Is being Wiccan moral?

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Sorry Whitehorse:

God doesn't find it necessary to rule with an Iron fist, He's not going to sit in Judgement on anyone, and he doesn't believe in your Bible any more than I do.

He is so gracious. So worthy. He is love.

You're right about one thing: that He doesn't want to rule with an iron fist. Man does this. And that's why it's a good thing that God is God, and we are not.

 

[MinDach]

Rom 2:1 Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man -- every one who is judging -- for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,
Rom 2:2 and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.
Rom 2:3 And dost thou think this, O man, who art judging those who such things are practising, and art doing them, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 or the riches of His goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, dost thou despise? -- not knowing that the goodness of God doth lead thee to reformation!
Rom 2:5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during;
Rom 2:8 and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and distress, upon every soul of man that is working the evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek;
Rom 2:10 and glory, and honour, and peace, to every one who is working the good, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
Rom 2:11 For there is no acceptance of faces with God,
Rom 2:12 for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged,
Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law [are] righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --
Rom 2:14 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law -- to themselves are a law;
Rom 2:15 who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Havoc, the judgment is only half the story. Salvation is the other half. God doesn't turn people away when they come to Him.

As it is written:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[Havoc]

Judgement is not half the story, since God doesn't find it necessary to judge us. Salvation is not the other half, since none of us need to be saved.

You are right about God not turning anyone away though. God and Goddess accept anyone, regardless of what name we choose to call them by.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Judgement is not half the story, since God doesn't find it necessary to judge us. Salvation is not the other half, since none of us need to be saved.

You are right about God not turning anyone away though. God and Goddess accept anyone, regardless of what name we choose to call them by.

And by what authority do you say these things? Wicca is a religion largely orchestrated by man.

 

[Havoc]

And by what authority do you say these things? Wicca is a religion largely orchestrated by man.

I say these things by God's authority. Christianity is a religion largely orchestrated by man.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Havoc, for it to be taken seriously it has to be true. Anyone can turn things around but if it isn't true, then it doesn't help any. Look, I'm debating sincerely with you here. All I ask is the same. If you want to talk more about your experiences, I'm listening.

Do you think it's by accident that we're having these debates?

 

[Havoc]

Havoc, for it to be taken seriously it has to be true.

Yes that's right. And what I'm saying is true.

Anyone can turn things around but if it isn't true, then it doesn't help any. Look, I'm debating sincerely with you here. All I ask is the same.

You set the tone of the debate by speaking your beliefs as if they were proven fact and insisting that others use that yardstick to measure their beliefs against. I'm simply helping you out by debating in the manner you've chosen. If you want to change the tone of the discussion I'm sure we can settle on something.

Do you think it's by accident that we're having these debates?

No, I don't think it's an accident. God wants you to accept him and give up your rebellion. If you weren't convicted of the Spirit of God you wouldn't be here arguing so hard against him.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Blessings and peace to you. Maybe we can talk more tomorrow

 

[Havoc]

Blessings and peace to you. Maybe we can talk more tomorrow

Any time you wish.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Okay; cool. (I should be here late evening.)

 

[Myah]

Havocs explainations are good ones... :claps: His beliefs are much like my own and I am really enjoying your debates. It helps me to look closer at my own

Blessed be,
Myah

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I will go out on a limb and guess you are talking about universal moral laws. For a moral law to be universal it would have to be applicable to all moral agents in all situations, in all cultures and at all times. I can think of no specific moral “law” which does not suffer from exceptions aside from the universal “do unto others”. It is relatively easy to identify situations where so called universal moral laws do not apply. I can think of no situation where the acting in the best interests of the one’s you love is wrong.

Well, certainly absolute laws. But whether or not all people ascribe to them is another story. That will never happen. In the creation or interpretation of moral law, people always bring baggage along.

So I am referring to the absolute law of God. Absolute truth. Now, some will say that they do not believe in Jehovah. I understand this, but even if one may not acknowledge Jehovah, then certainly they must agree that there is absolute truth.

The question is, how to arrive at this truth. Whenever mankind is the center of gravity for this truth, we will not have it. We must appeal to God who created it as the authority, because from a logical standpoint..."We ain't it."

I do not believe human beings are “hopelessly flawed” and do not understand why anyone would think so in the first place.

The person to ask is never the person, for we never have an accurate view of ourselves. We're inherently biased, so to speak. Of course I'd say, what is God's opinion of us? But if you do not accept that, then perhaps you can accept this: Don't ask a given person if we are flawed; ask a person's spouse or parent if he is flawed. This will give you a much more objective view than if you asked the person himself.

You say you know people who have done great harm to other, causing pain and suffering by their actins. I am sure you will admit you also know people who have done great good and by their actions have brought joy to people’s lives. Do people make poor ethical choices? All the time. But people also make good ethical choices and hopefully with each decision we make we grow a bit wiser in our decision making process.

This is very true, and well said. However, God's standard is perfection. So anything short of perfection is flawed. It would be similar to having someone give you a gold chain for your birthday. But when you open the box, there are several links missing from the chain and it is, as a result, in several pieces.

Only in our circumstances, we don't offer God gold. Even the best of our works are tainted with unhealthy self-interest, or pride, or reluctance, or worse. Next to God's perfection and the perfection with which He called us to live...

Not only that, but all grace is given us by God as a gift.

Simon Blackburn has written a very good book entitled “Being Good: A Short Introduction to Ethics, in it he looks at what he called “the challenge of relativism” and how the various forms of ethical structures affect us and each other. In the end he asks what if it is only us making up these moral codes as we go along and if it is just us does that really change our reasons for being moral at all. It is a fascinating read and I strongly suggest you pick it up.

I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by :

Whitehorse

Well, there are a couple of difficulties here. For starters, to not harm someone is not the same as to proactively love that person. We have sins of commission, sure; and then there are sins of omission, where we could have done something, but chose not to. Or sometimes out of ignorance. Not knowing how to handle something correctly.

By phrasing it as “harm none” Pagans are not limited to acting only in the best interest of persons they “love” Harm none applies equally to one’s enemies, to strangers, to yourself, to the community you live in, to your nation, to animals, to plants, to the planet.



I do not love everyone, nor do I think it is possible for anyone to do so. I can however act with genuine concern for the well being of others.

But here's the part that wicca is missing: it's the first part-loving God.

Do you truly believe that only Christians are capable of having a loving personal relationship with the Divine? This is what you are saying. Do you believe that you are somehow special or above the rest of us that practice your religion are capable loving and being loved by the Divine?

It is impossible to do this without recognizing God's right to rule over what He created. It's that inclination in man to be sovereign over God-an inclination that fails to be quenched through human means. We have to know this just doesn't hold water.

Why is it impossible? The only reason I can see is because this is what you wish to believe.

Well, it doesn't create loopholes. Man creates loopholes when he doesn't want to submit to what is written. The problem isn't with the law, but with the heart of mankind.

Well, it's true that Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law, but the moral law remains. Killing and bearing false witness are still wrong, and that.

Loopholes exist not because of man’s desire to subvert anything but because codified authoritarian moral laws cannot and do not cover any situation. The moral laws you embrace cannot apply to all people, in all situations, in all cultures, over all periods of times.



You mention it is wrong to kill, I assume you limit this moral law to apply only to humans (though I have argued with Christians on these forums that the moral law specifically says “murder” and murder meaning it kill someone of your social and religious class. I have been told this allows a Christian to kill of non-Christens, homosexuals and other undesirables without such act being a sin.). What about killing in self defense? What about killing to save an innocent. What about capital punishment? If you say that other later biblical verses cover these situation you are saying that the men who wrote your bible recognized that loopholes in the moral laws did exist and they were trying to close them by adding these later corollaries. The end result is that there are situations when killing is not bad but good. Bearing false witness: is it wrong to lie to save someone’s life? To protect yourself? To spare someone’s feelings.



A scenario: Take yourself back to 1943, you live in occupied Europe and you know that your neighbors are hiding two Jewish children. Today soldiers and an officer of the Nazi’s appeared at your door demanding to know if you have any information about Jews in hiding. You can tell the truth and point them directly to your neighbors home. This will mean you did not bear false witness but it also means that you will have killed not only the two small children in hiding but also your neighbors as well. True you are not the who puts the barrel of a gun up to your neighbor’s head and you and pulling the trigger. It is also true you will not be the one dropping cyanide pellets into the gas chamber snuffing out the lives of those children and hundreds of others but your actions led to their deaths and that means you killed them as surely as if you did pull that trigger. On the other hand you can lie and protect these children and your neighbors, but according your moral laws lying is wrong, it is still immoral. While I do not pretend to be a biblical expert I am positive your bible does not say “thou shall not bare false witness unless it is to Nazi’s at your front door. What will you do? Both choices are immoral you end up sinning one way or another.

Please note that the Pagan in this scenario will not have ANY difficulty with this moral dilemma. It is easy to act with legitimate concern for others and will happily lie to those nazi’s and afterwards not feel one shred of guilt about doing so.

 

[Volos]

Originally posted by :

Whitehorse

Well, certainly absolute laws. But whether or not all people ascribe to them is another story. That will never happen. In the creation or interpretation of moral law, people always bring baggage along.

So I am referring to the absolute law of God. Absolute truth. Now, some will say that they do not believe in Jehovah. I understand this, but even if one may not acknowledge Jehovah, then certainly they must agree that there is absolute truth.

The existence of “absolute truth” is a completely different debate. I would point out to you htat ther eis no consensous of the existnece of absolute truth and as such I can say that we need not agree that absolute truth exists.

The question is, how to arrive at this truth. Whenever mankind is the center of gravity for this truth, we will not have it. We must appeal to God who created it as the authority, because from a logical standpoint..."We ain't it."

IF such absolute truth exists the next quesiton becoems “is such truth knowable?”



You choose to apeal to the writings of yoru religion for yoru answers. You mistake these writings for authority.

I do not believe human beings are “hopelessly flawed” and do not understand why anyone would think so in the first place.

The person to ask is never the person, for we never have an accurate view of ourselves. We're inherently biased, so to speak. Of course I'd say, what is God's opinion of us? But if you do not accept that, then perhaps you can accept this: Don't ask a given person if we are flawed; ask a person's spouse or parent if he is flawed. This will give you a much more objective view than if you asked the person himself.

no where did I say anything about either being free from flaws or judging our own flaws.



I said that no one is HOPELESSLY flawed.

This is very true, and well said. However, God's standard is perfection. So anything short of perfection is flawed. It would be similar to having someone give you a gold chain for your birthday. But when you open the box, there are several links missing from the chain and it is, as a result, in several pieces.

Only in our circumstances, we don't offer God gold. Even the best of our works are tainted with unhealthy self-interest, or pride, or reluctance, or worse. Next to God's perfection and the perfection with which He called us to live...

Who says that absolute perfection is the standard of the Divine. It seems to me that would be humans saying that. Apparently you are engaging in the very activity you condemn Pagans for. You are dictating what the Divine is and what the Divine isn’t. I believe that is called hubris.





Interesting analogy you make. For my last birthday my 4 year old niece gave me an elaborate hand made card of construction paper, tissue paper flowers and elaborate crayon drawings. Being 4 and it being a long drive to my home she “handled” it a bit much in the car and as a result it arrived bent, smeared and slightly torn. She was devastated by this turn of events. I still have the card and strangely enough, I think it is just perfect the way it is.



You talk at length about your all loving God yet this is the same God who judges and measures all things by his standard of perfection. The two seem mutually exclusive.

Not only that, but all grace is given us by God as a gift.

a gift given in perfect love demands nothing in return.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

[/i]By phrasing it as “harm none” Pagans are not limited to acting only in the best interest of persons they “love” Harm none applies equally to one’s enemies, to strangers, to yourself, to the community you live in, to your nation, to animals, to plants, to the planet.

I understand. I just still see a big difference between not harming, and proactively loving. The center of gravity is different.

I do not love everyone, nor do I think it is possible for anyone to do so. I can however act with genuine concern for the well being of others.

In and of ourselves, you're right. We can't love everyone on our own. But with God's Spirit, it is possible to do so. And it is a very sweet thing, too.

But the thing to understand is that love is not an emotion in the Christian faith, although it can often follow the action. It's really hard to hate someone you're praying for. But love is an action. So, someone can be rude for a long period of time, and I may not feel any particular inclination toward that person, but God still calls me to put those negative feelings aside, to try to understand how they could be that way, or why, and do good for that person.

Do I do this perfectly? No. Do I fail? Yes. But it's an ongoing process to root those out and to become more and more skilled at loving those who seem unlovable. Because the truth is, they are image bearers of God. So once again, it is because of who God is that they are worthy of dignity and respect and love.

The key for me is learning not to be who I am because of how someone else is. That gives them too much power. It's to be who I am because of how God is, and that's hard. It takes a lot of practice, a lot of thought, a lot of energy, and I'm flawed.

Do you truly believe that only Christians are capable of having a loving personal relationship with the Divine?

Well, being that our relationship with God is not through any merit of our own, but by God's sovereig decree, yes. Because He is the only God and He has laid out these rules. So for me to say that people of any religion could do this would seem more accepting of man on the surface, but in reality it would be very harmful to say this and very unaccepting, because it would undo the souls of my fellow creatures. Man never had the authority to seek God on his terms. True humility is to bow before God and know my place. God is the authority on God. I'm just the creature.

This is what you are saying. Do you believe that you are somehow special or above the rest of us that practice your religion are capable loving and being loved by the Divine?

Do I believe I am special or above anyone else?

Decidedly not.

See, this is the natural implication of placing God on the throne and gettin man off of it: it is possible to have this relationship with the divine not because I am anything special. The Lord knows after 30+ years of studying scripture that I have a very keen sense of my own failures! What is special, is the Lord. He loves me anyway.

Please understand, this is why a religion based upon man can never reach the divine. In and of myself, there is no way I could possibly love some of the people God has called me to love. Because I am flawed-my natural inclination isn't to love people I don't enjoy being around.

But God is the kind who would go to the cross to save people who presently hated Him. He's the kind who took the ultimate beating on His back for things He never did. And why? Because He simply wouldn't spend eternity without His beloved. And these were His enemies who would one day become His beloved.

So. can you see why this makes Him special? Can you see how He is different from us? And He still will show His power through love for people who presently hate Him today.

So I am nothing, and He is everything. But because of God's Spirit living in me, He moves through me. He loves through me. And there have been times under extreme cicumstances where the most love I could give someone initially was to just say a three-word prayer through gritted teeth. But then the next night, I was able to say it more easily. And then the next night, I was able to add a few more petitions based upon what I knew of their circumstances. And then, because it was God who was loving through me, I began to see how someone might be that way. I could feel compassion. Not pity; not that false kind that is laden with anger, but I was able to feel what God felt for this person. And then I began to love. And then I began looking for ways to show it.

But that's God. That's not me. I already told you that I would not have been willing to love: without Him. It was the practice of putting myself aside and becoming a vessel for God. The more nothing I am, the more everything God is through me. And I want that. What I am is not valuable, because it is laden with sin. But what God is, is everything. I want to be a vessel for everything.

You should try it. It's actually great fun!

Why is it impossible? The only reason I can see is because this is what you wish to believe.

Because we don't have a right to make our own rules or consider ourselves gods or at all divine. Everything we can see testifies that this is not so. And who believes this because they want to? It's just an obvious fact. Of course, our tendency is to want to believe we are these things. But-we're not. Just an objective fact, based on everything we can see. That's why it is impossible.

Loopholes exist not because of man’s desire to subvert anything but because codified authoritarian moral laws cannot and do not cover any situation. The moral laws you embrace cannot apply to all people, in all situations, in all cultures, over all periods of times.

No. A loophole is a way out of something. Where do you get this idea that man is only looking to obey law better when your own religion is a testimony to man's desire to do as he wills? Isn't that what it says? Do no harm...and do as you will. Get the deities to help get what you want. This is not a judgment; it's simply the fact.

You mention it is wrong to kill, I assume you limit this moral law to apply only to humans (though I have argued with Christians on these forums that the moral law specifically says “murder” and murder meaning it kill someone of your social and religious class.

You used the term murder where the objective word is kill. If it authorized by the authority of God, then it is not murder. And I still await this answer: Why does God not have the right to rule over what His own hands have made? Have you already said you do not feel it is possible to love everyone? And has not God already taken the blows for sins He didn't commit?

I have been told this allows a Christian to kill of non-Christens, homosexuals and other undesirables without such act being a sin.).

Christian. That would be under the New Covenant. Where is it written? Again, you're saying what man has told you. What about God? Read the New Testament.

What about killing in self defense? What about killing to save an innocent. What about capital punishment? If you say that other later biblical verses cover these situation you are saying that the men who wrote your bible recognized that loopholes in the moral laws did exist and they were trying to close them by adding these later corollaries. The end result is that there are situations when killing is not bad but good. Bearing false witness: is it wrong to lie to save someone’s life? To protect yourself? To spare someone’s feelings.

This seems like a search for loopholes. Ways of making God's law seem unjust, and making man seem more just than God. Again, I ask you: Why do you feel that the creature has any right to judge the Creator?

A scenario: Take yourself back to 1943, you live in occupied Europe and you know that your neighbors are hiding two Jewish children. Today soldiers and an officer of the Nazi’s appeared at your door demanding to know if you have any information about Jews in hiding. You can tell the truth and point them directly to your neighbors home. This will mean you did not bear false witness but it also means that you will have killed not only the two small children in hiding but also your neighbors as well. True you are not the who puts the barrel of a gun up to your neighbor’s head and you and pulling the trigger. It is also true you will not be the one dropping cyanide pellets into the gas chamber snuffing out the lives of those children and hundreds of others but your actions led to their deaths and that means you killed them as surely as if you did pull that trigger. On the other hand you can lie and protect these children and your neighbors, but according your moral laws lying is wrong, it is still immoral. While I do not pretend to be a biblical expert I am positive your bible does not say “thou shall not bare false witness unless it is to Nazi’s at your front door. What will you do? Both choices are immoral you end up sinning one way or another.

We are not to obey the laws of man where they violate the laws of God. Those were God's people being slaughtered.

It is wrong to lie. But to save the life of a just person, I refer you to James 2:25. As it is written:

James 2

2:25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Perhaps you are familiar with the Bible or this event, but if not, the whole story can be read in Joshua chapters 1 and 2. It is very much like the example you gave. There is a spirit to God's law, but this is not an excuse for disobedience, as some make it out to be. Rather, it is precision.

Please note that the Pagan in this scenario will not have ANY difficulty with this moral dilemma. It is easy to act with legitimate concern for others and will happily lie to those nazi’s and afterwards not feel one shred of guilt about doing so.

And neither does the Christian have any problems with this dilemma. The question is, Who is the Authority? Man is not god.

Matthew 16

16:26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Havoc]

Unfortunatly Whitehorse, God bears no relation to how you are describing Him, and He does not require of us what you say he does. Also the things you are claiming are "facts", "obvious", and "undeniable", etc. are not so at all.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Unfortunatly Whitehorse, God bears no relation to how you are describing Him, and He does not require of us what you say he does. Also the things you are claiming are "facts", "obvious", and "undeniable", etc. are not so at all.

Do you have something to verify what you are saying? By what authority do you make this statement?

 

[PistGurl]

What about curses 'n stuff in Wiccan (I'm not implying all wiccans do this or trying to pin ya with it) just honest question, wiccan appears to have some roots in not so friendly practices.

These people would be wrong to call themselves Wiccans, the whole idea of Wicca is that we do no harm at all, under any circumstance. These people are NOT Wiccan. This is like calling someone who burns crucifixes Christian It makes me sad that people can think that we do these things under the name of our religion.