried;
and praying him so to wash and cleanse me by the blood of this great Redeemer, which has been shed for us poor sinners,
that I may appear before his face, bearing as it were, his image.’

 

[-57]

Why? You do realize Christ died so there was forgiveness available as long as we make an effort and don't live in sin, right?

Are you another who claims they don't sin?

 

[-57]

And many of them believe that men are merely misinformed and just need God to point them in the right direction.
And as for those who reject the Gospel, well they just aren't as righteous as those who accept it.

Were they born not as righteous?
Is it where they grew up that made them not as righteous?
Was it their school?
Parents?

 

[royal priest]

If Paul was a Calvinist, he would have told the Philippian jailor "Be thou elect, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" when he asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

There's no point of having faith because it is God working within a person whether it's against their own will or not because there is no free will in Calvinism.

God uses means to accomplish His purposes. Making an appeal to believe and repent is one such means.
Most Calvinists understand this (excepting hyper-Calvinists).

 

[royal priest]

Were they born not as righteous?
Is it where they grew up that made them not as righteous?
Was it their school?
Parents?

By nature, we like to fancy ourselves as being righteous to some degree. We like to compare ourselves with others as if some people are worse sinners than others. But the Scriptures teach us that 'there are none righteous. No not one.'
And 'we all fall short of the glory of God'.
If anyone chooses to believe the Gospel it is not because they are better than the one that rejects it. Rather, it because the Spirit of God has begun to turn their hearts toward God.

 

[-57]

That God wants us to do good works and always has is not in question. This verse doesn’t say HOW we are saved in terms of God’s part nor show that He selected some and not others.

Romans 9 tells us we are selected before we are even born...do anything good or bad.....in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls.

 

[-57]

By nature, we like to fancy ourselves as being righteous to some degree. We like to compare ourselves with others as if some people are worse sinners than others. But the Scriptures teach us that 'there are none righteous. No not one.'
And 'we all fall short of the glory of God'.
If anyone chooses to believe the Gospel it is not because they are better than the one that rejects it. Rather, it because the Spirit of God has begun to turn their hearts toward God.

So, if the Spirit of God is turning your head toward God...why do many then reject this prompting?

 

[royal priest]

So, if the Spirit of God is turning your head toward God...why do many then reject this prompting?

I'm referring to the Spirit's work of regeneration. That work cannot be resisted. There is world of difference between men finding the Gospel attractive versus abandoning everything in order to have Jesus. The former is superficial while the latter is supernatural.

 

[bling]

Calvin completely missed the message in Romans 9. Paul is writing about God choosing to give mercy to the Gentiles. The Jews are the vessel for wrath and the Gentiles are the vessel for honor. Please read the lower portion carefully as I have pasted the two scriptures in Romans 9 together to make it more clear.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, " THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." And just as Isaiah foretold, " UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH." What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”

(Notice how this compares to “For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”)

The idea of the gentiles being the vessels of honor and the Jews being the vessels of dishonor is totally out of context.

You really need to look at other translations or at least look to see how Paul uses the same concept with the same Greek word for honor and dishonorable being, “common” and “special” 2Tim. 2:20-21. The Jews had a very special purpose on earth while the gentiles had a more common purpose. In 2 Tim. Paul is saying the dishonorable vessel (common vessel) can even become special vessel.

The Potter story has the vessels leaving His shop (humans being born) and nothing leaves His shop made for destruction like a clay pigeon. Any clay vessel can easily be damaged and worthless for the purpose it left the shop to fulfill, the Potter would not want His mark on a leaky vessel so those are made for destruction, but that is after leaving the shop.

Please look at my post 638.

 

[bling]

The question is whether or not Calvinism teaches that it is arbitrary. No, Calvinism doesn't.

Then as to your second comment, you are mistaken. To say that we do not know the standard that God uses (other than that it's in accord with his purposes) does not mean that the choosing is arbitrary. Maybe a check of a dictionary for the word arbitrary is in order.

The problem is when, it is said: “there is no difference between the individual God selects and those He does not select”, that is describing an arbitrary selection.

 

[bling]

So, if the Spirit of God is turning your head toward God...why do many then reject this prompting?

People have a real hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure sacrificial charity.