Is being Wiccan moral?

msjones21 · May 14, 2004

Sola, my icon has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Please stop making baseless points in a vain attempt to discredit people. You make absolutely no sense and thus far have contributed nothing to this debate. At least Whitehorse has contributed. You've merely made personal jabs and cheered Whitehorse on from the sidelines. The way I see it, either put up or shut up.

It's apparent this debate has reached its end. I think we have reached a point in which no one is going to agree on this issue. Whitehorse certainly won't convert us Wiccans and none of us are going to be able to successfully dispell the erroneous claims made against our faith. *le sigh*

SquareC · May 14, 2004

msjones21 said:
Sola, my icon has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Please stop making baseless points in a vain attempt to discredit people. You make absolutely no sense and thus far have contributed nothing to this debate. At least Whitehorse has contributed. You've merely made personal jabs and cheered Whitehorse on from the sidelines. The way I see it, either put up or shut up.

It's apparent this debate has reached its end. I think we have reached a point in which no one is going to agree on this issue. Whitehorse certainly won't convert us Wiccans and none of us are going to be able to successfully dispell the erroneous claims made against our faith. *le sigh*

If I were going to be converted, Whitehorse and his tactics (and cheerleader) would be the absolute last to do so.

ACougar · May 14, 2004

Whitehorse said:
First of all, God is God. That needs to be remebered. He isn't a man; we're all sublect to both laws and flaws. God is the Sovereign of the Universe.

You see, that is a fundamental point of disagreement. Nature is a theophany, a manifestation of Divinity. There is no seperation from the Divine, no fall, no sin. You have cast yourself out of the Garden of Eden because you do not understand it.

But I think human beings have a harder time making that distinction because in reality, man wants to be god and hence sets himself up as god. He makes his own rules and lives according to what pleases him. Man sweeps under the rug the fact that he has no right to this claim. He was born without having any say, and he will be judged by God, without having any say.

You assume that the laws of Nature are always pleasing to man, they are not. You can't sow barley and grow corn, you can't upset the balance without paying a price, Nature is Gods divine law written by Her own hand.

God's rules are good rules. We're not in a position to judge Him.

I am in a position to judge a religion however, and it's understanding of God. What is good, what is bad and what is just plain ugly.

By age two, a normal human being will have acquired a sense of Object Permanence in his cognitive development. This is the idea that an object that is out of view still exists. This is where a parent will show the child a toy, then hide it behind his back, and the child will now begin looking for the toy, realizing it still exists even if he can't see it. Most children actually learn this much earlier, around six to nine months, but in order to be comsidered normal, it is to be grasped no later than age two.

But somehow the desire for man to be his own god is so strong, that man will ignore all the evidence in the world, accepting anything, even nothing, before accepting the truth. This, unless the Spirit of God intervenes.

First you imply that I or Wiccans do not believe in God, She walks with me every day. I see God in all things, everywhere. I even accept your understanding of God to some extent, an aspect of the Infinite Divine. Second, it is the search for truth that led me away from Christianity in the first place, the Spirit of God intervenes in my life daily.

SquareC · May 14, 2004

ACougar said:
You assume that the laws of Nature are always pleasing to man, they are not. You can't sow barley and grow corn, you can't upset the balance without paying a price, Nature is Gods divine law written by Her own hand.

Well said!

When I see lightning, it is the Lady's temper.
When I see rain, she weeps.
When I see a rainbow, it is her smile.

ACougar said:
First you imply that I or Wiccans do not believe in God, She walks with me every day. I see God in all things, everywhere. I even accept your understanding of God to some extent, an aspect of the Infinite Divine. Second, it is the search for truth that led me away from Christianity in the first place, the Spirit of God intervenes in my life daily.

And she smiles upon you and I, and does not turn her face, even from those who torture her with horrors like "sin" and "damnation" and "hell."

ACougar · May 14, 2004

Wicca may at first seem to be a religion where individual authority reigns supreme, what you do not understand however is that the purpose of all the rituals, all the spiritual work, all the study and self searching is complete harmony with Divine will. The Spirit is developed, and attuned to the Divine within, and then outside of self.

The reason your "evidence" is not recognized is because it is an apeal to an authority we do not accept. You will have to provide some other evidence, because the Bible is not a recognized source of authority.

I do not really seek to debate Whitehorse, I would however like to gift you with a better understanding of that which you condemn.

Whitehorse said:
I invite you again to refute something, anything, that I've said. You are your own authority. That's the rule of wicca. Do whatever you please. Since you have never seen God, you cannot be the authority on God. Only God can be, and we know it through what he has revealed. But you steadfastly refuse to come to grips with this issue. You just ask for proof where proof has already been provided, and then you expect me to repeat the same thing endlessly. Then, after telling me to repeat it endlessly for your own unwillingness (or inability) to refute the evidence, you just cover your eyes and say there is no evidence. And then you tell me my reasoning is circular.

Where is this reasonable debate you're talking about?

ACougar · May 14, 2004

SquareC said:
Well said!

When I see lightning, it is the Lady's temper.
When I see rain, she weeps.
When I see a rainbow, it is her smile.

And she smiles upon you and I, and does not turn her face, even from those who torture her with horrors like "sin" and "damnation" and "hell."

Thanks, may you have a Blessed day!

transientlife · May 14, 2004

Sola Scriptura said:
Hey transientlife. You didn't happen to vote for the 87 billion before you voted against it?

OH, and btw, my dear Sola...if I am not mistaken you are just criticizing a point ( "seeing both sides") which I made earlier today -just reworded and expanded- that you actually agreed with (see post about stepping back from your personal beliefs and evaluating different ones).

transientlife · May 14, 2004

msjones21 said:
It's apparent this debate has reached its end. I think we have reached a point in which no one is going to agree on this issue. Whitehorse certainly won't convert us Wiccans and none of us are going to be able to successfully dispell the erroneous claims made against our faith. *le sigh*

How many pages is this debate (90some)? I think the true subject of the debate was lost back on page 20...for as many pages as I have counted it's been merely defending one person's opinion/beliefs against anothers - and not just about Wiccans.

transientlife · May 14, 2004

This is a last minute comment on teaching....re:Whitehorse's posts....

I don't know if I am teaching anything scripturally to the pagans, atheists or otherwise (I can only introduce, if they want to learn, it should be a personal endeavor.) The one thing I hope that I would be "teaching" them is that not all Christians are alike - some are receptive to outside ideas, some are not. Some are kind, some are rather brash. Some are literalists, some are figuratives, some are a bit of both. The spectrum of Christians is a wide and varied one. But I think most of them with common sense already realize this

Volos · May 14, 2004

Whitehorse said:
First of all, God is God.

Yes she is.

That needs to be remebered. He isn't a man;

I know of no one claiming otherwise.

we're all sublect to both laws and flaws. God is the Sovereign of the Universe.

Whose laws?

You claim your God has written words in a little book and that these are somehow meaningful to everyone but you can only show that these so called laws are meaningful to you personally because of your belief. We accept that such is your belief but we do not accept your belief as true in the empirical sense, it is just your belief.

But I think human beings have a harder time making that distinction because in reality, man wants to be god and hence sets himself up as god. He makes his own rules and lives according to what pleases him. Man sweeps under the rug the fact that he has no right to this claim. He was born without having any say, and he will be judged by God, without having any say.

You continue to make this claim but you seem to be the only actually engaging in this behavior. You continually set yourself up as the arbitrator , the intermediary or the God substitute by announcing you personal authority, by denouncing any Christian who dares to disagree with you and by making unsupported truth claims.

Your posts here are all about glorifying the self over others.

God's rules are good rules. We're not in a position to judge Him.

and mans rules (like the rules in the bible) are perfectaly judganble.

By age two, a normal human being will have acquired a sense of Object Permanence in his cognitive development. This is the idea that an object that is out of view still exists. This is where a parent will show the child a toy, then hide it behind his back, and the child will now begin looking for the toy, realizing it still exists even if he can't see it. Most children actually learn this much earlier, around six to nine months, but in order to be comsidered normal, it is to be grasped no later than age two.

Actually much earlier than age two.

Children as young as two months demonstrate the cognitive ability to grasp object permanence.

Munakata, Y., McClelland, J. L., Johnson, M. H., & Siegler, R. S. (1997). Rethinking infant knowledge: Towards an adaptive process account of successes and failures in object permanence. Psychological Review, 104,686-713.

But somehow the desire for man to be his own god is so strong, that man will ignore all the evidence in the world, accepting anything, even nothing, before accepting the truth. This, unless the Spirit of God intervenes.

You are talking to people who believe the existence of the Divine, not to Atheists.

I have atheist friends who would happily point out that you have yet to show ANY evidence for the existence of your (or any) God or Goddess. I will echo this in that you seem to be claiming proof of the existence of YOUR God and your god alone but you have yet to show such evidence. You have your belief but that is not proof of anything beyond what you believe.

Volos · May 14, 2004

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ACougar again.

Volos · May 14, 2004

Whitehorse said:
I invite you again to refute something, anything, that I've said.

Your statements are however not statements of fact but statements of belief.

No one can refute statements of belief because they are esthetic statements. It is like saying I like the paintings of Picassoprove me wrong. You cant show that someone does or does not like Picasso or any other artist

You are your own authority.

No I am self responsible.

That's the rule of wicca.

The Wiccan Rede is not a rule or a law. is a generally accepted core principal throughout the Neopagan community. It is a statement of respect for all nature and all that exists therein. The Rede is a guideline, to help us consider the ramifications of our actions, nothing more.

Since this has been stated multiple times I can only assume you are purposefully misrepresenting it for your own purposes.

Do whatever you please.

Once again your statements show you are purposefully misrepresenting the NeoPagan religion

Since you have never seen God, you cannot be the authority on God. Only God can be, and we know it through what he has revealed.

Again it is only your belief that anything has been revealed about the nature of the Divine, it is not a fact that your God or any God or Goddess has revealed anything.

But you steadfastly refuse to come to grips with this issue.

Translation: you are not believing what I tell you to believe.

Once again you are glorifying yourself in stating that you personally have insight into the nature of the Divine and that you personally are following the one true religion. You are not glorifying your God by misrepresenting our religion, you are not Glorifying your God by denouncing the beliefs or the practices of other Christians. You are not glorifying your God by declaring yourself an authority. You are feeding your own ego. You are glorifying yourself.

You just ask for proof where proof has already been provided, and then you expect me to repeat the same thing endlessly.

no proof has been provided. You have made truth claims that you have consistently failed to show as true.

You state your beliefs as facts but in the end they are just beliefs.

Then, after telling me to repeat it endlessly for your own unwillingness (or inability) to refute the evidence, you just cover your eyes and say there is no evidence. And then you tell me my reasoning is circular.

There is no evidence to refute, just your belief and as noted above that cannot declared either true or false

transientlife · May 14, 2004

SquareC said:
When I see lightning, it is the Lady's temper.
When I see rain, she weeps.
When I see a rainbow, it is her smile.

Not to plagiarize your views, SquareC...but my take, if I may :

When I see lightning, it is electricity in the air generated by things (energy, positive/negative ions) created by God. I see it as a call to remember we are but humble humans in the scheme of things.

When I see rain, I see preciptation falling to promote growth of trees and other plants grown by God himself in all their beauty and to support the lifesystem for all his creations; human, animal and plant alike. You could also say it is everyday symbolism for washing away of old and starting anew.

When I see a rainbow, I see reflections of droplets of water in the air that God created to remind us that after every dark storm, there comes peace and light.

Just my version of your insightful post. Hope you don't mind!

transientlife · May 14, 2004

Sola Scriptura said:
KABUMPP!!! This knocked me onto my bony butt with power. Whitehorse don't stop galloping through this vast country. You are the posterity of Shadowfax that great steed. With your hooves you stomp out the fires which burst around you. Your snorts are mighty your spirit free in the truth.

Funny, I didn't feel a thing

mojorising · May 14, 2004

Teh Wiccan said:
Considering that the basic requirment of Wicca is do no harm, and as a Wiccan you are supposed to be kind, would it be moral?

Question...have you ever met one? I have a close Christian friend that could rip anything to the contray to shreds, in support of diversity.

mojo

Sola Scriptura · May 15, 2004

transientlife said:
Funny, I didn't feel a thing

Maybe you need to go on a diet? oops

_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel-

transientlife · May 15, 2004

ha ha fun-ny fun-ny

Sola Scriptura said:
Isnt there an angry juvenile thread somewhere where folks like this can post while they chew on a rubber stick?

hmmm

Either way, I expected better than that

Teh Wiccan · May 15, 2004

mojorising said:
Question...have you ever met one? I have a close Christian friend that could rip anything to the contray to shreds, in support of diversity.

mojo

Yes, I have, including being Wiccan myself.

Sola Scriptura · May 15, 2004

I needed another blessing.

_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel- [/QUOTE]

transientlife · May 15, 2004

So do I

Is being Wiccan moral?

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