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Is Calvinism a heresy?

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QvQ

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Not sure where to start here, Firstly, there is no scripture quoted and no scripture paraphrased as far as I can see. Its a bit more poetic then the usual and enjoyable to read as a result but that's about it. Most of it falls into my category 2 above
2. They describe an esoteric , vague fuzzy concept of a 'no choice choice' by using various terms or word plays, (regenerated will, determinism etc). But really it is just a concept and not reality and definitively not in the Bible

But also some blatant contradictions
IT is humility to respect the fact that it isn't lack of reason or will that lead some to reject God.
The capacity to believe is given to some and not to others.
The concept of Election is not an arrogance, a pride or superiority. It is a humble question, Why?


It is not humility, it is absolute smug arrogance to presume- 'well i am err 'chosen' , cos I just am, shame about you btw, because you are errr not, sorry about that, anyway at least you will get lakeside property for eternity.( i am not quoting you here but just my opinion of an extension to what you seem to be saying)
If God was indeed like this I would not ask him 'why' I would ask him, 'what are you playing at? How can you be so unfair?
As long as we are getting personal, I was raised atheist, most of my friends and family are atheist.
To them, if I have been "elected" to anything, it is to being a delusional, science denier who believes in silly old fairy tales.
I do not have a "choice" I cannot deny God.
And they don't seem to have a choice either, because they can't see it and won't hear it.
I finally realized that it was God, the will of God, who made a believer out of me. If God so willed, He could make a believer out of them.
I can't convert them, not by word, deed or will. They, who believe they have the high ground of intellect and scientific knowledge, cannot convince me of the error of believing what to them, ranks with Grimms Fairy Tales.
That is the will of God.
 
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bbbbbbb

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As long as we are getting personal, I was raised atheist, most of my friends and family are atheist.
To them, if I have been "elected" to anything, it is to being a delusional, science denier who believes in silly old fairy tales.
I do not have a "choice" I cannot deny God.
And they don't seem to have a choice either, because they can't see it and won't hear it.
I finally realized that it was God, the will of God, who made a believer out of me. If God so willed, He could make a believer out of them.
I can't convert them, not by word, deed or will. They, who believe they have the high ground of intellect and superior scientific knowledge, cannot convince me of the error of believing what to them, ranks with Grimms Fairy Tales.
That is the will of God.
As I am sure you know, you are hardly unique. I tend to be skeptical of those who profess to be believers because they were reared in a Christian environment. They tend to take it for granted that they and/or their culture were the associative causes of their conversion.
 
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Mark Quayle

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@Mark Quayle @DialecticSkeptic @QvQ I have masters degree in research methodology, I have a plausible and easily doable research question to pose,-do Christians who adhere to a reformed theology viewpoint have a higher IQ on average than those who do not?
I think the answer will be yes, what du think?
I ask you to reflect on that. Do you think God wrote the Gospel for only the intellectual to fully understand? Really? Come on?
Or does God choose the foolish things (me) to confound the wise (some of you) ! Cor 1 27

The arguments presented here are becoming transparent to me, they seem to fall into three categories
1. They evoke a God who is beyond understanding '(God is mysterious, God can do as he pleases') to explain and justify an unloving/uncaring God which is completely contrary to the Bible's description of Him
2. They describe an esoteric , vague fuzzy concept of a 'no choice choice' by using various terms or word plays, (regenerated will, determinism etc). But really it is just a concept and not reality and definitively not in the Bible.
3. An understandable misinterpretation (e.g.Rom 8:28-29) of some scripture and a deliberate ignoring or frank eisegesis of other scripture. (acts 17:28)

But the fact is that two modern day revelators Kat Kerr and Robin Bullock have both said that there is no predestination to accept Christ. Kerr describes The Holy Spirit as saying 'we choose to be chosen; . Either they are liars or you are wrong. I have prayerfully checked the scriptures to see if what they say is true and I have no doubt it is. I find no evidence to support reformed theology view but plenty for theirs.
I know you love scripture but do you also love your own 'brilliance ' at interpreting it?
I have not heard one of you say you will prayerfully seek guidance on this. nor have I heard you say you do not understand a certain passage of scripture or even accept there may be a different interpretation of it .
I have got my teeth stuck into your position and the grip is getting tighter not looser and the death roll approaches fast.
Haha! I get a bill in the mail, and I'm pleased, because, I think, "Well, somebody knows I exist!" But then when I open it I see it is a bogus charge, for something I never ordered, from someone with whom I have no common ground. So thanks for putting my name in your list!

No. Higher IQ, I doubt. More educated, perhaps, in general, of late, because they don't necessarily accept the prevailing common notions and mindset of arminianistic thinking the last perhaps couple hundred years, maybe more.

Being a missionary kid, I often refer to a theoretical (that is, to no particular person, though there were several) old campesina lady who walked to church regularly, probably couldn't read; yet, if you asked her any of the Reformed tenets she would wholeheartedly with tears of joy agree with them, though she had been attending an arminianistic church. She KNOWS sovereign grace. We are all theologians —even children and atheists.

But I have to say, whenever I hear from those who object to Reformed/Calvinist doctrine, their objections are couched in terms to repulse the human heart. I could spend time destroying your strawmen, but there is no need. All I have to do is show how a few of them are strawmen (which has already been done repeatedly), and your assumptions are false in your 'sure' statements (also already done repeatedly), and no need to continue to fight you. Your crowing and bellowing may impress your kind, but they prove nothing.

Perhaps, other than your misuse of scripture, most condemning of your POV and its claims, is where you point to two supposed 'revelators' as authorities. In past posts, you have told me that you found them to be "mostly right" in their predictions. "Mostly right" is not the Scriptural test for revelators. You no doubt find great joy in your new-found concepts and constructions —don't we all?— but when the village idiot dances, chattering, in the face of someone walking down the street, he is likely to be pushed aside, even rudely.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I picture a spokesman for all those in Hell saying 'yep we are all in Hell for eternity but dont worry God loves us' LOL again.
We, the Redeemed, are already the body of Christ, but we don't quite see it so, as yet. Going by this concept of "already, but not yet", your spokesman is already doing that, right here on earth, though we don't see it as such, as yet —the reprobate 'believer', teaching, instead of the power of God, the kindly old Grandfather doting on his children.
 
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QvQ

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We are all theologians —even children and atheist
Me Too!
Atheism carries within it the seeds of its own destruction. It is based on the premise that God does not exist. And a person is going to ask, "Is that true? Does God exist"
Ask and ye shall receive.
I was curious,
As an atheist I conducted an inquiry into the question of whether God exists.
I found that God exists. The truth is the answer to the question. God is the truth.
 
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Dan1988

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because of their behavior or because of how they were made because they were made in God 's image?
So which number would you go for to summarise His treatment of the unsaved from a predestination viewpoint. No 5 very unloving and uncaring then? You comfortable with that?
I do not think God ''sends' them to hell, btw they send themselves there by rejecting Christ. God is the post man- man does the addressing.
God just follows the deep and just rules/laws.
Their behavior is the fruits of who they are. Only Adam and Eve were created in Gods image, the rest of mankind bares the image of Satan our federal head.
Satan became the Prince of this world, when Adam obeyed Satan and sinned against God. We are all born as Satan's subjects and God's enemies. We have no power to resist the temptation to sin, so we're totally depraved creatures.

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

We read here that Seth was born after Adams image and not God's image as many falsely believe.

We're all born dead in our sin nature, we have no desire to serve God. If God doesn't intervene and regenerate us, we would all die in our sin and then The Lord Jesus Christ would have to cast us into hell. Nobody chooses to to go to hell, as it's a place of extreme torture and punishment, The Lord has to cast (throw) billions into hell.

God is unable to just forgive sinners, it goes against His nature. Sin can only be atoned for with the blood of a sinless man, there is no other way to be forgiven. If God could just wink at sin, then He would be a hypocrite and liar.

God never told us why He chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, that's His personal business and we have no right to question anything He does. God has hidden most things from us and only revealed a few things, He obviously doesn't allow us to see what He has hidden but sinful man dabbles in witchcraft and black magic to try and find out what God is hiding. That's why He will cast all of them into hell,
 
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jameslouise

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All I have to do is show how a few of them are strawmen (which has already been done repeatedly), and your assumptions are false in your 'sure' statements (also already done repeatedly), and no need to continue to fight you
I must have missed them being repeatedly corrected- more like ignored because you repeatedly can not answer the questions i pose?
Not really a strawman either more a precise implication of what you say. e.g. You shamefully portray God the Father as uncaring and unloving to many of his offspring
their objections are couched in terms to repulse the human heart.
Not as much as you portraying an unloving God repulses mine
Your crowing and bellowing may impress your kind, but they prove nothing
Im not sure about the crowing and bellowing bit but I do not mind it if you wish to call me names, I really dont, but it is you who can not answer my questions and repeatedly too because i think they are actually proof- or at least they are logical with regard to scripture interpretation. But also because they are Holy Spirit led insights-not necessarily from me. I pray every day' 'I ask for insight into your scripture lord and I receive it.'
You should try this specifically over acts 17:28, God will not let you down. I read it and surrounding paragraphs 7 times and try and see how it might be testifying to Chrsit, well that is what I do anyway. I challenge you to try it? Or do you know so much scripture you do not need to? Because that Acts passage on its own crushes the reformed theology / Calvinist doctrine. Once you know God the Father had some sort of relationship with every single man in this 'base' spirit form then the pre-selection of only some to make it to heaven becomes recognizable as the hideous man-made and imo God slandering doctrine it really is.
Perhaps, other than your misuse of scripture, most condemning of your POV and its claims, is where you point to two supposed 'revelators' as authorities. In past posts, you have told me that you found them to be "mostly right" in their predictions. "Mostly right" is not the Scriptural test for revelators
I think you may be getting confused here. i do not remember saying it as you say and as you yourself are pretty sensitive to being misquoted I think you should try and use the quote facility, I have searched this thread for the words 'mostly right ' together and they only come up in your post as far as i can see?
But to be clear, I believe that all the prophecies of Robin Bullock and Kat Kerr come true/ will come true but some not yet. For instance Kerr prophesied Trump first election win well before it looked even remotely possible.
As a way of testing them both for you? -both say Trump won the 2020 election and will be reinstated and there will be a 'red sea moment' when major corruption throughout the whole world will be exposed.
I am sure you will agree that that cannot be predicted by man, but only by God. So if it does not come true they are both done- finished . If it does then your viewpoint is also done and finished i'm afraid as both have said we 'choose to be chosen' and kerr says Acts 17:28 means exactly as i have described.
but when the village idiot dances, chattering, in the face of someone walking down the street, he is likely to be pushed aside, even rudely.
I think that is a well observed and very applicable metaphor, but I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself and I will not push you aside :)
Perhaps, other than your misuse of scripture,
Point my misuse out then? Please start with romans 8:27-29 then go to john 12:48 then acts 17 28, please be precise to individual words.
i ask you to print out my interpenetration of Acts 17:28- precise , every word considered and logical conclusions drawn, the context also described see message 459 Is Calvinism a heresy? show it your Christians friends and see what they think and then compare it to your meandering summary of the verse although I cannot locate which message it was in unfortunatley.
 
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jameslouise

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As long as we are getting personal, I was raised atheist, most of my friends and family are atheist.
To them, if I have been "elected" to anything, it is to being a delusional, science denier who believes in silly old fairy tales.
I do not have a "choice" I cannot deny God.
And they don't seem to have a choice either, because they can't see it and won't hear it.
I finally realized that it was God, the will of God, who made a believer out of me. If God so willed, He could make a believer out of them.
I can't convert them, not by word, deed or will. They, who believe they have the high ground of intellect and scientific knowledge, cannot convince me of the error of believing what to them, ranks with Grimms Fairy Tales.
That is the will of God.
I liked this reply your love of the Lord shines through and it is a credit to you but//
To them, if I have been "elected" to anything, it is to being a delusional, science denier who believes in silly old fairy tales.
I do not have a "choice" I cannot deny God
You may need to brush up on your debating skills because the creation/evolution debate is over- I recommend listening to Stephen Meyer on youtube
And they don't seem to have a choice either, because they can't see it and won't hear it
I disagree, the Romans 1 tells us that the default is God as does psalm 19:1 and Ecc 3:11. The default was God , They had to step away from it and i bet many of them secretly still know it btw.
I finally realized that it was God, the will of God, who made a believer out of me. If God so willed, He could make a believer out of them

Thats the bit that crosses the line for me, So God does not 'will' everyone to be saved. To focus on what you are implying with this statement I ask you the same question as before, given that Acts17:28 says we are all his offspring (and many other passages support this too)> So with that in mind how would YOU in your humans terms qualify God's treatment of the ones he chose not to 'will' to salvation. What type of Father was He to them?
1. very loving and caring
2. loving and caring
3. neutral
4. unloving and uncaring
5 very unloving and caring
Your answer please? and please do not say God is mysterious as your answer, He is in deed unfathomable but this treatment of humans is most definitely 'fathomable' and measurable and understandable by man.
You will ALSO have to concede that the plain text meaning of 1 Tim 2:4 could be that God wants everyone saved and not just all 'types' of men. the plain text supports me not you. You have to jump through the hoops with this text not me. If God wants all men saved why does He not will all men saved?

You say God willed your salvation. What difference would you feel within you/yourself if it was not God willing and 'taking over' you but just God convincing you and you yourself realizing the truth and making the decision - they are completely different things? Are they not the same feelings but just viewed from preconceptions?
 
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jameslouise

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My marriage proposal and the patellar reflex

After a 10 year courtship I proposed to my wife on West kirby high point and she accepted. I chose her and she chose me. She chose to be chosen by me. This is how marriage has to be? Likewise man in the Bible surely? .What if i had 'brainwashed' my wife into marrying me, so that my case of presenting to myself was so strong she lost her own individual sense of reason and had no choice but to follow my will.. Would that still be a marriage? Is that what a marriage is like? Worse still what if it was an arranged marriage, as some faiths do, decided before her birth, a forced and arranged marriage is clearly to most not quite right in this day and age.
Isnt that what the reformed theologists and Calvinnists present?

Physiology
Tap the patellar tendon and without a nerve messages going through the brain at all, the knee jerks. Is the Gospel just tapping the knee just for some in your theological viewpoint? A bypass of man's will.
But here is the crux, the mind can overrule this reflex and even stronger reflexes like the blinking mechanism or even removing your hand from hot fire. Man is in control of these ultimately. Likewise the final decision to accept Christ is ours and ours alone.
There are times when this control is lost, eg involuntary ticks or twitches but tellingly these are always considered pathological. Like wise spiritually with demonic possession when our will is controlled, it is considered evil.( Even demons have to have permission to enter us though in the first place.)
I suggest that, loss of control of the will or brainwashing (even if it is for good) cannot be God's route to our salvation
 
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QvQ

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I liked this reply your love of the Lord shines through and it is a credit to you but//
"To know Him is to love Him" Do I have a choice?
You may need to brush up on your debating skills because the creation/evolution debate is over- I recommend listening to Stephen Meyer on youtube
Science is a description and a crude explanation of what man observes at a particular time. If the images of galaxies from Webb telescope are actually mature galaxies, then the creation/evolution debate has only begun.
Our ideas of linear time may be an illusion due to some curvature of space time.
My guess is as good as yours, as I remind my "scientific" friends.
Thats the bit that crosses the line for me, So God does not 'will' everyone to be saved. To focus on what you are implying with this statement I ask you the same question as before, given that Acts17:28 says we are all his offspring (and many other passages support this too)> So with that in mind how would YOU in your humans terms qualify God's treatment of the ones he chose not to 'will' to salvation. What type of Father was He to them?
1. very loving and caring
2. loving and caring
3. neutral
4. unloving and uncaring
5 very unloving and caring
Your answer please? and please do not say God is mysterious as your answer, He is in deed unfathomable but this treatment of humans is most definitely 'fathomable' and measurable and understandable by man.
You will ALSO have to concede that the plain text meaning of 1 Tim 2:4 could be that God wants everyone saved and not just all 'types' of men. the plain text supports me not you. You have to jump through the hoops with this text not me. If God wants all men saved why does He not will all men saved?

This bit crosses the line for me.
God in a Box, and Judged?
God is reduced to a self selected definition of "loving father" and that definition is subject to a list of criteria by which He may be judged.
I choose:
#6 Job 1:21 "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of Lord.
You might read The Book of Job instead of watching youtube videos.

What difference would you feel within you/yourself if it was not God willing and 'taking over' you but just God convincing you and you yourself realizing the truth and making the decisio
Convince me of what?
That God exists?
God did convince me of that

However Cat exists, I see cat
I suppose you would say that seeing cat, I have to decide what to do with cat. Cat is subordinate to me, subject to my limited free will
(that is saying anyone can enforce "will" on a cat)
God is not subordinate. I am subordinate and subject to God's will.


There are too many "you" in that quoted sentence.
God convinces you.... you realize... your.... decision..
All about you, yourself, acknowleging the existence of and granting the petition of God with your magic will
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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You have a problem, then, as Acts 17:28 can only logically mean everyone.

There is no dispute that it's referring to everyone. The dispute is over whether we are offspring as begotten by God (as Father) or generated by him (as Creator). And I think we have two important clues to influence our understanding, one in this passage itself and another in John 3:16 and 1:14. On the one hand, we are told that "in him we live and move and have our being," which is not the kind of language used to describe begotten children (cf. v. 25); children are able to exist independent of their parents, but no one can exist independent of God. On the other hand, Jesus is described as God's "one and only Son" (John 3:16), "as of an only born from a father (1:14; Gk. hos monogenous para patros), the firstborn over all creation by whom, through whom, and for whom all things were created, including us (Col 1:15-16). Other than the Son, all of God's children are products of adoption, which is a component of salvation and describes only believers. One is either a child of God or a child of the evil one.

Certain Jews had said to Jesus, "The only Father we have is God himself" (John 8:41). If you had been there, I suppose you would have agreed with them. But Jesus said, "If God were your Father, you would love me ... You belong to your father, the devil" (vv. 42-44).


"For we are also his offspring ..." ... This is, I believe, an indication that we were made from God himself, a copy-and-paste of his "tissue" ...

There is only one who fits that description, namely, Jesus, the one and only Son of God who was "in the form of God" (Php 2:6) and "the exact imprint of his nature" (Heb 1:3).


LOL so to not predestine someone to go to Heaven is being categorised by you as 'very caring and very loving'.

You asked how I would characterize God's treatment of those he doesn't predestine to salvation, and I said that I'd characterize his treatment of them as very loving and caring—which should be easy to see when you consider that what they deserve is immediate judgment. And yet they live long lives chasing their every sinful desire in full rebellion against him. Their life, their health, their families, their wealth, all things from God which they don't deserve, and he withholds the judgment they do deserve.
 
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The Liturgist

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Haha! I get a bill in the mail, and I'm pleased, because, I think, "Well, somebody knows I exist!" But then when I open it I see it is a bogus charge, for something I never ordered, from someone with whom I have no common ground. So thanks for putting my name in your list!

No. Higher IQ, I doubt. More educated, perhaps, in general, of late, because they don't necessarily accept the prevailing common notions and mindset of arminianistic thinking the last perhaps couple hundred years, maybe more.

Being a missionary kid, I often refer to a theoretical (that is, to no particular person, though there were several) old campesina lady who walked to church regularly, probably couldn't read; yet, if you asked her any of the Reformed tenets she would wholeheartedly with tears of joy agree with them, though she had been attending an arminianistic church. She KNOWS sovereign grace. We are all theologians —even children and atheists.

But I have to say, whenever I hear from those who object to Reformed/Calvinist doctrine, their objections are couched in terms to repulse the human heart. I could spend time destroying your strawmen, but there is no need. All I have to do is show how a few of them are strawmen (which has already been done repeatedly), and your assumptions are false in your 'sure' statements (also already done repeatedly), and no need to continue to fight you. Your crowing and bellowing may impress your kind, but they prove nothing.

Perhaps, other than your misuse of scripture, most condemning of your POV and its claims, is where you point to two supposed 'revelators' as authorities. In past posts, you have told me that you found them to be "mostly right" in their predictions. "Mostly right" is not the Scriptural test for revelators. You no doubt find great joy in your new-found concepts and constructions —don't we all?— but when the village idiot dances, chattering, in the face of someone walking down the street, he is likely to be pushed aside, even rudely.

Well as someone who has been both Calvinist (but not 5 point Synod of Dort Calvinist) and non-Calvinist* I wish this thread hadn’t suggest Calvinism is a heresy. For my part, I am of the opinion that neither the determinist aspects of Calvinism or the non-determinist aspects of most (possibly all) Patristic theology and Arminianism can be proven from Scripture.

Also, this kind of debate reduces Calvinism to a single issue, when as our friend @hedrick can attest, there is a lot more to Calvinist theology, and the theology of churches which embraced his doctrine in whole (such as the Continental Reformed churches, the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland, the Covenanters (Reformed Presbyterian Church), the Free Church of Scotland, and formerly in England, now a part of the United Reformed Church) or in part (Puritans, Congregationalists, Particular Baptists, and so-called Calvinist Baptists in the Southern Baptist Convention led by the likes of Dr. Albert Mohler).

For my part, I think the answer is we have effective free will to embrace or reject the Holy Spirit, although God owing to his omniscience does know who will decide to reciprocate His love and who will refuse Him.

I would also stress the only basis I have for opting for this approach to determinism is the lack of ongoing support among the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church, of TULIP determinism and the rejection of monergism by the Oriental Orthodox and the Chalcedonians (who rejected it at the Second Council of Constantinople).

The same council rejected universalism, which did have Patristic support and is a form of monergism, along with Pelagianism (since in all three cases, it is divine action alone that is Salvific). We know that whas is now the Assyrian Church of the East once professed a diluted form of which which could be called exaggerated apokatastasis, based on the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian and Mar Shelêmôn the Bishop of Basra** This controversial doctrine was also embraced in the third and fourth century by Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. So there is some Patristic basis for monergism, but it seems to me the consensus patrum (a term coined by Calvinist theologians, as John Calvin to his credit was well versed and strongly invested in Patristics, and like Luther and Cranmer saw himself as reversing errors in the Roman Catholic Church to return to a Patristic-Apostolic basis.

But other than these issues, and iconoclasm, which many Calvinist churches later rejected in the 19th century, something I am very happy about, I tend to like Calvinism and Calvinist churches. Indeed the greatest moral theologian since the repose of Pope St. John Paul II, was Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, who reposed in 2007, and today I think Dr. Albert Mohler of the SBC is probably the leading moral theologian of our time.

I particularly loved Dr. Kennedy; his early 1980s sermon condemning abortion as immoral and sinful is beautiful and compelling, and I believe it was one of the seminal works that motivated the Pro Life movement that united Catholics, conservative Protestants and the Orthodox and Assyrians in opposition to abortion, which paid off last summer with the repeal of Roe vs. Wade. And Dr. Kennedy’s moral theology was informed by Calvinism, and while thus like Pope John Paul II, was based on sources derived from medieval scholastic theology, a transformative process occurred with Calvin and John Knox, who Dr. Kennedy had a particular admiration for (he set up a seminary, the John Knox School of Theology, across the street from Coral Ridge).

*I don’t want to say Arminian, because Arminius had a whole slew of beliefs that the Remonstrant Church used to profess, before it degenerated into one of the smallest and most liberal historic mainline churches, with just 6 churches, unsurprising given that they tolerate non-Nicene Christology and encourage new members to write their own creed, which is obviously spitting in the face of the Council of Ephesus in 433 (and Chalcedon in 451, and Constantinople II in the 6th century, Constantinople III in the 7th century, and Nicaea II in 787 AD (although regarding this council and the equivalent Oriental Orthodoc position I doubt Arminius differed from the Dutch Reformed Church concerning iconography)
 
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I find myself wishing that we could settle this argument by saying that no, Calvinism is not a heresy, because Calvinists ardently adhere to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, the CF.com Statement of Faith, and neither TULIP nor Free Will can be proven or disproven from Scripture.

Rather Calvinism is a legitimate option for Christians, which at present I have moved away from, but I think Calvinism, especially the specific theology of John Calvin, aside from his iconoclasm and monergism, is very interesting and beautiful based on whaf @hedrick and others have shared with me, and likewise the 19th century Mercersburg Theology movement among Presbyterians in the US and Scoto-Catholicism in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and likewise the related High Church movement in Congregationalism, and the liturgy of Rev. John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House, and more recently the Year D correction suggested for the horribly defective Revised Common Lectionary by the Presbyterian seminary professor Timothy Slemmons, are all brilliant.

Indeed, I wish every church using the RCL would adopt Year D*, or at least a modified version of it (since Slemmons ran out of suitable texts for some holidays like Christmas, resulting in a set of lections which are by his admission unlikely to work well on their own).

*Or better yet, revert to a one year lectionary, which is what was historically used by all Christian churches that employed a lectionary vs. lectio selecta or lectio continua until the 20th century.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I find myself wishing that we could settle this argument by saying that no, Calvinism is not a heresy, because Calvinists ardently adhere to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, the CF.com Statement of Faith, and neither TULIP nor Free Will can be proven or disproven from Scripture.

Rather Calvinism is a legitimate option for Christians, which at present I have moved away from, but I think Calvinism, especially the specific theology of John Calvin, aside from his iconoclasm and monergism, is very interesting and beautiful based on whaf @hedrick and others have shared with me, and likewise the 19th century Mercersburg Theology movement among Presbyterians in the US and Scoto-Catholicism in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and likewise the related High Church movement in Congregationalism, and the liturgy of Rev. John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House, and more recently the Year D correction suggested for the horribly defective Revised Common Lectionary by the Presbyterian seminary professor Timothy Slemmons, are all brilliant.

Indeed, I wish every church using the RCL would adopt Year D*, or at least a modified version of it (since Slemmons ran out of suitable texts for some holidays like Christmas, resulting in a set of lections which are by his admission unlikely to work well on their own).

*Or better yet, revert to a one year lectionary, which is what was historically used by all Christian churches that employed a lectionary vs. lectio selecta or lectio continua until the 20th century.
Well as someone who has been both Calvinist (but not 5 point Synod of Dort Calvinist) and non-Calvinist* I wish this thread hadn’t suggest Calvinism is a heresy. For my part, I am of the opinion that neither the determinist aspects of Calvinism or the non-determinist aspects of most (possibly all) Patristic theology and Arminianism can be proven from Scripture.

Also, this kind of debate reduces Calvinism to a single issue, when as our friend @hedrick can attest, there is a lot more to Calvinist theology, and the theology of churches which embraced his doctrine in whole (such as the Continental Reformed churches, the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland, the Covenanters (Reformed Presbyterian Church), the Free Church of Scotland, and formerly in England, now a part of the United Reformed Church) or in part (Puritans, Congregationalists, Particular Baptists, and so-called Calvinist Baptists in the Southern Baptist Convention led by the likes of Dr. Albert Mohler).

For my part, I think the answer is we have effective free will to embrace or reject the Holy Spirit, although God owing to his omniscience does know who will decide to reciprocate His love and who will refuse Him.

I would also stress the only basis I have for opting for this approach to determinism is the lack of ongoing support among the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church, of TULIP determinism and the rejection of monergism by the Oriental Orthodox and the Chalcedonians (who rejected it at the Second Council of Constantinople).

The same council rejected universalism, which did have Patristic support and is a form of monergism, along with Pelagianism (since in all three cases, it is divine action alone that is Salvific). We know that whas is now the Assyrian Church of the East once professed a diluted form of which which could be called exaggerated apokatastasis, based on the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian and Mar Shelêmôn the Bishop of Basra** This controversial doctrine was also embraced in the third and fourth century by Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa. So there is some Patristic basis for monergism, but it seems to me the consensus patrum (a term coined by Calvinist theologians, as John Calvin to his credit was well versed and strongly invested in Patristics, and like Luther and Cranmer saw himself as reversing errors in the Roman Catholic Church to return to a Patristic-Apostolic basis.

But other than these issues, and iconoclasm, which many Calvinist churches later rejected in the 19th century, something I am very happy about, I tend to like Calvinism and Calvinist churches. Indeed the greatest moral theologian since the repose of Pope St. John Paul II, was Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, who reposed in 2007, and today I think Dr. Albert Mohler of the SBC is probably the leading moral theologian of our time.

I particularly loved Dr. Kennedy; his early 1980s sermon condemning abortion as immoral and sinful is beautiful and compelling, and I believe it was one of the seminal works that motivated the Pro Life movement that united Catholics, conservative Protestants and the Orthodox and Assyrians in opposition to abortion, which paid off last summer with the repeal of Roe vs. Wade. And Dr. Kennedy’s moral theology was informed by Calvinism, and while thus like Pope John Paul II, was based on sources derived from medieval scholastic theology, a transformative process occurred with Calvin and John Knox, who Dr. Kennedy had a particular admiration for (he set up a seminary, the John Knox School of Theology, across the street from Coral Ridge).

*I don’t want to say Arminian, because Arminius had a whole slew of beliefs that the Remonstrant Church used to profess, before it degenerated into one of the smallest and most liberal historic mainline churches, with just 6 churches, unsurprising given that they tolerate non-Nicene Christology and encourage new members to write their own creed, which is obviously spitting in the face of the Council of Ephesus in 433 (and Chalcedon in 451, and Constantinople II in the 6th century, Constantinople III in the 7th century, and Nicaea II in 787 AD (although regarding this council and the equivalent Oriental Orthodoc position I doubt Arminius differed from the Dutch Reformed Church concerning iconography)
I knew that you respected Calvinism, or more specifically, I thought, Reformed Theology, but I had forgotten you saying you had once counted yourself among them. As to your asterisked last paragraph, for whatever it might be worth, I have begun using the term, "arminianistic", since in many cases "Arminian" isn't suitable. And, of course, by that, all I mean is that although such a person mostly holds to orthodoxy, he differs from monergism and the Calvinistic 'regeneration-first', or maybe, more to the point, such a person has a mindset of self-determination, of the ability of man's choice to operate independent of God's decree. There are many more things, but that is it in the main: synergism and libertarian free-will. But I think those are both only testimony to the bigger, prevailing, problem —the insistence on self-determination, as opposed to utter dependence on God.

But I will admit to considerable surprise and puzzlement to the grace of God, not only to me and those of my persuasion in this matter, but the more than obvious fact to me that he gathers and keeps his own, regardless of their doctrinal and even political persuasions. The elect are not only of every tribe and nation, but of every stripe.

In the last 20 years or more that I have frequented religion forums and specifically-Christian forums on different sites, I too have noticed, to my surprise, how often Universalists sound monergistic. I have several times found myself agreeing with them wholeheartedly until suddenly this big wall raises up between us, and I realize then that they are universalists. I don't think I would characterize them as a form of monergism, but that they may hold to a form of monergism. After all —at least to my mind— monergism is just the bare description, not the use of it.

But to me, monergism is just another of the implications of Grace. In fact, you may have heard me go on, now and then, about how even in the process of Christian growth and maturing and sanctification, to my mind monergism is still going on, though in sanctification we do have "more to do with it" than in justification. It is still God, who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. The whole matter, from beginning to end, is the work of God. HE spoke it into existence. And apart from him we can do nothing. And what we do does not increase nor complete his work, but is part of his work.

I VERY much appreciate you mentioning that Calvinism is much more than the monergism/ predestination/ freewill arguments. But I spend so much time on those that I almost invariably anymore find myself going there. But those issues are really just some more implications of sovereignty/ aseity/ omnipotence/ simplicity/ immanence.

Aaargh!! I know you are aware, like me, of the limitations of the human mind to understand and express the facts concerning God, because of the OTHERNESS of God. It is frustrating to me, because I have to do what I can, but I can't find the words I need, nor even the concepts! But in retrospect, I see it is a good thing, because even in this silly weakness, anything worthy that comes of it is, as always, God's doing.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You asked how I would characterize God's treatment of those he doesn't predestine to salvation, and I said that I'd characterize his treatment of them as very loving and caring—which should be easy to see when you consider that what they deserve is immediate judgment. And yet they live long lives chasing their every sinful desire in full rebellion against him. Their life, their health, their families, their wealth, all things from God which they don't deserve, and he withholds the judgment they do deserve.
Amen THAT! And in fact, in spite of their ungratefulness, presumption and rebellion, he restrains them from going as far into depraved sinfulness as they would otherwise go, thus limiting their despair during this temporal life, and their just punishment in the next.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Amen THAT! And in fact, in spite of their ungratefulness, presumption and rebellion, he restrains them from going as far into depraved sinfulness as they would otherwise go, thus limiting their despair during this temporal life, and their just punishment in the next.
Were it up to me as grand inquisitor of the internet I would call that heresy.
Alas, I am not, and there is no internet inquisition.
How far we've moved from the joys of middle ages enforcement and methods!
:liturgy:
20230305_133413.jpg
 
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jameslouise

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"To know Him is to love Him" Do I have a choice?
Yes every second of every day, it is wortless otherwise, check out message 469 about brainwashing and reflexes
This bit crosses the line for me.
God in a Box, and Judged?
God is reduced to a self selected definition of "loving father" and that definition is subject to a list of criteria by which He may be judged.
I choose:
#6 Job 1:21 "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of Lord.
You might read The Book of Job instead of watching youtube videos
The standard reply of reformed theology,, you seem to try to justify measurable unjust and unloving behavior by invoking God is mysterious or quoting examples of God righteously issuing justice. I aint buying it not for a second. It reminds me a lot of the atheist stance- think of a name and describe you want it to do and the start believing in that made up concept or even worshiping it e.g. Big Bang, punctuated equilibrium
J too love the book of Job here's a quote:
Job 37:10 (KJV)
By the breath (rochab) of God frost (qerach),is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened (muwtsaq)
When did happen then? When did God freeze water to ice with his breath?

That God exists?
God did convince me of that

However Cat exists, I see cat
I suppose you would say that seeing cat, I have to decide what to do with cat. Cat is subordinate to me, subject to my limited free will
(that is saying anyone can enforce "will" on a cat)
God is not subordinate. I am subordinate and subject to God's will.


There are too many "you" in that quoted sentence.
God convinces you.... you realize... your.... decision..
All about you, yourself, acknowledging the existence of and granting the petition of God with your magic wil
I think I gotcha here, my point is that if God gave you a convincing argument and you accepted that argument with a joypous heart in you own mind and will OR// if God regenerated your will and made your mind up for you, then from your mind's perspective and your theological viewpoint you could not tell them apart. Tell me the differences otherwise again from m your mind's perspective.. I think you would quickly describe something more akin to a reflex, brainwashing or possession. see message 469 again..
 
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jameslouise

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Their behavior is the fruits of who they are. Only Adam and Eve were created in Gods image, the rest of mankind bares the image of Satan our federal head
In his image has at least 3 layers
1.Body spirit and soul- parallel Jesus, God the Father and The Holy Spirit
2.A base spirit from God the Father, and indwellings for Jesus an The Holy Spirit
3.All our self is conformed to the image of Christ
We were all created in 1. b ut we get the other two when saved
God never told us why He chooses to save some and leave others in their sin, that's His personal business and we have no right to question anything He does.
It absolutely is our business and it is to do with us, how can we worship such a God of secrets about how we are treated?
There is no dispute that it's referring to everyone. The dispute is over whether we are offspring as begotten by God (as Father) or generated by him (as Creator
So. if you agree that the we of acts 17:28 is everyone, then not everyone is in Christ, so:
In him-who is the him? when were we in him? and what form were we when we were in him?
There is only one who fits that description, namely, Jesus, the one and only Son of God who was "in the form of God" (Php 2:6) and "the exact imprint of his nature" (Heb 1:3)
As well as the question on acts 17:28,

(Ephesians 1:3) We (Paul and all of us) received gifts (past tense) in heavenly places in Christ. When? Concepts or prophetic projections do not get gifts?
(James 1:16) Describes a father of lights, who are these lights?
Isaiah 14:12-14) Describes Lucifer being near a congregation (mowed) of people well before earth was created. Who are these people?
Isaiah.40:21) Raises a question as to why men had not understood something from a time called the foundation earth. So they must have been around at that time?
(Job.26 4) / (Job 33:4) / (Genesis2:7) / (Isaiah.42:5) Describe a spirit already there and God breathing out/sending forth this existing spirit. Whe ere these spirits created?
(Zechariah 12:1) ‘formeth’ (yatsar) is used like a potter forms clay and not created. Form/Fashion/Frame hints that, at least, the constituents already existed.
(Proverbs 8:21-30,) Describes a time before the earth ( when a spirit lived in an ‘habitable part’ of ‘His earth’ (God Himself?) and was with the (other) sons of men delighting God in the process. Who are these sons of men?
(Psalm 139:15) Appears to describes us as being ‘wrought’ (existing materials shaped) a different process from being ex-nihilo created and in a location that may tie with ‘Earth’ in Proverbs 8. Please explain this term?
You asked how I would characterize God's treatment of those he doesn't predestine to salvation, and I said that I'd characterize his treatment of them as very loving and caring—which should be easy to see when you consider that what they deserve is immediate judgment. And yet they live long lives chasing their every sinful desire in full rebellion against him. Their life, their health, their families, their wealth, all things from God which they don't deserve, and he withholds the judgment they do deserve
Good answer that, but you have sort of circumvented my question, which was more specific, so let me phrase it differently. We know God is full of grace and mercy Psa 145 9-9.
I am using mercy to mean not get wht you deserve and grace getting something you do not,
How much grace has God given those who He does not predestine to salvation compared to those he does? God changes not.

1. Much more grace
2. a bit more grace
3. neutral the same to both
4 a bit less grace
5. much less grace
 
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jameslouise

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For my part, I am of the opinion that neither the determinist aspects of Calvinism or the non-determinist aspects of most (possibly all) Patristic theology and Arminianism can be proven from Scripture.

Free Will can be proven or disproven from Scripture.
I believe, i can and scripture does completely refute the reformed theology core tenets, especially the freewill bit I am just holding back on it I am just taking softening body shots before the final knockout blow.
 
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