Is Calvinism a false denomination?

[K Watt]

I’m not evasive. I’m trying to get clarity of your position.

Why do you think you are lukewarm, and in need of knocking?

We all need grace.

Do you think there is someone who doesn't need grace?

 

[Hammster]

We all need grace.

Do you think there is someone who doesn't need grace?

I didn’t ask about that. I asked why are you lukewarm? And why are you saying that you’ve become rich and aren’t in need of anything?

 

[BBAS 64]

No, grace is an act of God.

Salvation requires cooperation.

Good Day, K Watt

Yes we agree! Grace is an act of God it can not be merited, nor demanded.

Augustine notes what we know: https://ccel.org/ccel/s/schaff/npnf105/cache/npnf105.pdf


"We know that the grace of God is given neither to children nor to adults according to our deserts.We know that it is given to adults for each several act. We know that it is not given to all men; and to those to whom it is given, it is not only not given according to the merits of works, but it is not even given to them according to the merits of their will; and this is especially apparent in children. We know that to those to whom it is given, it is given by the gratuitous mercy of God. We know that to those to whom it is not given, it is not given by the just judgment of God"

Really is the Lords hand to short to Save?
Can the Lord set about a determined purpose to save some one and fail?

IN Him,

Bill

 

[K Watt]

I didn’t ask about that. I asked why are you lukewarm? And why are you saying that you’ve become rich and aren’t in need of anything?

Did I say that?

It appears you can't support your dogma. Whenever you are confronted with scriptural proof that you are mistaken you change the subject.

 

[Hammster]

Did I say that?

It appears you can't support your dogma. Whenever you are confronted with scriptural proof that you are mistaken you change the subject.

You said the “we” was you, me and everyone, in regards to the door knocking. So that would also apply to being lukewarm as well, if you are to be consistent.

 

[K Watt]

Good Day, K Watt

Yes we agree! Grace is an act of God it can not be merited, nor demanded.

Augustine notes what we know: https://ccel.org/ccel/s/schaff/npnf105/cache/npnf105.pdf


"We know that the grace of God is given neither to children nor to adults according to our deserts.We know that it is given to adults for each several act. We know that it is not given to all men; and to those to whom it is given, it is not only not given according to the merits of works, but it is not even given to them according to the merits of their will; and this is especially apparent in children. We know that to those to whom it is given, it is given by the gratuitous mercy of God. We know that to those to whom it is not given, it is not given by the just judgment of God"

Really is the Lords hand to short to Save?
Can the Lord set about a determined purpose to save some one and fail?

IN Him,

Bill

God's grace is given to every human being. Jesus died for the whole world. If you deny this, then you are in essence turning God into a sadistic monster.

Fortunately, that is not the truth:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2:4
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

 

[K Watt]

You said the “we” was you, me and everyone, in regards to the door knocking. So that would also apply to being lukewarm as well, if you are to be consistent.

No, ANYONE means ANYONE.

See the post above this for a larger list.

 

[Hammster]

No, ANYONE means ANYONE.

See the post above this for a larger list.

Of course. So let’s back up a little and look at your proof text.


“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
— Revelation 3:14-22

So if “we” applies to “Behold I stand at the door and knock”, it would equally apply to “So because you are lukewarm.”

So I’m asking why are you lukewarm?

 

[Hammster]

God's grace is given to every human being. Jesus died for the whole world. If you deny this, then you are in essence turning God into a sadistic monster.

Fortunately, that is not the truth:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2:4
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.


Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;

A carpet bomb of 10 verses, and not a single one with context. I guess you expect us to do all of the work.

 

[K Watt]

Of course. So let’s back up a little and look at your proof text.


“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
— Revelation 3:14-22

So if “we” applies to “Behold I stand at the door and knock”, it would equally apply to “So because you are lukewarm.”

So I’m asking why are you lukewarm?

The conditions of these people have nothing to do with Jesus's statement.

He says if ANYONE, not if ONE OF YOU.

It is a universal promise.

Like all the other verses I posted, you seem intent on ignoring what the bible says in preference to your dogma.

 

[K Watt]

A carpet bomb of 10 verses, and not a single one with context. I guess you expect us to do all of the work.

Context for you seems to mean a loophole through which your dogma can be inserted. There is nothing vague or confusing about these passages.

If you don't believe they mean what the words say, please explain why.

 

[Hammster]

The conditions of these people have nothing to do with Jesus's statement.

He says if ANYONE, not if ONE OF YOU.

It is a universal promise.

Like all the other verses I posted, you seem intent on ignoring what the bible says in preference to your dogma.

Why isn’t context important? This is all to the same church, correct?

 

[Hammster]

Context for you seems to mean a loophole through which your dogma can be inserted. There is nothing vague or confusing about these passages.

If you don't believe they mean what the words say, please explain why.

If they mean what you say (you are making the argument here), then post the context for any one of them and explain what’s being said. I’ll be happy to reply.

 

[K Watt]

Why isn’t context important? This is all to the same church, correct?

Context is important.

However, the context you placed on Rev 3:20 had no bearing on the meaning of the verse I posted.

You are grasping at straws trying to negate what the bible actually says.

 

[K Watt]

If they mean what you say (you are making the argument here), then post the context for any one of them and explain what’s being said. I’ll be happy to reply.

They mean what they say and you don't like it.

If you believe they mean something other than what they say, you'll have to deal with that yourself. The passages are clear.

 

[Hammster]

Context is important.

However, the context you placed on Rev 3:20 had no bearing on the meaning of the verse I posted.

You are grasping at straws trying to negate what the bible actually says.

What context is that? I posted the entire message to that church. If one part is relevant, then it’s all relevant.

 

[K Watt]

Why isn’t context important? This is all to the same church, correct?

If I am talking to you, and I say ANYONE can get a free cheeseburger today at McDonalds, that doesn't mean it just applies to you.

The fact that Jesus was addressing one Church doesn't change the fact that he said ANYONE. That's universal. We both know what ANYONE means.

 

[Hammster]

They mean what they say and you don't like it.

If you believe they mean something other than what they say, you'll have to deal with that yourself. The passages are clear.

I love what they say. I just don’t like what I suppose you assume that they say. Unfortunately, you won’t post context and make an argument, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[Hammster]

If I am talking to you, and I say ANYONE can get a free cheeseburger today at McDonalds, that doesn't mean it just applies to you.

The fact that Jesus was addressing one Church doesn't change the fact that he said ANYONE. That's universal. We both know what ANYONE means.

If I say I’m talking to only folks wearing a red shirt, and then say any of them can get a free burger, then it’s only for those wearing a red shirt.

 

[K Watt]

I love what they say. I just don’t like what I suppose you assume that they say. Unfortunately, you won’t post context and make an argument, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

You want "context" to negate what they say because these passages and many others expose your dogma as mistaken.