Is Calvinism Just?

[redleghunter]

Please show how He preselects gets some for heaven or hell before the foundation of the world is not unjust and two, please tell us the reasons God does as you believe he does in so selecting so we can drop the arbitrary nature of his so choosing.

Is the epistle to the Ephesians in your canon of Scriptures?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

It would have ben even shorter if you had focused on the OP. Please consider that next time.

 

[redleghunter]

Reformed theology insists God chooses some before the foundation of the world

Yes the Bible teaches this.

neglecting others.

No one but you and a few others here are claiming this.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is the epistle to the Ephesians in your canon of Scriptures?

Yes but it does not say “predestined for Heaven/salvation.” Read it again

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes the Bible teaches this.

No it doesn’t. Men teach that and it requires reading the bible with a black marker to edit it.

No one but you and a few others here are claiming this.

Well the Calvinists say “God selects some for Heaven before the foundation of the world” (they don’t know if there’s a reason) ignoring that means he selects some for hell too. If your father selected your brother to send to college before having any children and you not, you’d see clearly that he selected you not to go. If he decided his first and third born would receive all the financial support but you, the second, none, you’d see how he selected you to receive none.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No not arbitrary. The doctrines of Grace lay out the revealed Biblical truth.

God is not arbitrary in His choosing.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

How does this scripture address the Calvinist view of Gods preselecting not being arbitrary? Where is the verse that says he preselects some for heaven and why and not others?

It says his plan is preselected that we become like Jesus, all who believe. It doesn’t say he presets some for salvation. Salvation isn’t mentioned at all.

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn’t say we reading this are preselected from the foundation of the world for Heaven. Says that we who are believers today are to be doing good works which God has always intended men do.

Actually the previous chapter to the same audience says the elect are chosen before the foundations of the earth. So Paul does address this.

And no look at verse 10 it does not say what you want it to say. It addresses the cause, aka being the workmanship of God.

It means God always prepared and desires men do good works.

No it says those saved by Grace through faith are God’s workmanship for good works. Horse meet cart.

But you aren’t attaching good works before salvation are

No I’m not. Paul is clear our works have nothing to do with salvation. Again verses 8-9:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Agreed but salvation is not discussed here

Sure it is. See above.

Well if we don’t CHOOSE to do the good works He prepared, He doesn’t possess us and make us do them. None of this addresses how a man is saved. Salvation is not mentioned here at all. Paul is addressing believers, not how unbelievers become believers.

Again Paul is discussing salvation from verses 1 through 10.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, but it would be granted.
"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

So you believe everyone will have it granted? The text does not address this. Frankly you are making another proposition and not addressing the text.

Continuing with Matthew 13, Jesus explains the parable. Notice these passages will show that the soils don’t somehow change.

18“Hear then the parable of the sower.19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firmroot in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually the previous chapter to the same audience says the elect are chosen before the foundations of the earth. So Paul does address this.

Chosen for salvation or chosen to be like Jesus, all who decide to believe?

And no look at verse 10 it does not say what you want it to say. It addresses the cause, aka being the workmanship of God.

God works in and on those, and only those, who cooperate from their own free will. All who cooperate and submit as the clay allows itself to be formed, become his workmanship. Those who believe but refuse hinder his working in and through them. This is and always was His plan from the foundation of the world, not WHO would be involved.

No it says those saved by Grace through faith are God’s workmanship for good works. Horse meet cart.

Yes, with conditions of surrender and this applied justly to whosoever will.

No I’m not. Paul is clear our works have nothing to do with salvation. Again verses 8-9:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Salvation is a gift but if we want to be his workmanship, we must surrender like the clay. Surrender includes the more comforting theology too. He calls some who want to understand Him to leave theologies that guarantee heaven but make Him unjust (which he isn’t) in the process.

Again Paul is discussing salvation from verses 1 through 10.

Ill do a search for hoe often the word comes up in those verses. If it doesn’t, he isn’t.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just and fair are the same thing.

Just-based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair

Fair-marked by impartiality and honesty: free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism

I didn't say otherwise. I said fairness and mercy were not the same thing.

 

[redleghunter]

You guys always forget the obedience Abraham had to do.

Maybe carefully read that chapter. No one stripped out obedience in our relationship with God. In fact I already posted the following:


In 1 John 5, the Apostle John weaves faith, love, and obedience all together inextricably. They exist mutually in a dynamic relationship—as the genuine proof of love is obedience, so the genuine proof of faith is love. The word “keep” conveys the idea of constant obedience (John 8: 31, 32; 14: 15, 21; 15: 10).”

 

[redleghunter]

No it doesn’t. Men teach that and it requires reading the bible with a black marker to edit it.

No really the Apostle Paul taught this.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because according to Calvin’s doctrine of unconditional grace we can do nothing to influence God’s decision regarding election. So in essence God’s judgement would be the result of failing to meet His impossible expectations thereby making His judgement unjust.

Your equation is unbalanced. You've jumped a logical step or two. You use the fuzzy term "in essence" to help you do so.

How does the fact that one makes decisions according to his nature, and is held to an impossible standard (I'm not sure why you said "expectations") unjust? You seem to attribute worth where none is due. Remember, according to Reformed Theology, one does decide. Remember also, one's inability to choose what is right is because one WILLS TO NOT do what is right. There are no innocent victims here.

 

[redleghunter]

Well the Calvinists say “God selects some for Heaven before the foundation of the world”

No the Apostle Paul said this. Are you being willfully difficult?

(they don’t know if there’s a reason)

Yes Paul explains this too! The reason is:

In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

ignoring that means he selects some for hell too.

No all are condemned. God chooses to save some.

If your father selected your brother to send to college before having any children and you not, you’d see clearly that he selected you not to go. If he decided his first and third born would receive all the financial support but you, the second, none, you’d see how he selected you to receive none.

You mean like God choosing Judas to fulfill the Scriptures?

John 17: NASB

6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7“Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[redleghunter]

How does this scripture address the Calvinist view of Gods preselecting not being arbitrary? Where is the verse that says he preselects some for heaven and why and not others?

It says his plan is preselected that we become like Jesus, all who believe. It doesn’t say he presets some for salvation. Salvation isn’t mentioned at all.

The doctrines of Grace (aka “Calvinism) do not state God is arbitrary in His election. Only you have mentioned that. Maybe your beef is with God and His Holy Scriptures.

You are willfully ignoring the text of Ephesians 1. Maybe you should start using the Bible to present your arguments?

 

[Kenny'sID]

This is just the result of people not wanting to accept the truth and in most cases putting their own personal pride ahead of admitting their mistakes. I surely wasn’t born with my knowledge of the scriptures and made a lot of mistakes along the way. I’m sure I’ll make a lot more in the future. Hopefully less than before tho lol.

Agree

And selfishness, pure and simple. In spite of our sin, God offers us a very good deal that included sending his son to die for us, and how do we thank him, by doing worse than whining that we have to do a little something, and show ourselves approved, but we attempt to change his word to mean something else, or something we want it so mean. We follow doctrin of men instead of God.

And I know I sound like a broken record, but I can assure all, he's not at all happy about this.

The way I see it, those that must have it their way are ones that very likely would not have bothered to get saved at all because of the requirements, so nothing really changes accept the few that were sincere and would have gone Gods way had they not been led astray.

All we can do is speak against it, and with all the info on the net, there is a good chance that anyone who is serious, and really wants the truth, will be able to find it...thank God

 

[redleghunter]

Chosen for salvation or chosen to be like Jesus, all who decide to believe?

No the text does not say this. Address the relevant Scriptures.

God works in and on those, and only those, who cooperate from their own free will.

The text does not say this. Deal with the Scriptures quoted.

All who cooperate and submit as the clay allows itself to be formed, become his workmanship. Those who believe but refuse hinder his working in and through them. This is and always was His plan from the foundation of the world, not WHO would be involved.

There is nothing above remotely supported by the Bible.

Yes, with conditions of surrender and this applied justly to whosoever will.

Again this is not even remotely taught in the relevant Scriptures.

Salvation is a gift but if we want to be his workmanship, we must surrender like the clay. Surrender includes the more comforting theology too. He calls some who want to understand Him to leave theologies that guarantee heaven but make Him unjust (which he isn’t) in the process.

Clay is molded and not surrendered. You are now making things up.

Ill do a search for hoe often the word comes up in those verses. If it doesn’t, he is

Good. I’ve quoted that chapter at least 10 times so it should be easy to find. Hint “by Grace you have been saved.”

 

[redleghunter]

Agree

And selfishness, pure and simple. In spite of our sin, God offers us a very good deal that included sending his son to die for us, and how do we thank him, by doing worse than whining that we have to do a little something, and show ourselves approved, but we attempt to change his word to mean something else, or something we want it so mean. We follow doctrin of men instead of God.

And I know I sound like a broken record, but I can assure all, he's not at all happy about this.

The way I see it, those that must have it their way are ones that very likely would not have bothered to get saved at all because of the requirements, so nothing really changes accept the few that were sincere and would have gone Gods way had they not been led astray.

All we can do is speak against it, and with all the info on the net, there is a good chance that anyone who is serious, and really wants the truth, will be able to find it...thank God

An opus is not an argument.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It was simply a clarification on my part. I was asked if loving God and man was "work". I stated as I am a sinner, love is work. Love is sacrifice. But I was clarifying that this "work" doesn't save me.

My point being that God needs to intervene and regenerate me in order for me to truly love God and my neighbor.

Thanks for letting me know.

It's not so much you my post was geared towards, I guess I just get tired of hearing something that isn't true for the reasons I mentioned, so hope I didn't offend you too much... I want to save that for those who constantly make the claim when they know it isn't true. lol

 

[redleghunter]

Yes but it does not say “predestined for Heaven/salvation.” Read it again

It says this which covers both:

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us.