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Is Belief a Choice?

eleos1954

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Choices, yes. Belief is not one of them. I can 'choose' to run a red light. I may actually get away with it. However, does that then mean I do not believe it is against the law? I cannot MAKE myself believe that running red lights is no longer against the law, even if I continue to choose to run them ;)

Please provide your best prophecy?

Nope won't do that because somehow you don't have any choice to believe or not believe it and therefore it is futile.
 
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cvanwey

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This shows me that you don't know what you are talking about. All religions are not the same and that shows that they all can't be true.

I never claimed all religions prophecy were the same. But other beliefs also posit prophecy. Christianity does not hold the monopoly to prophecy. And yes, the prophecies differ. But they all prove vague, and also provide details in which believers must ignore.

So please provide the very best prophecy fulfilled, which cannot be explained any other way, except from a Christian world view alone?
 
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Oncedeceived

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I never claimed all religions prophecy were the same. But other beliefs also posit prophecy. Christianity does not hold the monopoly to prophecy. And yes, the prophecies differ. But they all prove vague, and also provide details in which believers must ignore.

So please provide the very best prophecy fulfilled, which cannot be explained any other way, except from a Christian world view alone?
Provide a list of other religions that posit prophecy and have fulfilled prophecy as proof.
 
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cvanwey

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Nope won't do that because somehow you don't have any choice to believe or not believe it and therefore it is futile.

As stated many times now, belief can only change with substantiated evidence. Which is exactly why you cannot believe/unbelief any other beliefs you currently hold now ('big' or 'small') ;)
 
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Call me Nic

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I never claimed all religions prophecy were the same. But other beliefs also posit prophecy. Christianity does not hold the monopoly to prophecy. And yes, the prophecies differ. But they all prove vague, and also provide details in which believers must ignore.

So please provide the very best prophecy fulfilled, which cannot be explained any other way, except from a Christian world view alone?
Isaiah 53.

"1 Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of a dry ground:
he hath no form nor comeliness;
and when we shall see him,
there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."

This is a prophecy of Jesus suffering on the cross, which came to pass c. 33 AD.
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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Science is the measurement, observation, and study of the physical world. However, science can't measure emotion, but rather only the physical manifestation of a person's emotional response on the outside. It cannot measure logic, but rather can only measure a person's ability again on the outside. Science cannot explain where a conscience comes from. These are not material things, but these are things we experience, yet not with our eyes. Science is limited in its observation and study because it's limit is based upon the fact that the entire of creation is not all in a natural, physical state. Science can only measure and study what is tangible. There are many experiences in our human condition that lead us to understand that there is that which lies beyond tangibility.

Therefore, to rule out the existence of God based upon this assumption is the same thing as saying that a log cabin wasn't built by a man 200 years ago just because you can't find any remnant of the man who built it.
Logic is not proscriptive it's descriptive so it isn't a thing it's a way to describe a way of thinking. We can measure emotional responses and we reliably correlate it with specific actions in the brain.

About the log cabin analogy, the problem is I know where log cabins come from, and from experience I know it requires a human to make it. I don't know where universes come from.

Lastly, just because science can't explain something does not make it ok to just assert answers. Just because we don't know exactly how consciousness comes about doesn't mean we are safe to assume it is from God.
 
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Call me Nic

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I never claimed all religions prophecy were the same. But other beliefs also posit prophecy. Christianity does not hold the monopoly to prophecy. And yes, the prophecies differ. But they all prove vague, and also provide details in which believers must ignore.

So please provide the very best prophecy fulfilled, which cannot be explained any other way, except from a Christian world view alone?
Not to mention, the four gospels are 4 INDEPENDEPT accounts of witness to the ministry of Jesus Christ, including his death, burial, and resurrection. These accounts differ so much so that proves they were written independently and separate of each other, but contradict in no way so as to prove that any of the witnesses are faulty.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Logic is not proscriptive it's descriptive so it isn't a thing it's a way to describe a way of thinking. We can measure emotional responses and we reliably correlate it with specific actions in the brain.

About the log cabin analogy, the problem is I know where log cabins come from, and from experience I know it requires a human to make it. I don't know where universes come from.

Lastly, just because science can't explain something does not make it ok to just assert answers. Just because we don't know exactly how consciousness comes about doesn't mean we are safe to assume it is from God.
We can ask what is the most cohesive and coherent explanation to explain it and if it comports within the worldview one holds.
 
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cvanwey

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Isaiah 53.

"1 Who hath believed our report?
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,
and as a root out of a dry ground:
he hath no form nor comeliness;
and when we shall see him,
there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
and we hid as it were our faces from him;
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
and who shall declare his generation?
for he was cut off out of the land of the living:
for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death;
because he had done no violence,
neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."

This is a prophecy of Jesus suffering on the cross, which came to pass c. 33 AD.

And this guy is patently false because....?


However, I disagree with both you and the video. The passage is vague... True prophecy would give very specific details, and would not lead to multiple conflicting interpretations.
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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Not to mention, the four gospels are 4 INDEPENDEPT accounts of witness to the ministry of Jesus Christ, including his death, burial, and resurrection. These accounts differ so much so that proves they were written independently and separate of each other, but contradict in no way so as to prove that any of the witnesses are faulty.
The Gospels are NOT independent both Matthew and Luke borrow heavily, sometimes verbatim, from Mark. Some even suspect Luke had access to Matthew. And they contradict all over the place. Was it one man at the tomb or was it two angels? Did the curtain rip before Jesus died or after? Did Judas buy the field or did the Pharisees? And those are just from the top of my head.
 
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cvanwey

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No, you claimed that all religions have prophecy. I would like a list of these other religions and any proofs that they claim.

You are instead trying to distract from the main topic, to instead win a very minor and obscure point. I am not going to name every religion. That is ludicrous. That is a waste of time. Please address Christianity, as to why a benevolent being would fault someone for something they cannot control - (belief).

Christian prophecy is just as easily falsifiable, as the many others whom claim the same and differing future 'truths'. And by falsifiable, I mean we have the ability to actually assess it's truth value, as opposed to something not falsifiable - (like claiming I saw a ghost yesterday by myself).
 
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eleos1954

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As stated many times now, belief can only change with substantiated evidence. Which is exactly why you cannot believe/unbelief any other beliefs you currently hold now ('big' or 'small') ;)

Well .... that's your belief although nonsensical.

Sorry you choose to live that way ... oh that's right .... you don't have choices.

ok .... sorry you are that way

Have a good life. God Bless.
 
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Oncedeceived

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And this guy is patently false because....?


However, I disagree with both you and the video. The passage is vague... True prophecy would give very specific details, and would not lead to multiple conflicting interpretations.
Again, a list please of all the religions that have prophecy and the proof if any they claim.
 
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TheFriendlyAtheist

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We can ask what is the most cohesive and coherent explanation to explain it and if it comports within the worldview one holds.
Not quite, because the scientific process seeks to remove any influence a persons worldview would have on the conclusion. That is why repeatability and peer review are so important. In fact our worldview can be the biggest impediment to learning new information.
 
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Oncedeceived

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You are instead trying to distract from the main topic, to instead win a very minor and obscure point. I am not going to name every religion. That is ludicrous. That is a waste of time. Please address Christianity, as to why a benevolent being would fault someone for something they cannot control - (belief).

Christian prophecy is just as easily falsifiable, as the many others whom claim the same and differing future 'truths'. And by falsifiable, I mean we have the ability to actually assess it's truth value, as opposed to something not falsifiable - (like claiming I saw a ghost yesterday by myself).
No, what I am doing is asking you to prove your assertion.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Not quite, because the scientific process seeks to remove any influence a persons worldview would have on the conclusion. That is why repeatability and peer review are so important. In fact our worldview can be the biggest impediment to learning new information.
Considering that Science itself can not occur without many of the evidences that support God's existence makes this false.
 
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