Is Calvinism Just?

[redleghunter]

That God wants us to do good works and always has is not in question. This verse doesn’t say HOW we are saved in terms of God’s part nor show that He selected some and not others.

That God wants us to do good works and always has is not in question. This verse doesn’t say HOW we are saved in terms of God’s part nor show that He selected some and not others.

I think you missed his point. The verse in question Ephesians 2:10 is not about God wanting us to do good works but “we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

We are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus. This is a transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

Which God prepared beforehand. Meaning before we do anything at all.

So that we would walk in them. This again the Grace of God who enables us.

All of the above is the work of God when we become a new creation in Him. Verses 8 and 9 is self explanatory. Not any works we do. Ezekiel 36:22-32 comes to mind here.

 

[Albion]

While you are there, check on the meaning of unconditional.

I've already explained that, too.

 

[redleghunter]

Let me ask you this: why tell someone how salvation works, if not to evangelize them?

Not following here. Are you asking why preach the Gospel if we know some will reject it?

If I tell you that the one who has ears will understand, would you think you have no chance of understanding?

Jesus answers your question here in the following verses of Matthew 13:


10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Jesus was stirring them to open thier hearts and ears.

Who exactly? Jesus explains why some hear and others don’t. He, Jesus granted it.

11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

They had God's teachings, but refused to see him as Messiah. It wasn't that they were incapable, it was a willful blindness.

Jesus stated it was a matter of it being granted.

11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think you missed his point. The verse in question Ephesians 2:10 is not about God wanting us to do good works but “we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

Doesn’t say we reading this are preselected from the foundation of the world for Heaven. Says that we who are believers today are to be doing good works which God has always intended men do.
a

Which God prepared beforehand. Meaning before we do anything at all.

It means God always prepared and desires men do good works. But you aren’t attaching good works before salvation are you?

So that we would walk in them. This again the Grace of God who enables us.

Agreed but salvation is not discussed here.

All of the above is the work of God when we become a new creation in Him. Verses 8 and 9 is self explanatory. Not any works we do. Ezekiel 36:22-32 comes to mind here.

Well if we don’t CHOOSE to do the good works He prepared, He doesn’t possess us and make us do them. None of this addresses how a man is saved. Salvation is not mentioned here at all. Paul is addressing believers, not how unbelievers become believers.

 

[renniks]

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

What was chosen? What was according to his will? That redemption would be available to those who believe. " We" are those who accept his offer of redemption. Chosen according to his foreknowledge.

I've already explained that, too.

I don't think you did. Unconditional means just that. If I pick people for my team with out any conditions, that's picking them arbitrarily.

 

[renniks]

Not following here. Are you asking why preach the Gospel if we know some will reject it?


Jesus answers your question here in the following verses of Matthew 13:


10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’


Who exactly? Jesus explains why some hear and others don’t. He, Jesus granted it.

11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.


Jesus stated it was a matter of it being granted.

11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Yes, but it would be granted.
"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What was chosen? What was according to his will? That redemption would be available to those who believe. " We" are those who accept his offer of redemption. Chosen according to his foreknowledge.

Where do you read, “chosen for Heaven” before hand?

I don't think you did. Unconditional means just that. If I pick people for my team with out any conditions, that's picking them arbitrarily.

No, arbitrary means for no reason. We can arbitrarily choose to do something but once chosen, conditions might then come into play.

 

[Albion]

I don't think you did. Unconditional means just that. If I pick people for my team with out any conditions, that's picking them arbitrarily.

I'm thinking this sticking point for you is related to the term Unconditional Election, which does not mean that God chooses his Elect randomly. It means that his choice is not based upon seeing their future good deeds and choosing on that basis. It means that in the decrees of election God did not choose according to anything meritorious found in man.

 

[redleghunter]

That’s not what he wrote. He himself, when he lay dying, wasn’t sure he was saved.

Source

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ok with the first question we could well look at it that way to why God chooses to save some and let others perish. And why he loves others and others he does not. But for no apparent reason. Are you sure that God would not have a reason for this ? That’s what I would look into more deeply. Surely God would have a reason for doing everything. And often it is beyond mere mortals like us to comprehend. With the drawing of one to God the wind blows where it chooses i guess it is a mystery in some ways but we still know that it is God at work. Maybe I confused you with someone else. Yes I’m sure that must be the case.

Still, I’ll answer. Your post is very typical Calvinist thinking but kinder than is often the case.

You start by saying there must be a reason why God loves/saves some but rejects others. This is good in the sense you believe God is good. Then you conclude with the surrender of understanding God recognizing there is no reconciliation in that theology between those two assumptions.

This is the only real option for Calvinist. One shuts down the mind. You admit you do not understand God and cannot. This is honest of you and you really deserve a better theology than Calvinism.

I believe God loves all men and desires and works towards all men being drawn unto Christ to be transformed and saved. God is understandable in this view. He is just and loving and worthy of honor if this is His character.

 

[redleghunter]

It shows if one believes what calvin taught, one cannot be sure.

I don’t believe a word of his teaching that i’ve read and I’m very sure of where my eternal destiny will be.

You have demonstrated you have not actually read anything from Calvin nor any Reformed theologian.

Why keep spreading rumors?

 

[Albion]

It shows if one believes what calvin taught, one cannot be sure.

I don’t believe a word of his teaching that i’ve read and I’m very sure of where my eternal destiny will be.

No one can be sure, no matter which line of though (s)he takes.

 

[redleghunter]

Still, I’ll answer. Your post is very typical Calvinist thinking but kinder than is often the case.

You start by saying there must be a reason why God loves/saves some but rejects others. This is good in the sense you believe God is good. Then you conclude with the surrender of understanding God recognizing there is no reconciliation in that theology between those two assumptions.

This is the only real option for Calvinist. One shuts down the mind. You admit you do not understand God and cannot. This is honest of you and you really deserve a better theology than Calvinism.

I believe God loves all men and desires and works towards all men being drawn unto Christ to be transformed and saved. God is understandable in this view. He is just and loving and worthy of honor if this is His character.

You did not address her comments but instead just created your own false narrative twisting her words. You have done this on multiple posts. What you are doing is uncharitable and dishonest.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No one can be sure, no matter which line of though (s)he takes.

You are wrong. I know and walk with God. I know his voice and have a lifetime of obeying it at least sometimes. I keep Jesus teaching and to that degree he has come and made his home in me. It’s all conditional, very conditional. It isn’t my theology that makes a difference, it’s knowing and obeying Him (the former highly dependent upon the latter.)

But if there were no heaven, no salvation, I’d walk with him the same.

 

[redleghunter]

How were they grafted in to begin with unless they believed?

God chose them as a nation. This was based on God’s promise to Abraham:

Romans 4: NASB
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOTTAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TOABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM ASRIGHTEOUSNESS. 23Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,25He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[Albion]

You have demonstrated you have not actually read anything from Calvin nor any Reformed theologian.

That thought crossed my mind as well, but every time this comes up on these forums we find ourselves dealing with members who first ask about Calvinism and then follow it up with statements in the vein of "well, I believe God would do X."

And that not for any reason other than they want to see God in the way they choose to define him. Reformed Christianity at least is content to let God be God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You did not address her comments but instead just created your own false narrative twisting her words. You have done this on multiple posts. What you are doing is uncharitable and dishonest.

I addressed them directly. She says God must have a reason, didn’t she?
She says she doesn’t know it, didn’t she?
What did I twist?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God chose them as a nation. This was based on God’s promise to Abraham:

Romans 4: NASB
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOTTAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TOABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM ASRIGHTEOUSNESS. 23Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,25He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

You guys always forget the obedience Abraham had to do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That thought crossed my mind as well, but every time this comes up on these forums we find ourselves dealing with members who first ask about Calvinism and then follow it up with statements in the vein of "well, I believe God would do X."

And that not for any reason other than they want to see God in the way they choose to define him. Reformed Christianity at least is content to let God be God.

You are joking right? Reformed theology insists God chooses some before the foundation of the world neglecting others. How do you see this demand on his actions as “letting Him be???”

 

[Albion]

You are joking right? Reformed theology insists God chooses some before the foundation of the world neglecting others. How do you see this demand on his actions “letting Him be???”

All you seem to be saying here is that you will believe in a God who measures up to your own demands about what a god ought to be. To believe in the God of the Bible is quite the opposite of that approach.