Is Belief the Power?

[Hiero_Warship]

Any maybe if more people on the side of 'religion' just dropped all that stuff and had a one on one with their God and kept their nose out of other people's lives to a certain degree, then the world wouldn't be having so many problems.

Any "spiritual" or religious practice which does not motivate one to change the world for the better is simply mental masturbation. Feel good about yourself as you walk past a homeless woman and her child?
No. If your "spirituality" is at all effective, it will help to induce compassion in you. And if your compassion doesn't grow enough to make you desire to make changes in the world, then it is useless. Neither hermits in caves nor libertines at orgies help the world if their "spiritual" practices don't move them beyond themselves.

So, a true religious or "spiritual" path should move you to "stick your nose into other people's business." Without such a desire, there would be no Child Protective Services to guard the welfare of children in their own private homes, no organizations going around to homeless people in the winter "butting in" by offering them a place to sleep, etc.

Rant off.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

I observe that, for any religion, confirming evidence can be found. Even when there isn’t any, such as regarding the Book of Mormon.

Amen, sister!
That's the point of the op.
If all religions seem to be able to demonstrate validlity not just through philosophy, but in a real phycial way, then I think that instead of discarding religion, we should investigate exactly what underlies all religions and distill that essence into a practical methodology for self-change.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Amen, sister!

Er, I’m a brother. Look at the gender sign. You’ve probably been reading my username with an R (Heather) instead of an N like so many do.

If all religions seem to be able to demonstrate validlity not just through philosophy, but in a real phycial way, then I think that instead of discarding religion, we should investigate exactly what underlies all religions and distill that essence into a practical methodology for self-change.

In a real physical way? You mean scientifically? Beware: science can only deal with the natural; the supernatural is out of its reach.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Er, I’m a brother. Look at the gender sign. You’ve probably been reading my username with an R (Heather) instead of an N like so many do.

My sincere apologies, brother! I read Heathen correctly, but I think my brain interpreted Dawn as a name. Again, I apologise!

In a real physical way? You mean scientifically? Beware: science can only deal with the natural; the supernatural is out of its reach.

That may be the case, but I am not completely convinced.
I believe that our brains can heal us. This is demonstrated by studying the recovery rates of patients who have varying outlooks - positive or negative.
If our brains can effect biological change, then we must be able to investigate the most effective way of using our brains deliberately to effect such changes at will.

I believe that religion is man's primitive way of harnessing these powers, mistakenly believing that god/dess is outside of us.
Mind you, saying that god/dess is possibly contained within our brains does not in any way negate his/her importance or reality.

I believe that religious ritual of many sorts and origins, is a powerful way, developed over the course of millennia by humanity, to affect the deepest parts of our brains.
Instead of dismissing religion, as so many seem to want to do (not saying you, HD), I believe that we can benefit from deliberate exploration of religion and ritual, to try to better understand the language our deepest selves speak. Kind of like the machine language for our brain, which until now we have had to rely upon religion as a compiler for.

Of course, the fact that religion can so powerfully affect our deepest selves has not escaped the notice of madmen and fascists who have, knowingly or unknowingly, harnessed this power for domination and repression of humanity.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

I believe that religion is man's primitive way of harnessing these powers, mistakenly believing that god/dess is outside of us.
Mind you, saying that god/dess is possibly contained within our brains does not in any way negate his/her importance or reality.

We’ll have to agree to disagree here, because I believe the Gods and Goddesses are outside us. Of course, I believe also in The God Within, the soul, a spark of the Divine which is identical with The God Without—Brahman is Atman.

 

[Hix]

Wait, your not Heather Dawn? *smacks face*

 

[Hiero_Warship]

We’ll have to agree to disagree here, because I believe the Gods and Goddesses are outside us. Of course, I believe also in The God Within, the soul, a spark of the Divine which is identical with The God Without—Brahman is Atman.

And I'm not here to "convert" you!
Just to discuss the possibilities.

Woudl you mind if I asked you some questions, just to get a better understanding of your understanding of things? There are lots of monotheists around here to question, and I feel like I have a decnet handle on their reasoning, but I'd like to get yours as well. It may well change how I deal with my own theory.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Go ahead.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Wait, your not Heather Dawn? *smacks face*

You have no idea how common this mistake is. There’s not a single board where it hasn’t happened to me.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Here goes. None of this is to trick you or bait you or to argue with you.

a. If you believe in the objective existence and reality of the Gods and Goddesses, do you also believe that Jehovah and Jesus are among the community of Gods?

b. What is your conception of why so many of the Gods of various religions/faiths have given mutually exclusive instructions to their followers?

c. Do you believe that the Gods/Goddesses exist in any sort of hierarchical relationship?

Many thanks.

 

[Heathen Dawn]

a. If you believe in the objective existence and reality of the Gods and Goddesses, do you also believe that Jehovah and Jesus are among the community of Gods?

Definitely Jehovah, as the tribal deity of the Hebrews. As for Jesus, I can make allowance for his being a demigod (if he really rose from the dead), or else he was an ordinary human being deified by his followers after death.

b. What is your conception of why so many of the Gods of various religions/faiths have given mutually exclusive instructions to their followers?

I don’t think the Gods gave instructions, I think every nation came to worship its Gods as it saw fit. Every people sees a different aspect of God. (note: I’m a soft polytheist, I believe all the Gods and Goddesses are aspect of one overarching Divinity)

c. Do you believe that the Gods/Goddesses exist in any sort of hierarchical relationship?

The various pantheons have their heads, major deities and lesser deities. For example, Jupiter is the head of the Roman pantheon, Venus is a major Goddess (one of the Dii Consentes), and Saturn is a minor God (one of the Dii Familiares).

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Definitely Jehovah, as the tribal deity of the Hebrews. As for Jesus, I can make allowance for his being a demigod (if he really rose from the dead), or else he was an ordinary human being deified by his followers after death.

Very interesting, and it has the added benefit of making sense. At least it does to me.

I don’t think the Gods gave instructions, I think every nation came to worship its Gods as it saw fit. Every people sees a different aspect of God. (note: I’m a soft polytheist, I believe all the Gods and Goddesses are aspect of one overarching Divinity)

Well, here's where I get confused, my softly polytheistic friend.
Reading it immediately raised some questions for me.
i. Who created the very first Gods?
ii. What is the purpose of the Gods' interactions with humans? Do they get anything out of it? Do we?
iii. How do we have the corpus of world mythology? Or do you believe that the Gods did gift us with that?
iv. Do the Gods desire our worship? To what end?

The various pantheons have their heads, major deities and lesser deities. For example, Jupiter is the head of the Roman pantheon, Venus is a major Goddess (one of the Dii Consentes), and Saturn is a minor God (one of the Dii Familiares).

This seems internally consistent and quite a satisfactory answer.
Muchas gracias, HD

 

[Heathen Dawn]

Well, here's where I get confused, my softly polytheistic friend.

Haha. This is in contrast to a hard polytheist, who doesn’t believe there is one overarching Divinity behind all the Gods.

i. Who created the very first Gods?

They have always existed, as energy beings. Human beings, having acknowledged them, put various forms (anthropomorphic etc) upon them.

ii. What is the purpose of the Gods' interactions with humans? Do they get anything out of it? Do we?

Worshipping the individual Gods and Goddesses is the way to worship the One God. The One is too abstract to be worshipped by most people, so He has many aspects that are closer to humans’ reach.

iii. How do we have the corpus of world mythology? Or do you believe that the Gods did gift us with that?

Mythology is the symbolic record of humans’ experiences of the Gods. It is not to be taken literally, but to be decoded spiritually, like all divine Mysteries.

iv. Do the Gods desire our worship? To what end?

They do, though of course they can survive without it. Worship of the Gods is to the end of uniting our souls (Atman) with the Source, the One God (Brahman), which is the only real way of peace (cf Augustine: our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee).

 

[Shekinahs]

I think our thoughts are the most powerful things out there. And beliefs have a huge impact on our thoughts. The mind can do amazing powerful things if we believe enough.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Heathen Dawn, are you saying then, that these Gods and Godesses are simultaneously facets of the One God whom we cannot comprehend and individual sentient identities?

So these Gods & Goddesses (for brevity's sake, from here on I will refer to them all as Gods) are formless and do not teach humankind. Humans assigned them names and created mythologies around them, which included their relationships to each other?
This sounds as though we define them, their relationships, their names, their forms, etc. Almost as though we have tremendous power over them.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

I think our thoughts are the most powerful things out there. And beliefs have a huge impact on our thoughts. The mind can do amazing powerful things if we believe enough.

True enough. I'm fascinated at the thought of a "Christian Occultist."
Golden Dawn, Dion Fortune?

 

[Lucubratus]

Any "spiritual" or religious practice which does not motivate one to change the world for the better is simply mental masturbation. Feel good about yourself as you walk past a homeless woman and her child?
No. If your "spirituality" is at all effective, it will help to induce compassion in you. And if your compassion doesn't grow enough to make you desire to make changes in the world, then it is useless. Neither hermits in caves nor libertines at orgies help the world if their "spiritual" practices don't move them beyond themselves.

So, a true religious or "spiritual" path should move you to "stick your nose into other people's business." Without such a desire, there would be no Child Protective Services to guard the welfare of children in their own private homes, no organizations going around to homeless people in the winter "butting in" by offering them a place to sleep, etc.

Rant off.

Pardon me for not clarifying what I meant by "stuff" - I meant extremists views and those who are using their religion or spirituality to control other peoples ways of thinking or their lives. And that question about the homeless woman and her child - the very nature of people make me suspicious anyway because I really have no clue if they're really in dire straits or are professional pandhandlers - it happens a lot where I live. And yeah, I've been homeless so don't jump on me for the statement I just made.


What you said about the mind though and a direct connection to a God head I agree with and for me that is spirituality. Religion in my opinion is something wildly held as being valid amongst whatever group of people belonging in that religion and that's where all the problems with extremists arise.

 

[Hiero_Warship]

Pardon me for not clarifying what I meant by "stuff" - I meant extremists views and those who are using their religion or spirituality to control other peoples ways of thinking or their lives. And that question about the homeless woman and her child - the very nature of people make me suspicious anyway because I really have no clue if they're really in dire straits or are professional pandhandlers - it happens a lot where I live. And yeah, I've been homeless so don't jump on me for the statement I just made.

Have no fear, I'm not jumping anywhere!

What you said about the mind though and a direct connection to a God head I agree with and for me that is spirituality. Religion in my opinion is something wildly held as being valid amongst whatever group of people belonging in that religion and that's where all the problems with extremists arise.

It's fine to define words for yourself, but realize that using new definitions means that you will be speaking a different language than many other people. I understand the distinction you, and others, are making with these words, but I use them in their anthropological/sociological meaning to make myself clearest to the widest audience.

 

[Spaise]

Here goes. None of this is to trick you or bait you or to argue with you.

a. If you believe in the objective existence and reality of the Gods and Goddesses, do you also believe that Jehovah and Jesus are among the community of Gods?

b. What is your conception of why so many of the Gods of various religions/faiths have given mutually exclusive instructions to their followers?

c. Do you believe that the Gods/Goddesses exist in any sort of hierarchical relationship?

Many thanks.

a. No.

b. The true creator of those instructions, the man whose mouth they were first leaked from's way of keeping his followers in line.

c. No

 

[Lucubratus]

Have no fear, I'm not jumping anywhere!


It's fine to define words for yourself, but realize that using new definitions means that you will be speaking a different language than many other people.

Glad you're not jumping anywhere and I have no fear - I just get tired of argumentitive people who do so for the sake of being argumentitive. lol

I don't quite think there are new definitions to spirituality as a word, though I think there's only one common definition for religion. This is the webster dictionary approach to what I mean (for myself, not saying it's for everybody)

of or relating to or consisting of the spirit
of or relating to supernatural being(s)

the spirit: an animated or vital principle held to give life to living organism.

That could be a deity or cosmic goo

and: immaterial intelligence or sentient part of a person.

I am in error I guess, for the definition of Spirituality because it's described as a noun instead of an adjective My bad.


This is why actually, I don't equate religion with being spiritual because religion builds up from common spiritual beliefs, is usually applied as a philosophy and that philosophy becomes a doctrine which becomes a religion. IMO.
But if you're to say that my own spiritual-ness and my own philosophy; be they plaguired from Buddhism or Tao and altered to suit my own perception and comfort IS a religion, then I can't argue that. heehee


I am also curious about this polytheism because of the 10 Commandments where it says 'no other Gods before me' yet in the same set of commandments, no graven image - which is a symbol of some kind usually associated with a deity or in the case of what happened in the bible, someone picking a cow and making it into one. I didn't think about too much before as I took the 'no other Gods before me' to sort of mean anything you dwell on too much becomes your God, yet a lot of literalists will say the Bible doesn't mince words, it's plain spoken - if I were to think in that way, then it looks to me like there's either other deities for that one commandment and then the other commandment is not to invent your own.


argh. The things that pop in my head.
By the way, I often do speak a language different from many other people, even though most of the time it's in English.