Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Saint Steven · May 2, 2019

Phil W said:
That doesn't answer my question.
Why is the Jewish path to salvation different than the Gentile's?
If the Jews must "endure till the end", why wouldn't the Gentiles also need to remain faithfully pure?
I can't believe for a second that the Gentiles DON'T need to endure till the end in order to be saved.

The passage you snipped that half sentence from is not about a path to salvation.

Hillsage · May 2, 2019

John the Ex-Baptist said:
After reading through this thread, I have heard many objections that in years gone by I would have used myself many times over. Especially things such as the distinction between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Even now, not just I but most Lutherans would agree, that being baptised in water alone is simply as powerful in and of itself as a shower or bath.

I like a lot of what you said here. Especially what you just said about a shower or bath, because that really lines up with a pretty definitive scripture IMO. A scripture which, I believe, identifies specifically with 'which baptism' is being spoken of. That being 'water baptism'.

1PE 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body (with water) but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

So we're dealt with a comparison of a 'shower/bath' "removal of dirt from the body"
with ritualistic symbolic water baptism. And we're comparing 'that' with it's opposite, but spiritually 'true meaning' of "an appeal to God for a clear conscience" based upon what the "resurrection" truly represents to us.

The question I ask is why would we even have to relate to having a 'need' for a clear conscience after getting SAVED? I'd say 'after' we've sinned since becoming a believer. It is only then that I need to remember the 'ritual' baptism which was 'symbolic' water of the spiritual reality that Jesus forgave and forgives ALL MY SINS....confess or un-confessed. Those sins are under the 'living' waters of the baptism of His death AND "RESURRECTION" on the cross.

As Lutherans we do not look at our baptism as a one off work that we carried out in obedience to God, but rather as I said earlier, it is a work that God does to us in uniting us to His Son, both in His death and life,....

I agree it was His work which we receive by holding out our hand and receiving. Holding our hand may look like Repentance, confession (IMO) but those who would call this 'work' merely line up with the pharisees of old who made dragging a chair across the dirt floor the equivalent of plowing in the field thereby not 'resting on the Sabbath' and becoming a lawbreaker.

nolidad · May 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
It has to do with eternal salvation anytime, and anywhere Christians are being persecuted and are tempted to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord in order to save their natural life.

It was true during the first century and it is true today.

JLB

I am sorry but the Word of God leaves no doubt that when someone is born from above- they are eternally secure.

If someone who has been made a new creature in Christ by trusting in His death and Resurrection for their sin, if they8 can lose their salvation- then that means that Jesus did not die for all their sins and did not forgive all their sins and that is simply a lie!

And that passage in its context is the 70th week for Jews! Unless you plan on living in jerusalem so when the antichrist sits on the temple you can flee to Petra with the Jews!

nolidad · May 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
When it comes to the Spirit...
Don't assume that what happened to you (or what you think happened to you) is what will happens to everyone. The Spirit is rather unpredictable.

Well the Spirit cqan be unpredictable but also very predictable! When we were saved by the Baptizing of us by the Spirit into the Body of Christ we were given the whole spirit! We were also given all the gifts God willed for us. We learn to walk in the spirit and we discover what God has given us in time.

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

Phil W said:
So you actually believe that folks who elevate their supposedly dead flesh above the Lord and Creator of the universe have NOT decided to believe something is more important than God?
That's like saying you still love your wife above everything else...while you commit adultery.
It is a lie.

You artificially inflate the word "renounce" in order to ignore the fact that disobedience is renouncement.

I used the word renounce to clarify the issue.

Walking in the flesh and practicing the works of the flesh, when we are supposed to be walking according to the Spirit, and practicing righteousness is one thing.

Renouncing Jesus Christ as Messiah and confessing Allah as Lord, to save your natural life or get the persecution to stop will result in eternal damnation that is irrevocable.

JLB

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Who hasn't fallen away in times of temptation?

Brother, this has nothing to do with “backsliding”.

This is about being persecuted for being a Christian, and falling into temptation to reject Jesus Christ as Messiah to save your life or relieve the suffering of the persecution.

Please tell me you understand the difference.

JLB

JLB777 · May 2, 2019

nolidad said:
I am sorry but the Word of God leaves no doubt that when someone is born from above- they are eternally secure.

I’m sorry but there is no where in the Bible that teaches such nonsense.

One scripture refutes that entire “theory”.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the Bible instructs us to remain “in Christ”.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

Saint Steven · May 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
Brother, this has nothing to do with “backsliding”.

This is about being persecuted for being a Christian, and falling into temptation to reject Jesus Christ as Messiah to save your life or relieve the suffering of the persecution.

Please tell me you understand the difference.

JLB

And you honestly believe that would "result in eternal damnation that is irrevocable."
Is that what happened to the Apostle Peter?

Phil W · May 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
How can such things be measured?

It can be measured by love for God and neighbor without interruption.

Who hasn't fallen away in times of temptation?

They whose repentance from sin is true.
They who have crucified the flesh, buried it , and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

Are they now lost for not enduring until the end?
Seems so. They didn't endure until the end.

What you might call "falling away" I call...never turned from sin.

You post is a thinly veiled salvation by works appeal. No thanks.

The salvation you espouse seems to be one without love...for God above ALL else.
I mean, really?
Sin when the occasion presents itself, without consequences?

Phil W · May 2, 2019

JLB777 said:
I’m sorry but there is no where in the Bible that teaches such nonsense.

1 John 3:9 comes pretty close..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

One scripture refutes that entire “theory”.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how the Bible instructs us to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24 JLB

Amen to that !

Phil W · May 2, 2019

nolidad said:
I am sorry but the Word of God leaves no doubt that when someone is born from above- they are eternally secure.

If someone who has been made a new creature in Christ by trusting in His death and Resurrection for their sin, if they can lose their salvation- then that means that Jesus did not die for all their sins and did not forgive all their sins and that is simply a lie!
!

How can the new creature, one that which is reborn of Godly seed, commit sin?
Trust this..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

Jesus did die for the remission of all mankind's sins, but if men will not submit to His lordship they will not be counted worthy of eternal life.

nolidad · May 3, 2019

Phil W said:
How can the new creature, one that which is reborn of Godly seed, commit sin?
Trust this..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

Jesus did die for the remission of all mankind's sins, but if men will not submit to His lordship they will not be counted worthy of eternal life.

the new man doesn't, but the old man that still ives within us even though god has declared him dead- can do nothing but sin. so when we yield to the old man- we sin! it is that simple! We know longer have to yield to the old man, but all do at times- that is why we were given 1 JOhn 1:9.

Yes Jesus did die for the sins of the world

1 John 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

People do not go to the lake of fire because they are sinners, but because they rejected the only means of salvation for their sins.

nolidad · May 3, 2019

Phil W said:
1 John 3:9 comes pretty close..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Amen to that !

The new man cannot sin, but the old man does!

nolidad · May 3, 2019

Phil W said:
It can be measured by love for God and neighbor without interruption.

They whose repentance from sin is true.
They who have crucified the flesh, buried it , and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

What you might call "falling away" I call...never turned from sin.

The salvation you espouse seems to be one without love...for God above ALL else.
I mean, really?
Sin when the occasion presents itself, without consequences?

So you believe that opnly those who cease from sin have truly repented and are saved! You declare that people who call themselves believers but commit a sin are not true believers--God will show you differently.

JLB777 · May 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
And you honestly believe that would "result in eternal damnation that is irrevocable."
Is that what happened to the Apostle Peter?

No that isn’t what happened to Peter, because Peter wasn’t being persecuted by anyone, nor did Peter renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah.

Peter knew and believed Jesus is the Son of God and the true Messiah.

Again, here are the scriptures that teach this principle.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

Stumble or Offend means to turn away from obeying or trusting one in authority. To desert them.

Stumble is what leads to departing from or falling away from Christ.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

This is another way of saying endure or believe or continue to have faith to the end.

again

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...

The “hope” of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.

To inherit eternal life.

JLB

JLB777 · May 3, 2019

Phil W said:
How can the new creature, one that which is reborn of Godly seed, commit sin?

Happens every day.

Thank God we can confess our sin, and be forgiven as well as cleansed of all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

JLB

Saint Steven · May 3, 2019

JLB777 said:
No that isn’t what happened to Peter, because Peter wasn’t being persecuted by anyone, nor did Peter renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah.

Seriously? Peter wasn't being persecuted? (wrong)
And he didn't renounce Christ? (wrong again)

He clearly did not "endure to the end."
Would that not indicate to you that he wasn't saved?

Saint Steven · May 3, 2019

JLB777 said:
The “hope” of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul.

To inherit eternal life.

Are you saying that you "hope" to be saved one day (at the Final Judgment), if you endure until the end?

JLB777 · May 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
He clearly did not "endure to the end."
Would that not indicate to you that he wasn't saved?

Of course he did.

And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:31-32

JLB

JLB777 · May 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Are you saying that you "hope" to be saved one day (at the Final Judgment), if you endure until the end?

Do you have faith from Jesus Christ for salvation?

JLB

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

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