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Is Belief the Power?

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Hiero_Warship

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I have been all over the map, and it seems to me, more and more, that every religion is right... for somebody.
I mean, miracles happen for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, etc. Right?
It really seems that any religion that you believe in is true.
Perhaps people who have held more than one faith during their lives can speak to this.
What are your thoughts on this, and how do you think it can be explained? Is the power really simply within us, waiting for a suitably complex symbol-set to awaken it?
 

Bushboy2004

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I have been Buddhist, Christian, Catholic and I am now settled on Athiesm. Now, I have issues with a few religions over their ethics and morals etc. but I think it is as simple as this...

Humans are easily manipulated. Teach them a belief from birth, and the chances are they will know nothing else and believe that. What makes one religion right over another? Who knows. I chose no religion because although all have good points, all have bad points too, and all these alternate religions can't all be right, so why not just enjoy life?
 
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Arthra

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Hiero_Warship said:
I have been all over the map, and it seems to me, more and more, that every religion is right... for somebody.
I mean, miracles happen for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, etc. Right?
It really seems that any religion that you believe in is true.
Perhaps people who have held more than one faith during their lives can speak to this.
What are your thoughts on this, and how do you think it can be explained? Is the power really simply within us, waiting for a suitably complex symbol-set to awaken it?

I don't think I've seen you on this forum before Hiero and so welcome!

Yes I agree God is merciful and grants miracles and these can occur with people of all kinds of religions and beliefs... even atheists I believe can be recipients of miracles.

From my view all the great religions have a divine source... There are certainly people though who try to exploit religion to their advantage such as politicians, salesmen and terrorists and they will receive their "rewards" but religion to me is a very deep need in mankind and I believe we are truly spiritual beings.

It behooves us I think to seek God and live a life in accord with God's will for us.

How can we do this?

We can do this i think by reading Holy Scriptures and praying to God.

We can do this by recognizing Who God's Messenger is for this day... but we need to humble ourselves before God and purify our spiritual eyes and ears to begin to hear and see.

God grant that you will continue on the spiritual path and be open to the All Merciful!

- Art
 
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Spaise

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Bushboy2004 said:
I have been Buddhist, Christian, Catholic and I am now settled on Athiesm. Now, I have issues with a few religions over their ethics and morals etc. but I think it is as simple as this...

Humans are easily manipulated. Teach them a belief from birth, and the chances are they will know nothing else and believe that. What makes one religion right over another? Who knows. I chose no religion because although all have good points, all have bad points too, and all these alternate religions can't all be right, so why not just enjoy life?

I have not written in these threads in a few weeks, but i feel this could be the most important, truly explaining why i hate religion.

I'd have to agree with you the more religions that i have encountered have served as more of a reason to discontinue my belief in religion.

Men are ignorant and gullible. They refuse to stand alone and are easily controlled. The true nature of a religion is in its control of their followers. The most powerful men to walk the Earth were the religious zealots. This is a fact, theres no denying that.

Why do you think that is? You scare a man, make him fear his own soul, fear his own happiness, tell him what he feels is nothing if it does not benefit humankind tell him to live for others, if he does wish for personal happiness, tell him he is selfish and he will be punished in the afterlife, the only thing anyone can actually wish for. You tell him what he thinks and does is wrong because nobody else does it. You take away his individuality, and turn him into an easily controlled robot.If he doesn't conform, he will be destroyed. Not physically but mentally. He'll have no friends, people will scorn him all because someone tells them he is evil. Religion looks at free thougt, originality, uniqueness, and laughs at it. It persecutes anyone with enough courage and balls to stand alone with what they believe to be true.

I use christianity as an example because it is the main religion of this country. At this very moment the christians are gathering within this country, with one of their own in the office, movies pulling them together against a false evil they can all relate to, another religion destroying their bond with humankind. No matter how many have died for the freedom of this country Christians are willing to steal the basic liberties of another human because their preacher tells them to. None will say to themselves that we are all human and that they do not have a monopoly on any way of living. Christians are brought together to fight my freedom of being able to turn on the tv and watch what i wish all because they can not trust themselves to not watch something they believe is evil. Christians refuse to see that not everyone is fine and dandy with being a follower, or that people find their happpiness in something they wish not to.

A true sin is robbing someone of their happiness to make yourself happy.

As i said, i don't believe in any religion. The worst in my eyes is islam. Every fiber in their body's screams at their inhumane treatments of women, their inability to settle thousand year old feuds, break tradition and come up with their own intelligent thoughts, come to the knowledge that no god would ask for his most precious gift to humans to destroy another man woman and sadly child.

What makes me laugh in a frustated sorrowness is that it is plainly obvious that God has nothing to do with any human religion. Look at the religious leaders.

The evangelicals that live as fat cats, why they disobey every law they preach for man to obey.

The priest that molest children.

The monks that are forced to give up their humanity and socialness.

The preachers who drive Navigators to work, buy their kids everything, and cheat on thier wives.

The ayatollahs that claim the only way to go to heaven is to throw away what god gave to you in order to take from another innocent human being.

The religious leaders that tell women that their only goal in life should be to be subservient to men, Hey! pleasure for a woman is a sin, so hand over that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

These leaders are men, men like you and me with their own goals in mind.

I don't know what i hate more the religion and it's leaders or the blind sheep that follow.

The poor who give to the church that claims a monopoly on their souls, while their children suffer.

Those that know every human has a basic right to freedom but are cowards and are afraid of what their peers will think of them.

The ignorant that take everything they are taught and question not a ounce of it.

The pitiful that no matter all the evidence logical thought or reason given to discredit certain aspects of their religion they cannot bring their puny minds to go against their religion. Not realizing that any true God could understand their need for truth and could understand why any human could choose not to be associated with religion.

The idiots that follow the studpidest belief in doctrines. I don't even see a reason to this, for me this incoprehensible.

I think i know what i hate the most. People who are afraid to act without anothers approval. The people that look at another persons life and say i want that. The people that are afraid to be what they wish to be, because no one else does it. In a way i hate myself because i know that there are things that i do on account of others. Difference being i'm not denying it and try my best to disregard what others think of me.

It is hard but finding your true self is far worth it. What really matters is not what God thinks of us, but what we think of our selves, and whether we find peace within the universe. I'll respect anyone whose selfish enough to say that they care only for themselves.

No matter what i saythough i will be countered with every irrational, illogical thought known to man. The religious refuse to see reason. They won't stop me from thinking and believing what i wish to believe. I refuse to conform.
 
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Mylinkay Asdara

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Spaise, you say that the greatest sin is to rob someone of their happiness to provide your own. My religion makes me happy. It brings me joy. (I'm a pagan and we don't have sin or hell so that might have something to do with it) So, you telling me that all religions are bs is just a little nick in my happiness. Not all people blindly follow a religion. Some of us actually think it out and find a philosophy that works with our lives to improve them.
 
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SkyAboveYou

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Bushboy2004 said:
I have been Buddhist, Christian, Catholic and I am now settled on Athiesm. Now, I have issues with a few religions over their ethics and morals etc. but I think it is as simple as this...

Humans are easily manipulated. Teach them a belief from birth, and the chances are they will know nothing else and believe that. What makes one religion right over another? Who knows. I chose no religion because although all have good points, all have bad points too, and all these alternate religions can't all be right, so why not just enjoy life?

Why not JUST enjoy life?! Simply, cuz we are here 4 a purpose...
This life is but a mere second compared to the Hereafter...
God brought us here to test us...and see who are those who will believe in Him and worship Him and follow the guidance He sent down to us via blessed Prophets and Messengers and who are those who will be too proud...

If you are still searching my friend, then I recommend u discover Islam...
Since its the natural religion every new born baby comes to this life with...
very simple and straight forward....Obey God , Worship God without any equal or partner, Believe in His Prophets and Messengers....Submit your will to His...and along with that ENJOY your life....but now without you losing the NEXT....
 
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Hiero_Warship

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Ah, a true blessing here on earth is good conversation. That's one reason I registered here. Thanks for the welcome.
Some good points being made, and heartfelt. Good.

Part of what I have been wondering is related to a hypothesis put forth by Chaos Magick - that belief itself is what empowers your faith.
I'd like to look at this with a positive spin rather than a negative one, because I believe there is power and strength and wholeness to be reclaimed here.

Consider the brain as a box full of mystery - an organ which has the power to alter our physical state. We know this for many reasons - stress gives us ulcers, a positive outlook helps us heal more quickly, the fact of psychosomatic illnesses. In fact - psychosomatic what a great word.
If we know this about the brain, we can conjecture that we can each better learn to harness this organ to benefit ourselves and others.

Most people tap into a small percentage of this power by falling haphazardly into a religion which may or may not effectively harness their brain. But if we accept religion as a set of beliefs and tools which we may use intentionally rather than haphazardly...
Well, that's a whole different ballgame, isn't it?

Consider religion as an operating system for our brain. We can accept that with no mumbo-jumbo and no intermediaries. Science allows us this.
Allowing for this, we can choose our operating system deliberately. Intentionally creating states of rapture which release the endorphins which help us to heal. Purposely choosing deities in order to model their behaviours.
 
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Spaise said:
As i said, i don't believe in any religion. The worst in my eyes is islam. Every fiber in their body's screams at their inhumane treatments of women, their inability to settle thousand year old feuds, break tradition and come up with their own intelligent thoughts, come to the knowledge that no god would ask for his most precious gift to humans to destroy another man woman and sadly child.

Spaise,

You know why u r having so much trouble with religions?!

Thats cuz you are viewing them from the actions of their followers.

I'll give you an example and relate it to Islam, since its my faith...

We all know there is a difference between a man and a father.
A man who has children.
He is a father but father is a responsibility.
If a man does not fulfill those responsibilities, he is not necessarily a good father.

Similarly

Islam is a rule and an order.
If a Muslim does not fulfill these rules and orders he is not a good Muslim.
So you cannot compare Islam by Muslims.

I hope this helps u in having a better understanding of religion..

tc

Sky
 
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Spaise

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SkyAboveYou said:


Spaise,

You know why u r having so much trouble with religions?!

Thats cuz you are viewing them from the actions of their followers.

I'll give you an example and relate it to Islam, since its my faith...

We all know there is a difference between a man and a father.
A man who has children.
He is a father but father is a responsibility.
If a man does not fulfill those responsibilities, he is not necessarily a good father.

Similarly

Islam is a rule and an order.
If a Muslim does not fulfill these rules and orders he is not a good Muslim.
So you cannot compare Islam by Muslims.

I hope this helps u in having a better understanding of religion..

tc

Sky

How else should i look it as? You don't look at a parent by what their values and beliefs are but how they raise their kids. Action is the only important thing. Anything goes as far as the people take it.

As for pagan religions. Ask yourself this. What do i receive from this religion? Do i need a religion to tell me this?

I don't need a religion to tell me right from wrong, or where and what i should find happiness in. I don't need to waste time praying to spirits i don't know exist when there are things of more importance to do in reality.
 
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Spaise

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Who turned it into a debate on atheism and theism.

I think you misinterpreted everyone of my statements. Belief is not the power of religion, weakness is.I don't need someone to tell me how to live my life, or set the standards for me, i am what i make of myself. I don't pray to make myself feel good. I don't need hippocrites in a pulpit to tell me their opinion is more important than mine.

There will always be religion as long as humanity stays blind to their individual strength. And man will always be controlled as long as they have the need to find strength from anywhere than within.

Every powerful person thats walked this Earth has seen it and will continue to see it, religion is the key to control.
 
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Arthra

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Spaise said:
I think i know what i hate the most. People who are afraid to act without anothers approval. The people that look at another persons life and say i want that. The people that are afraid to be what they wish to be, because no one else does it. In a way i hate myself because i know that there are things that i do on account of others. Difference being i'm not denying it and try my best to disregard what others think of me.

It is hard but finding your true self is far worth it. What really matters is not what God thinks of us, but what we think of our selves, and whether we find peace within the universe. I'll respect anyone whose selfish enough to say that they care only for themselves.

I think it's good you're expressing yourself... maybe some of the anger is lessened a bit by that..

It's sad to me though that you feel you should act without considering other people and that you place a value on "...anyone whose selfish enough to say that they care only for themselves."

I can relate to not wanting to conform but in pulling the opposite way there could be a kind of negative mirror effect and you might make yourself more miserable.

Be kind!

- Art
 
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Lucubratus

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I'm a Christian actually - but I always maintained that to mean "believes in Christ" and just about all of Spaise's reasons pertaining to religion is exactly the reason why I don't go to church and why I don't associate too much with people who are zealous in their religion. I just don't equate religion with spirituality period. Any maybe if more people on the side of 'religion' just dropped all that stuff and had a one on one with their God and kept their nose out of other people's lives to a certain degree, then the world wouldn't be having so many problems. Since from what I have seen of the many religions I've researched or read on - no matter which God it was, one of the primary things in that religion was to be at peace with yourself and with other people. So religions everywhere are flawed in that regard. There's always the gems that stand out and actually mind their own business, but we're just sort of talking about the negative aspects in general since a case by case basis isn't always in the daily paper. lol
One of my friend's is a Catholic, that suits her comfort level in regards to her mind and soul/spirit. Another friend and her husband are Seventh Day adventists, it suits them. Yet another friend sort of blends Christ's teachings and reading the bible with some Wiccan philophies and has casted spells. It's all a potpourri of people from my own life. I've also dabbled in what is termed as occult and the reason why I am still friends with some people that many zealout Christians on here would slam me for - is because they don't try to cram their belief system down my throat. I extend the same courtesy. It seems to be human nature that people don't like having things crammed down their throat and I think the crammers should realize that people have stages in their life and at many points, some aren't ready for the things they think they should know and the crammer ought to just respect the fact that people grow into or out of things in their own time. That can be due to God's lessons and God having his own plan for that person; or to the atheist it can be due to his or her own human growth and development. We all have stages in life even through adulthood.

and I also think a lot of soul-mind-spiritual prowess as it pertains to no religion and the use of miracles or actions that would seem supernatural, CAN be scientifically explained to some degree. In other degrees not explainable because no one has the means or tools yet, and maybe never will - to explain those things.

Religion aside, I think the mind/soul has a tremendous amount of power - like those cliche things you see in movies, like telepathic prowess or astrally projecting yourself into dreams to hurt somebody. People just want to put a label on it or you and think that you're nuts just because it hasn't been explained to their rationale.

Either that or they want to use religion as the excuse to say it's a power from Satan and you shouldn't try to lift an object with your mind at all because its from Satan. Some people don't seem to think that it could come from God. All things are possible with the Lord is a famous quote - and then there's also Jesus sort of chastizing his Disciples for having 'little faith' when they couldn't excise a demon.
I think the gifts are all there and whatever alignment you pick is what makes it positive or negative.

Don't ask me about neutrality because I'm not sure. I don't sit on the fence very often though there's a huge gray space in the matters of the world itself open to interpretation.
 
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Hiero_Warship

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Spaise said:
Every powerful person thats walked this Earth has seen it and will continue to see it, religion is the key to control.
Exactly. And why should I throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of using religion as a means of effecting change in myself, according to my principles and directing my own growth and healing?
If belief itself is a tool which religion allows us to use for good or ill, why not make use of it for ourselves? That's quite different, I think, than listening to someone in a pulpit tell us what we should do and how we should live.

I believe you may be misinterpreting my premise. If belief is a tool which allows us to effect change in ourselves, then religion is freed from sectarianism and authoritarianism.

My whole premise is that the Christian god works miracles, the Jewish god works miracles, the Muslim god works miracles, the Hindu gods work miracles, etc. This seems to me to indicate that a principle is at work here which is independant of religion itself.

It may well be that our own brains contain a "god center." It's possible that, in a very real sense, god lives in our brains. And it seems likely that the way we harness this part of our brain is through religious practice. That's simply the language understood by that part of the brain which seems to operate via symbolism and ecstacy.

If we can work to better understand the most effective way to communicate with that deep part of our brain, it seems to me that we can harness a powerful force for our own development and progress.

In this way, I think that we can also use the termn psychosomatic, but without the negative connotations. Even if miraculous healings, etc. are psychosomatic, it still remains the case that the most direct way of accessing this power of our own brains to mopdify our own biology is through the language of myth and ritual.

In a way this would be reconciling science and religion.
 
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Hiero_Warship

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Arthra said:
I can relate to not wanting to conform but in pulling the opposite way there could be a kind of negative mirror effect and you might make yourself more miserable.
Precisely. The reflexive discarding of, or revulsion towards, religion can turn people away from the tool that, properly and consciously used, can be a source of tremendous health and happiness.

All this rubbish about "religion" vs. "spirituality" rubs me the wrong way. It usually simply means that the individual speaking is anti-authoritarian and sloppy in their thinking. It seems that they are doing the same thing I would be doing if refused to call a cell phone by its proper name simply because some people abuse the devices while driving or in movie theaters. Calling them "voice transmitters" or some such thing wouldn't change the nature of the thing.

Religion doesn't mean an authoritarian application of theology for repressive ends. Religion is a neutral thing which may be used productively or abused. Don't blame the thing, blame its abuser.

Redefining the word "religion" doesn't make anything better. It just muddies the water and makes communication on the topic more difficult.

Spirituality is a result of religion properly applied. It is the result of religion as well as its animating force. Religion withour spiritulaity is a dead thing, a corpse. And the application of religion without spirituality will generate no vitality.

But spirituality without religion is like junk food. It is enjoyable in the short term, and we may enjoy it for a while, and it makes us feel all warm and fuzzy, but it does not nourish us or help us to heal in times of crisis.
 
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