Is Belief the Power?

[Lucubratus]

sorry about that, my browser just screwed up somehow and double posted me.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Heathen Dawn, are you saying then, that these Gods and Godesses are simultaneously facets of the One God whom we cannot comprehend and individual sentient identities?

Yes. They’re like radio stations on a single radio wave range. Just as radio stations are real and separate, so too are the Gods and Goddesses real and separate individuals.

So these Gods & Goddesses (for brevity's sake, from here on I will refer to them all as Gods) are formless and do not teach humankind.

They’re formless in essence, but when they appear to mankind, when they teach mankind their Mysteries, they appear in a form comprehensible to them.

Humans assigned them names and created mythologies around them, which included their relationships to each other?

I don’t know about the names, but the mythologies are not human inventions. The mythologies are, as I said, allegorical records of the experiences people have had with the Gods.

This sounds as though we define them, their relationships, their names, their forms, etc. Almost as though we have tremendous power over them.

Well, we don’t. The names and forms we assign them are only aids for worship, much like statues and icons (visual aids).

 

[Spaise]

Their not Gods if they are not beyond meddling in the affairs of creatures below them.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

whose standard is that. While it's fine to voice your personal opinion, you shouldn't present it as fact unless it is so.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Their not Gods if they are not beyond meddling in the affairs of creatures below them.

What?! So Deism is the only acceptable definition of godhood? Where did you get that silly idea from? :o

 

[Shekinahs]

True enough. I'm fascinated at the thought of a "Christian Occultist."
Golden Dawn, Dion Fortune?

Christian Occultist have been around for centuries. Occultism is not a religion but a philosophy and magickal practice. A lot of the ideas and symbolism come from religions but occultists look at the symoblism and mysticism of religion verses the faith and worship of religion. I do both.

Yes Christians were members of the GD.

Dion Fortune was a member of the GD then started her own order. That's all I know about Dion at this point.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

HD, on what do you base the beliefs regarding the Gods which you have outlined in this thread? Personal revelation, deductive reasoning, an existing tradition, books from Llewellyn () ?

 

[Heathen Dawn]

HD, on what do you base the beliefs regarding the Gods which you have outlined in this thread? Personal revelation, deductive reasoning, an existing tradition, books from Llewellyn () ?

Deductive reasoning mostly.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Christian Occultist have been around for centuries. Occultism is not a religion but a philosophy and magickal practice. A lot of the ideas and symbolism come from religions but occultists look at the symoblism and mysticism of religion verses the faith and worship of religion. I do both.

Yes Christians were members of the GD.

Dion Fortune was a member of the GD then started her own order. That's all I know about Dion at this point.

So what makes you an occultist? Your beliefs or your practices, or both? If practices, what are those practices?

 

[Shekinahs]

So what makes you an occultist? Your beliefs or your practices, or both? If practices, what are those practices?

The philsophies I study and learn from. And the application of these ideas to my every day life. Occult means "not revealed; not easily apprehended or understood; hidden from view; secret; mysterious". And someone who studies and applies such knowledge is known as an occultist.

The only practices I have so far are meditation and rituals. The rituals I perform help my mind to focus on the techniques for better personal power. To have more internal discipline and to awaken and strenghten my Will.

Christianity works with my occultism in that it gives me the guidelines for the direction of my Will.

 

[Spaise]

Every human description of God seems as evidence against God.

an omnipotent being that can't get passed meddling in the affairs of creatures below him, a god thats not past emotions of anger, frustration, and aggression, a god that knows everything yet didn't know his religion would only cause more problems, a god that only proves his being through miracles to the people that don't need convincing, a god that gives a history in a book which is contradicted by logic, commonsense, and concrete evidence, a god that knows if he showed himself right now people still wouldn't believe, a god that wants us to believe in him yet can't show himself to everyone, a god that gives a beautiful gift in the mind but wishes us to refrain from using it, a god that changes his mind every century.

I can't understand how people know this but continue to believe a true ' God ' would allow any of this. Is it hard to believe that there is a God but, he/she has not given any human the gift of knowing him or her outside of spirit.

I think when we speak of your 'gods' we should refrain from using the word 'god', i think we should say creator. That could be anything and anything could fit underneath that. Our belief of what a 'god' is does not make sense.

 

[Lucubratus]

Spaise - I can't reply to all of your post but the part about a god that only proves his being through miracles to the people that don't need convincing is not quite true -- I heard a lot of stories, some in books and some in real life of people who didn't believe in God and had some kind of experience where it was basically *boom* and they changed their mind. Then some who were believers and then turned away and had an experience.
I also think he shows himself but many people don't actually realize what it is they're seeing ;-)
I also think he wants us to use our mind and its gifts.

I can see where you can't understand the rationale of how people believe in this fashion and I feel it's all on a sort of 'case by case' basis. I've had some personal tangible experiences and have seen some things both with my physical eye and my (what word can I use?) third eye? The "psychic" eye.

There's just so many stories but the problem could be anyone who starts talking about that is labeled a schizophrenic or suffering from an illusion brought upon by stress or they were just using their own mind to get through something, etc.

I'd wonder if you had a personal experience like this - would you think it was just hoodoo or a Creator's intervention.

A two year old gets trapped inside a sofa sleeper. You know how heavy those can get, right? The only person around to hear the child yelling for help is the mother. The mother is a petite woman 5'5 around 110 pounds and she's trying to figure out a way to get her kid out before she suffocates. Adrenaline can get anybody to lift heavy objects, true - but the kid was stuck where she couldn't crawl out while the Mom lifted the sofa, and the kid was too far back for the Mom to lift the sofa and with one hand, pull the kid out. The only plausible way was for someone to lift the sofa while a second person had to squirm under it and get the kid out. Trying to just lift the soda and set it down on the side would have crushed the kid; trying to pull it out as a sleeper would have caused more harm.

As the Mom is realizing this is the only way yet there is no one within ear shot to come for help to lift the sofa and the voice of the kid is getting weaker, the Mom calls out for the "Creator" ;-) for help.

Somehow the sofa lifts itself evenly on both sides - like two people are lifting it, so the Mom can squeeze her arm down there and pull her kid out that was wedged in the middle.

What would you think in that case?

True story.
I was the kid.

 

[Spaise]

I don't like labeling the unexplained as miracles.

I have even heard stories where a guy lifted a truck off of pure adrenaline, soldiers who have taken shots to the chest only to keep on trucking.

I don't see this as a miracle, just inexplainable for the present moment.
People used to think eclipses were signs from their gods, we know better now don't we?

Why do you need miracles anyway? To prove something you are having trouble believing in. If you wanted to believe something well enough your mind could convince you, its called a hallucination. There are people out there who will swear to you they are Jesus Christ. Are they? Could be, you won't believe them in less they show some kind of miracle.

If you truly believe in something you won't need a miracle to solidify it in your mind. Miracles are for people who have doubts. Thats why people who don't believe, don't see them as miracles.

If it was truly God would there be any doubts?

Besides, if God showed specific people miracles it would show God played favorites. I wouldn't worship a God that held anyother human being/s higher than another. If he/she deserves to be set on the right path, why don't i?

 

[Hiero_Warship]

That's an excellent story, Lucubratus. I'm glad that you were saved from that situation!
So, to dovetail the thread back into the point of the op:

Do you believe that similar things can and do happen to Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, etc?
I believe so, and have had some experiences similar to yours. I also know others who belong to these diferent faiths who have also had miraculous things happen to them.
That is why I am starting to believe that faith is a tool which can work in our lives depending on how we use it.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

I don't see this as a miracle, just inexplainable for the present moment.

I think that's an acceptable definition for the woprd "miracle."

People used to think eclipses were signs from their gods, we know better now don't we?

The fact that we understand the science and physics of an eclipse does not preclude the incident itself from being a "sign from God."

Besides, if God showed specific people miracles it would show God played favorites. I wouldn't worship a God that held anyother human being/s higher than another. If he/she deserves to be set on the right path, why don't i?

Thank you - that's exactly my point!!
Deity manifests to people of every faith, nationality, etc. Every faith!!!

All belief systems, even atheism, are comparable to faith. Every one gets miracles, it's just a matter of how we interpret them:
If you are Christian, Jesus has healed you; if you are Hindu, perhaps Ganesha removed the obstacles; if you are Wiccan, the Goddess may have healed you.
And if you're an atheist, maybe you had a really lucky day.

Just my theory, and it's still in Beta testing!

 

[Lucubratus]

Spaise I was replying to your question in the sense that if you saw how a person who was a believer looked at it, then maybe you'd "understand" as you said you couldn't understand how someone could when it was explained by science or a hallucination, etc.
I always try to understand how someone could believe or not believe in something *shrugs* putting yourself in that person's position - or trying to, tends to cut down on hostility ;-)
Aside from that situation I had as a kid which I scarcely recall - I never really had any doubts and to my recollection - I don't recall asking God for a miracle to prove to myself he was there. I suppose I kind of took God for granted growing up - never gave it much thought, just was the way I was raised I guess but some "unexplained" experiences I've had that had nothing to do with a miracle scenerio just pretty much cemented it into my mind. I've heard the story about the guy lifting a truck too - and the one about the old man who lifted a backhoe high enough to let the man trapped under it slide out. Those kind of experiences are easy enough to contrbibute to adrenaline.
I won't go further into it since you don't seem to want to understand anyway, no offense - no one's trying to convert you, just trying to explain their view so you'd understand as I happen to understand how an atheist can NOT believe. Especially if they grew up in a religious way and changed their mind. ;-)With some zealots I've known, I don't blame 'em

 

[Lucubratus]

That's an excellent story, Lucubratus. I'm glad that you were saved from that situation!
So, to dovetail the thread back into the point of the op:

Do you believe that similar things can and do happen to Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, etc?
I believe so, and have had some experiences similar to yours. I also know others who belong to these diferent faiths who have also had miraculous things happen to them.
That is why I am starting to believe that faith is a tool which can work in our lives depending on how we use it.

Thanks, Heiro - I don't remember too much of that situation, anyway though my Mom sure did. lol


Yeah I think similar things can and do happen to the above mentioned people.
I also think our mind has a tremendous amount of power. When I was a kid I used to try to move an object with my mind. when it wasn't working, I thought it was probably because the object was too heavy so I tried a peanut and that still didn't work. heehee.
But if I try hard enough, I can read people's minds

 

[Spaise]

Miracle- an extraordinary occurance that is ascribed to a divine or supernatural cause.

The people who see these miracles want to see them. They are beyond looking at the situation with logic and reason. Miracles taking place in different religions seems to support the idea that no religion is correct.

As for luck, i don't believe in it. Every hour, every minute, every second is preparing the universe for another experience. There is nothing we can do to alter that happening, nothing we can do to avoid it.

If your 'miracle' was clearly explained to you in a scientific matter, would you belive it?

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Deity manifests to people of every faith, nationality, etc. Every faith!!!

Indeed. This is in contrast to some who say Deity manifests only to them. Then they have no escape but to brand the others’ experiences as false, counterfeit, demonic. That’s the main disadvantage of exclusivist religion, you can’t avoid being uncharitable towards others and their sacred things.

One truth, many ways.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Spaise

I have not written in these threads in a few weeks, but i feel this could be the most important, truly explaining why i hate religion.

I'd have to agree with you the more religions that i have encountered have served as more of a reason to discontinue my belief in religion.

Just throw the baby out with the bath water. Although I too hate religion, I see the culprit behind it, and you do not. It is not the religion that is the actual problem as it is the opposition to God's word, Satan. He uses religion as a vehicle to keep people blind to God, by disguising the religion as a substitute for fellowship with God. So, the religious person thinks that he/she is in tune with the true god, whereas in reality, he/she is not. Christ explained that in His teachings, and I know it to be true in my walk with God. God intends us to have a direct fellowship with Him, and that is through Christ.

Men are ignorant and gullible. They refuse to stand alone and are easily controlled.

That goes for you too. You are controlled by the the spirit of this earth that tells you that Christ is not your saviour. That you can philosophize and explain God absolutely, based upon you experiences and reality.

The true nature of a religion is in its control of their followers. The most powerful men to walk the Earth were the religious zealots. This is a fact, theres no denying that.

Only if it were that simple. Some people misuse things, thus turning people off from it. I like your oversimplification.

Why do you think that is? You scare a man, make him fear his own soul, fear his own happiness, tell him what he feels is nothing if it does not benefit humankind tell him to live for others, if he does wish for personal happiness, tell him he is selfish and he will be punished in the afterlife, the only thing anyone can actually wish for. You tell him what he thinks and does is wrong because nobody else does it. You take away his individuality, and turn him into an easily controlled robot.If he doesn't conform, he will be destroyed. Not physically but mentally. He'll have no friends, people will scorn him all because someone tells them he is evil. Religion looks at free thougt, originality, uniqueness, and laughs at it. It persecutes anyone with enough courage and balls to stand alone with what they believe to be true.

I use christianity as an example because it is the main religion of this country. At this very moment the christians are gathering within this country, with one of their own in the office, movies pulling them together against a false evil they can all relate to, another religion destroying their bond with humankind. No matter how many have died for the freedom of this country Christians are willing to steal the basic liberties of another human because their preacher tells them to. None will say to themselves that we are all human and that they do not have a monopoly on any way of living. Christians are brought together to fight my freedom of being able to turn on the tv and watch what i wish all because they can not trust themselves to not watch something they believe is evil. Christians refuse to see that not everyone is fine and dandy with being a follower, or that people find their happpiness in something they wish not to.

That is definitely your view. I am glad that I am not trapped by that type of thought.

A true sin is robbing someone of their happiness to make yourself happy.

Only if you knew the true meaning of sin.

What makes me laugh in a frustated sorrowness is that it is plainly obvious that God has nothing to do with any human religion. Look at the religious leaders.

That is 100% true, but we have different understandings of this.

The evangelicals that live as fat cats, why they disobey every law they preach for man to obey.

In many cases, this is true, but there are some who are actually called by God to preach. Unfortunately, so many people appoint themselves to offices that God did not call them to sit in.

The priest that molest children.

The monks that are forced to give up their humanity and socialness.

The preachers who drive Navigators to work, buy their kids everything, and cheat on thier wives.

The ayatollahs that claim the only way to go to heaven is to throw away what god gave to you in order to take from another innocent human being.

The religious leaders that tell women that their only goal in life should be to be subservient to men, Hey! pleasure for a woman is a sin, so hand over that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

Some of your analogies have some truth in them, but are not totally accurate. There is a difference between those who misteach and those who are ignorant. God never asked us to give up everything or to keep everything. He has a system by which all of us are responsible and accountable to Him according to our faith in His inspired word, Bible.

These leaders are men, men like you and me with their own goals in mind.

That does not include those who are truly following God. God is not here to take away us having a good time. He just wants us to recognize Him and His authority over us. Our selfish nature, due to sin, tells us that we are our own authority, and that what we do is right - not God's way.

I don't know what i hate more the religion and it's leaders or the blind sheep that follow.

The poor who give to the church that claims a monopoly on their souls, while their children suffer.

Those that know every human has a basic right to freedom but are cowards and are afraid of what their peers will think of them.

The ignorant that take everything they are taught and question not a ounce of it.

The pitiful that no matter all the evidence logical thought or reason given to discredit certain aspects of their religion they cannot bring their puny minds to go against their religion. Not realizing that any true God could understand their need for truth and could understand why any human could choose not to be associated with religion.

The idiots that follow the studpidest belief in doctrines. I don't even see a reason to this, for me this incoprehensible.[/qutoe]

Your true enemy is Satan. That you will not see until the light of God reaches you and you are humble enough to allow God to guide and to teach you. Yes, all of those things that you have mentioned above involve a bit of ignorance on both sides as well as an abuse of religion.

I think i know what i hate the most. People who are afraid to act without anothers approval. The people that look at another persons life and say i want that. The people that are afraid to be what they wish to be, because no one else does it. In a way i hate myself because i know that there are things that i do on account of others. Difference being i'm not denying it and try my best to disregard what others think of me.

Solution: buy yourself an island and go live on it by yourself.

It is hard but finding your true self is far worth it. What really matters is not what God thinks of us, but what we think of our selves, and whether we find peace within the universe. I'll respect anyone whose selfish enough to say that they care only for themselves.

You are dissin' The Creator. I bet He laughs at you right now.

No matter what i saythough i will be countered with every irrational, illogical thought known to man. The religious refuse to see reason. They won't stop me from thinking and believing what i wish to believe. I refuse to conform.

Has it occured to you that you are just an image of your post against others? All religious people are not even close to what you say. You are way too general to effectively comment on in any detail.