Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

[d taylor]

Went to the Fudge link and immediately disagreed. Whatever the Lazarus and the rich man narrative is, it is not a parable.
The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "parabole'" which literally means throw or place beside. Something unknown/not understood is explained/clarified by comparison with something known/understood.
Luke 16:19-31is not in the proper format of a parable.
For example, Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
There is no "X is like unto to Y" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable.
…..All of the unquestioned parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name; Lazarus, otherwise unknown, Abraham and Moses.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus lied. Would Jesus use a false statement to make a point?
What most folks don’t know about the rich man, he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

All of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31 considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

The main point of the article was not to address whether the account of the rich man and Lazarus was an actual historical account or a parable.

 

[Andrewn]

My vote would be that BELIEF IN the eternal lake of fire wouldn't be a stumbling block for your own personal salvation presuming that that's the only point of discrepancy between you and the Bible.

The problem is the view that the LoF is literal and that torment in it is endless / everlasting. Revelation is true but is highly symbolic. And as a human being, I cannot even begin to understand what "endless" is like: millions of years / billions of years / trillions of years in a completely static situation without change? It may be the case but it is beyond my understanding when I'm only familiar with life that changes every second.

 

[public hermit]

It's a little bit mixed, like you need to know what you're saved from I think, which is sin and the punishment for sin. But I don't necessarily think that it needs to be eternal hell to be saved, as long as you know you are a sinner, and sin has a punishment, and Christ took that punishment for you to pay for your sins.

If you don't believe in any sort of punishment, then what do you believe Christ died for? Why did Christ have to die to do it? You then start breaking down what Christ's atoning work was and you come out the other side with a different gospel, one that does not save.

As long as you can come to the conclusion that my sin, and your sin, has a punishment, that it is deserved, and Christ died, taking that punishment in your place, so that you can be forgiven and reconciled to God.. (and believing in the divinity of Christ, to know WHO paid for your sins), I think that covers the essential doctrine at least.
You do need a saving gospel, and to be saved you need to be saved FROM something.

I think this is a helpful line of thought. The gospel entails being saved from the tendency and the consequences of living contrary to the divine will for life, i.e., saved from sin and where it leads. This saving work is accomplished through the incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. This is the general framework that needs to be in place. But how we fill out the details might or might not entail eternal punishment. Let's say there is punishment, but that punishment is cathartic and restorative, then your line of thought holds, sans eternal punishment. Therefore, belief in eternal punishment is not necessary for faith in Christ.

 

[dqhall]

The main point of the article was not to address whether the account of the rich man and Lazarus was an actual historical account or a parable.

Luke’s Gospel is the only Gospel that includes text about Lazarus and the rich man.

The ancient Greeks had stories about Hades being the place where people went when they died. Hades was thought to be underground such as beyond subterranean passageways. It was a place of pleasure or pain based on what someone did when they were above ground. Tales of the underworld circulated long before the time of Christ.
The Getty Museum

The ancient Egyptians had stories of the afterlife being ruled by various gods. Paradise was reserved for those who had done good, or those who had access to secret passwords. These were included in their “Book of the Dead.” Copies of this book date from as early as 1500 BC. The pharaohs had pyramids or tombs stocked with goods for the afterlife.

 

[BPPLEE]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

I'll stick with a form of Pascal's wager. I'll live as though I fear ECT and if I'm wrong I have lost nothing. If I'm right then good thing I am saved.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

.... *yawn* Heck, I wake up every day think'n, "Is ANY of this necessary?"

 

[public hermit]

I'll stick with a form of Pascal's wager. I'll live as though I fear ECT and if I'm wrong I have lost nothing. If I'm right then good thing I am saved.

I understand that, and I don't think it's a bad wager. I assume the same world work for someone who has faith in Christ but believes hell is purgative, painful, and restorative but not eternal. They will be thrilled they are saved and don't have to go through hell.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I understand that, and I don't think it's a bad wager. I assume the same world work for someone who has faith in Christ but believes hell is purgative, painful, and restorative but not eternal. They will be thrilled they are saved and don't have to go through hell.

But what if hell is just never entering His rest? After all, that is a given in both the old and the new testament.

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’

 

[public hermit]

But what if hell is just never entering His rest? After all, that is a given in both the old and the new testament.

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’

That's a possibility but it doesn't answer the question. Is belief that some will not enter God's rest necessary for salvation?

 

[Receivedgrace]

What spirit is teaching the heart to question eternal punishment, condemnation, or spiritual death? One may not want to believe in eternal condemnation for the lost for it is truly a horrible consequence of sin but we cannot create doctrine that make it possible for souls to enter eternal life any way but through Christ.
Only when men fear eternal condemnation will they see the value of the atonement of Christ. Why diminish the great sacrifice God made to save men who deserved nothing less than eternal condemnation?
The serpent deceived Eve by leading her to question God's decree. I guess Adam was not sufficiently firm enough in his teaching of what God said.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

What would be the purpose of hell as a purgative place.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That's a possibility but it doesn't answer the question. Is belief that some will not enter God's rest necessary for salvation?

No if it's understanding what God's rest is in terms of intellect. Yes if it's understanding in the heart in hearing His voice.

 

[public hermit]

No if it's understanding what God's rest is in terms of intellect. Yes if it's understanding in the heart in hearing His voice.

Okay, I think I understand. In order to be saved, one must believe in their heart that some will not enter God's rest forever. If that's what you are saying, do you mind voting? It would be nice to get an accurate sense of how folks think about this.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Some people were crucified for crimes they did. They may have died in agony not knowing a God of salvation.

A story by John Milton called “Paradise Lost,” is responsible for some of the ideology about hell as a place of eternal torture after death. It is not Biblical.

Years ago they gave mental patients high voltage shocks (electric shock therapy). They claimed patients were being cured. The electric shocks were torture, not a medical cure. It was like hell on earth for one separated from God.

Obesity increases risk of cancer. Obesity is a sin. People prayed for health and prosperity, then indulged in gluttony. Prayer without faith is ineffective. Cancer patients might think cancer is hell. They got medical bills and their bodies were devoured by malignancy. It is easy to lose hope in such a situation, unless one knows Jesus.

Let's be clear, if someone does something worthy of punishment as an evil doer, they are deserving of that punishment and it is not "hell", it's a just reward for what crimes they have committed. Which leads us to the topic of hell. It's a place, of punishment, for those who have committed crimes against God. Jesus describes it as a place of eternal punishment and anguish, where the worm never dies. Even told a story about a rich man who was suffering in torment there.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Okay, I think I understand. In order to be saved, one must believe in their heart that some will not enter God's rest forever. If that's what you are saying, do you mind voting? It would be nice to get an accurate sense of how folks think about this.

The vote is yes or no and I gave an example of each. So I guess my vote would be not a necessity since for example one does not need to know what sanctification means to be sanctified just as one doesn't need to believe in anything but Christ died and resurrection to be saved.

 

[Hmm]

I'll stick with a form of Pascal's wager. I'll live as though I fear ECT and if I'm wrong I have lost nothing. If I'm right then good thing I am saved.

Does God want us to live in fear? Seems a waste of a life.

"I came that they may have life and have it abundantly."
John 10:10

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love."
1 John 4:18.

 

[public hermit]

The vote is yes or no and I gave an example of each. So I guess my vote would be not a necessity since for example one does not need to know what sanctification means to be sanctified just as one doesn't need to believe in anything but Christ died and resurrection to be saved.

Okay, thank you. I didn't think "other" would need to be an option. But maybe I should include it.

Edit: I don't think I can.

 

[public hermit]

What spirit is teaching the heart to question eternal punishment, condemnation, or spiritual death? One may not want to believe in eternal condemnation for the lost for it is truly a horrible consequence of sin but we cannot create doctrine that make it possible for souls to enter eternal life any way but through Christ.
Only when men fear eternal condemnation will they see the value of the atonement of Christ. Why diminish the great sacrifice God made to save men who deserved nothing less than eternal condemnation?
The serpent deceived Eve by leading her to question God's decree. I guess Adam was not sufficiently firm enough in his teaching of what God said.

Thanks for sharing. Do you mind voting? It looks like no one believes what you seem to be saying, which is deceptive like the serpent.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Thanks for sharing. Do you mind voting? It looks like no one believes what you seem to be saying, which is deceptive like the serpent.

Deceptive would be leading folks to believe that Gods word is not exacting and correct.
Do you need to believe in eternal punishment to become saved? I see that as an obtuse question. As part of the sanctification of the saint I must go with yes but to become a saint is perhaps a little gray area. I would be more comfortable to have someone believing it when they trusted Christ but only God can determine what the heart believes. Those who continue to reject it are placing a dark cloud over their profession.
The serpent was motivated to entice souls away from God. It would be offensive to think that was your motivation or that you were implying it was mine.

 

[public hermit]

Deceptive would be leading folks to believe that Gods word is not exacting and correct.
Do you need to believe in eternal punishment to become saved? I see that as an obtuse question. As part of the sanctification of the saint I must go with yes but to become a saint is perhaps a little gray area. I would be more comfortable to have someone believing it when they trusted Christ but only God can determine what the heart believes. Those who continue to reject it are placing a dark cloud over their profession.
The serpent was motivated to entice souls away from God. It would be offensive to think that was your motivation or that you were implying it was mine.

Okay, I appreciate the clarification. That helps.