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Do you believe that preaching likewise always produces faith in the hearers?
No, as I would hold that God has decided to apply directly Himself the saving Grace of the Cross of Christ towards such as those!
So any one who has even been saved by him, would always be by the same way!
The basis of salvation never changes, and the method its applied to save us does not change...
The power is in the Gospel, as one hears and believes in Jesus to save them.... As to be old enough to respond to what they hear!
There are those who will reject the Gospel when it is preached. Just as there are those who reject their baptism have scorned faith and rejected it.
Consider the Parable of the Sower.
-CryptoLutheran
I agree that people can accept or reject their baptism just like people can accept or reject the preaching of the gospel. But I think that in the same way that preaching God's word does not automatically produce faith in the hearers, so baptism cannot be said to automatically produce faith in the baptized.
just like people can accept or reject the preaching of the gospel.
When Christ said "talitha koum" could the little girl have remained dead?
-CryptoLutheran
Nope. You believe this implies that baptism always produces faith in the baptized? You'll have to make that connection for me.
So when God's word acts upon someone, it is efficacious--doing what it was set out to do, correct?
Not all who hear the Gospel will believe, many will reject it.
But when that word acts upon the person, accomplishing its purpose, it has acted--that person has faith.
When Christ told the little girl to get up, the word acted and made happen what was commanded.
When the hearer of the Gospel is made alive by the word, that person has faith--even if they were to reject it later.
When a person is baptized the word connected to the water has so acted, and that person is born again, they have faith--even if they later reject it.
There is no failure in the word, the word is faithful, true, and perfectly efficacious.
If you are someone opposed to the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, please give your reasons for being opposed, and preferably back up your argument from the text of Scripture.
I agree with all of the above.
Here's where you lose me. We know that the preached word does not always produce faith in its hearers. It's not that everyone who hears the gospel automatically believes, but that unbelievers reject their faith in the very next moment! Some hear and believe because the Holy Spirit makes the word effective. Others hear and do not believe because the Holy Spirit does not make the word effective to their salvation, but rather makes the word effective to their judgment.
If you're drawing a parallel between baptism and the preached word, your parallel fails here. You suggest that baptism is always made effective by the Holy Spirit. Your rationale is that baptism is just as effective as the preached word. But your analogy fails because the preached word, as you admit, does not always produce faith. So I believe you are left without a rationale for your view on baptism.
Your Calvinism is getting in the way. Placing the onus of rejection on God. I.e. God chooses some and not others, those He chooses are necessarily saved and those He does not are necessarily damned. That simply isn't the case, however. For it is the will of God that all be saved, all meaning all--all. Everyone.
And, hence, as I said before, that is leading us to Crux Theologorum territory.
-CryptoLutheran
That's baptism.
-CryptoLutheran
Yes it is - an ancient definition.
But, why and when did baptism with water - something John the Baptist did as a diligent prophet in foreshadowing the Redeemer and the spiritual process of being His brother/sister and disciple - become salvation doctrine?
Isn't it that those who see water baptism as essential and required would say that either God Himself grants salvation by the rite, or else gives faith to one getting it supernaturally, so by that system, would have to be always effective when administered?I agree that people can accept or reject their baptism just like people can accept or reject the preaching of the gospel. But I think that in the same way that preaching God's word does not automatically produce faith in the hearers, so baptism cannot be said to automatically produce faith in the baptized.
Isn't it that those who see water baptism as essential and required would say that either God Himself grants salvation by the rite, or else gives faith to one getting it supernaturally, so by that system, would have to be always effective when administered?
Indeed, and I still have to hold with the truth that a sinner is freely justified by God on the basis of the Cross of Christ, and that we receive that by faith alone, nothing more, and nothing less!There's a lot of different views on this.
Many churches that believe that baptism is automatically efficacious do not believe that it is strictly essential for salvation. Roman Catholics and Lutherans, for example, certainly believe in the importance of baptism and in normal circumstances would call it essential to salvation. But they are willing to make many exceptions like the thief on the cross, infants who die before baptism, and those who die without the opportunity to be baptized. In these instances I believe they would say that the desire to be baptized is enough.
Some churches that believe that baptism is absolutely essential to salvation do not believe that baptism is automatically efficacious. Some Church of Christ churches, for example, believe that baptism is essential for salvation, but they believe it's only a sign and in itself does nothing to save.
Pretty weird, huh?
Indeed, and I still have to hold with the truth that a sinner is freely justified by God on the basis of the Cross of Christ, and that we receive that by faith alone, nothing more, and nothing less!
Yes, I am a reformed Baptist, so would agree with you on that!I don't think the Lutherans or the Reformed would argue with you. We would just add, in different ways, that baptism is part of God's ordained means of our receiving the gospel and exercising faith.
Yes it is - an ancient definition.
But, why and when did baptism with water - something John the Baptist did as a diligent prophet in foreshadowing the Redeemer and the spiritual process of being His brother/sister and disciple - become salvation doctrine?
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