Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

nolidad · Apr 27, 2019

Hillsage said:
You might want to recheck your above statement. It wasn't Acts 10 but 16 and there is nothing in scriptural context of the jailer's story that even says anything about receiving the HS.

I do agree that Acts is transitional and the church had some real issues which have only grown from then unto today.

Again, I totally agree. I think that the great commission itself is not a 'word mantra' that goes along with 'one water baptism', but is instead the declaration of experiencing the Godhead in three different baptisms. The Father in repentance, the Son in the forgiveness of sin, and the Holy Spirit in the manifestation of supernatural power.

If it isn't proper, then you are not alone, because it happens all the time. I'll go there later and check it, but Honeydo's do call today also.

Everyone is entitled to 'their opinion', but do you have scriptural backing for the above? I believe that the baptism of John was for the forgiveness of sins;

MAR 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

LUK 3:3 and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So, in your opinion, were the sins of these people forgiven or not? If YES, elaborate. If NO, elaborate. I believe they were forgiven, but will withhold my 'elaboration' for the moment.

OK, then explain what 'the keys' are, since they are really a pretty big basis for your position.

Hi hillsage! Boy you have set me to study!

Sorry about putting the wrong chapter. Big arthritic hands and doing this before I leave for workl tends to make mistakes appear!

If the Philippians jailer did not receive the Holy Spirit he had not been saved! Paul in 1 cor. 12:13 states that the spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ- which is salvation!

Johns Baptism did forgive sins and prepared the way for Jews to receive the Messiah!

as for the keys- Peter held the keys of the kingdom! Now we have many powerful and philosophical definitions of what that means, but I don't hold Jesus to be a high mystic! Keys are to open and lock doors! It was to peter that the entrance for people groups were allowed to take place.

It was Peter who opened the door for the Gentiles with Cornelius! Prior to Cornelius we have no record of a Gentile entering the Body of Christ! It was after Peter opened the door for Gentiles to enter the Body, that we see Paul raised up by God.

also remember that many of the Jews that believed in Jesus prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus were not baptized in the spirit at Pentecost! Only those in the upper room were baptized in the spirit into the body of Christ! So Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah had to be told of His resurrection and ascension and receive the Spirit! Now one can debate were they saved prior to receiving the spirit( I do not believe they were), but I also know God would not allow them to perish before entering the Body!

That is why the book of acts one has to be careful! It is preaching the full gospel to scattered Jews, the entering of the Samaritans and gentiles into faith, and the establishing of teh Jewish Church, then the gentile church.

nolidad · Apr 27, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I agree with what you are saying here, except for your position on the baptism with the Holy Spirit (see bold above). And I understand that it is a common Baptist position. But consider this...

Jesus told the disciples to wait for the outpouring (baptism) of the Holy Spirit. Were they not saved? The Apostle Paul (Saul) received the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him. Water baptism followed. Was he not already saved? The believers in Samaria were water baptized but did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them.

None of this squares with your position. Furthermore, the biblical examples of the baptism with the Holy Spirit include manifestations of the Holy Spirit as evidence. Typically tongues or prophecy. This is what was missing in both Samaria and Ephesus. Requiring the laying on of hands. Nothing immediate upon belief.

Therefore, I see the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience to salvation and water baptism.

nolidad · Apr 27, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I agree with what you are saying here, except for your position on the baptism with the Holy Spirit (see bold above). And I understand that it is a common Baptist position. But consider this...

Jesus told the disciples to wait for the outpouring (baptism) of the Holy Spirit. Were they not saved? The Apostle Paul (Saul) received the Holy Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him. Water baptism followed. Was he not already saved? The believers in Samaria were water baptized but did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them.

None of this squares with your position. Furthermore, the biblical examples of the baptism with the Holy Spirit include manifestations of the Holy Spirit as evidence. Typically tongues or prophecy. This is what was missing in both Samaria and Ephesus. Requiring the laying on of hands. Nothing immediate upon belief.

Therefore, I see the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience to salvation and water baptism.

YOu must remember some very oft overlooked things we believers err with here!

When the church was born- it was born with only those in the upper room! Only these folks had received the Spirit. Jews who had accepted Jesus as Messiah but were not in the upper room, did not receive the Spirit. Now we can debate on whether they were saved or not- but if not- God would ensure they received the
spirit before they died. If they were saved- then they would receive the Spirit once it was told them!

This is why
Acts is not a good book to establish doctrine. You had the church being born with just 120 people then the preaching to the Jews and the many people joining the church (in those days water baptism was common the moment one became a proselyte of a belief) Then you have the outreach to Jews not in Israel or in the further sections of Israel. Some had been baptized with Jons baptism and never heard of Jesus by name!

Then the entering in of the gentiles! I like what Paul said in 1 Cor. 1:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

If water baptism was critical for salvation then paul failed much!
But once the gospel went out to peoples who did not have prior access in Israel to believe, once they accepted Christ, they were immediately baptized into the body of Christ!

2 Cor. 5:17-18, also Rom. 8:9 clearly shows if someone does not have the Holyt Spirit- they do not belong to Christ.

So in a summation- Acts shows the time frame that once the Church was born- we see the ingathering of the faithful and their receiving the Spirit. Once the gospel went past the believing Jews to the gentiles and those who had been baptized by John alone- as soon as they received the gospel they were baptized by the
Spirit into the Body! If not then they did not belong to Jesus.

Saint Steven · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
When the church was born- it was born with only those in the upper room!

That must have been a HUGE upper room. Three thousand people were saved and baptized after Peter preached that same day, within a few hours time probably. What were you saying about only 120 being there? And how come Acts chapter two says nothing about an upper room? How does that even work?

I also gave you several examples that fell outside your claims to which you have no specific answers. Then you have the audacity to try to inform me about where "believers err" ???? --- All too obvious.

Furthermore, when the Holy Spirit came on believers (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) in the book of acts there was evidence, typically as either tongues, or prophecy. How does that fit in your view? (it doesn't)

Hillsage · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
Hi hillsage! Boy you have set me to study!

Sorry about putting the wrong chapter. Big arthritic hands and doing this before I leave for workl tends to make mistakes appear!

Ouch, sorry for the hands...I have more of an arthritic brain I think...or not...or maybe...I'm not sure...I guess.

If the Philippians jailer did not receive the Holy Spirit he had not been saved! Paul in 1 cor. 12:13 states that the spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ- which is salvation!

Let's look at that verse closer. First off, I don't See Holy Spirit anywhere in this verse...only Spirit.

1CO 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So does this mean the Spirit did the baptizing? I'd say no. I do believe it is BY one Spirit we become partakers of what? The body of Christ so it's the Spirit of Christ? Or are you saying it's the body of God so it's the Holy Spirit???? That doesn't work for me. IOW I see nothing in this verse to prove your position of the Holy Spirit. BTW there are those here who think I have arthritis of the head too, but I suspect it's just hardheadedness. Either way, you'll have to prove your POV with a different verse.

Johns Baptism did forgive sins and prepared the way for Jews to receive the Messiah!

If John's baptism forgave sins then why did Jesus still have to die. Why not just continue with water baptism?

as for the keys- Peter held the keys of the kingdom! Now we have many powerful and philosophical definitions of what that means, but I don't hold Jesus to be a high mystic! Keys are to open and lock doors! It was to peter that the entrance for people groups were allowed to take place

.
I'm going to lean on scripture for my POV.

MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now you say you're a Baptist, so I'm pretty sure you don't believe you're in the wrong kingdom because you aren't Roman Catholic, right? As for me, I was....born, baptized, raised, wed and then divorced as an RC. But then in 'the church' as a divorcee I was told; "Cant take communion again unless she dies." "Can't get married again, unless she dies" "Be sure to bring your money....til the day you die." Well, at 19 I figured I must have committed some pretty unforgiveable sin, so I decided I'd just tell God to screw himself and I'd go to hell with my friends....and I'd make damn sure I was worthy of being there. But....SURPRISE...4 years later the hound of heaven hunted me down and I got radically born again/SAVED...for the first time. So now I do have a different take on this verse than I was taught before. And the verse 18 which I quoted above...precedes your "Keys" verse 19. So I'd like to hear your take on my verse first....being a Baptist and not a KEY carrying Peter kind of believer....I assume.

It was Peter who opened the door for the Gentiles with Cornelius! Prior to Cornelius we have no record of a Gentile entering the Body of Christ! It was after Peter opened the door for Gentiles to enter the Body, that we see Paul raised up by God.

I disagree, I believe it was God who gave Peter the vision on the roof that made him go. And all he did was preach the gospel. I've seen lots of people hear 'the gospel' and none of them got saved. So we're still stuck brother.

also remember that many of the Jews that believed in Jesus prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus were not baptized in the spirit at Pentecost! Only those in the upper room were baptized in the spirit into the body of Christ! So Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah had to be told of His resurrection and ascension and receive the Spirit! Now one can debate were they saved prior to receiving the spirit( I do not believe they were), but I also know God would not allow them to perish before entering the Body!

This is getting more complicated, now we have more disagreements. But we had to go to the movie and I see Steve will take on your 'upper room' POV. Since that's still fresh from another thread.

Phil W · Apr 27, 2019

Saint Steven said:
As humans, we like to see patterns from which we can gain a stable understanding of something. However this does not work with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is rather unpredictable.
For example, you made some statements about the Holy Spirit but then had to qualify them with an exception (Cornelius). And what about Pentecost? Does that fit your formula? (Nope) Where was the water baptism before the outpouring?

Cornelius was the very first of the Gentiles to be found worthy of eternal life, and his experience in receiving the gift of the holy Ghost was done to really get the attention of the Jews who accompanied Peter.
As for Pentecost...I believe all of Jesus' disciples had previously been water baptized unto repentance with John's baptism.
In fact, Jesus' disciples were also baptizing others before Pentecost. (John 3:21-23,4:1-2)

You also made what I consider to be an erroneous statement about baptism. You have forced your doctrinal understanding onto Peter's words to make it fit. Compare your claims to his actual words. Notice what you have added and omitted.

I'm not sure which word's of Peter you are referring to.
Is it post #427?
If so, I stand by my words.

I tend to look at the book of Acts as being a story of the early church flying by the seat of their pants. They were going with the flow and making the best of it. The manifestations of the Holy Spirit were very unpredictable.
- At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on the 120 without much warning. What happened was unprecedented.
- After the outpouring at Pentecost, 3000 new believers who were water baptized, received the Holy Spirit. (no mention of the laying on of hands)
- No report of any difficulties for the five thousand new believers in Acts chapter four.
- However, the baptized believers in Samaria did not receive the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them. Acts chapter eight.
- At the house of Cornelius the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching. Water baptism followed.
- The newly baptized believers in Ephesus received the Holy Spirit baptism when Paul (not one of the 12) laid hands on them.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) was sent to Saul to lay hands on him for healing and to receive the Holy Spirit.
Do you see a pattern here? Can you make a solid formula that fits all of these examples?
1) Believe
2) Be water baptized
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

The only thing not present in the above 1-5, is the required repentance from sin.
As the gift giving of the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned with either the 3000 or the 5000, shouldn't we conclude that their experience mimicked the initial Pentecost experience?
I can only suppose so.

Phil W · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
Rom 10: 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 4: 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 16:
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set

Acts 8:
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

In all cases- belief came first (which equals salvation) then came the instantaneous baptism in the Spirit, then came water baptism.

I agree with you that belief always comes first, but our actions from that point is what garners our chance for salvation, (determined at the last judgement).
Those actions include...repentance from sin, water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring till the end.
This isn't the total list.
I don't believe that belief equals salvation.
Real belief is step one.

Phil W · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
Everyu time the word baptism appears- it does not automatically mean water baptism. Just like every time the word salvation appears it does not automatically mean eternal salvation. if it did then in timothy Paul said women are saved not by faith in Christ but by childbearing.

True enough.

Phil W · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
Acts 10 showed the jailer recieved the HS first then was baptized in water.

I think you mean Cornelius the centurion...not a jailer.

I also caution against relying on Acts to establish doctrine. Acts is a transitional book where Jews were transitioning out of the law and Gentiles were being saved apart from becoming Jews.

I don't believe anything UNdoctrinal was performed in Acts.

Baptism when it appears does not always mean a water baptism.

Agreed.

I know water baptism is commanded for all believers! but it is an ordinance for believers not unbelievers to become believers.

Agreed.

We are not forgiven sins by immersion, but by faith in Christ. We are baptized in the Spirit at the moment of salvation- that is what causes the new birth.

That idea is countered in Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:3-6.

But as to why Gentiles who received Christ had not yet received the Spirit is simple, Peter held the keys to the kingdom and He had to open the door for Gentiles to receive the Spirit.

You kind of lost me there.
Do you mean the Samaritans who had accepted the message of Christ and had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

As to your allusion of Peter's keys, aren't we all given the keys to salvation? ie, repent of sin, get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and receive from God the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Phil W · Apr 27, 2019

nolidad said:
also remember that many of the Jews that believed in Jesus prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus were not baptized in the spirit at Pentecost! Only those in the upper room were baptized in the spirit into the body of Christ! So Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah had to be told of His resurrection and ascension and receive the Spirit! Now one can debate were they saved prior to receiving the spirit( I do not believe they were), but I also know God would not allow them to perish before entering the Body!

I've got to interject here...
The 'room' where the disciples received the gift of the Holy Spirit isn't the same "upper" room where they chose a replacement for Judas.
At least the verses don't say so specifically.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
The only thing not present in the above 1-5, is the required repentance from sin.
As the gift giving of the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned with either the 3000 or the 5000, shouldn't we conclude that their experience mimicked the initial Pentecost experience?
I can only suppose so.

Sounds like you are making some progress here. Not locked into an order of events.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
I don't believe that belief equals salvation.
Real belief is step one.

That's a can of worms.

If our salvation doesn't rest fully on the finished work of the atonement of Christ on our behalf, how can it be measured? Will we do all the right things to be saved? Can we even agree on what those things might be? Who's list is correct? Are we missing something? Did you do enough? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows) --- It's a vicious circle.

But I have good news. Jesus paid it all.
When he said, "It is finished!", he meant it.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
I don't believe anything UNdoctrinal was performed in Acts.

What doctrine did they have to follow?

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
Cornelius was the very first of the Gentiles to be found worthy of eternal life, and his experience in receiving the gift of the holy Ghost was done to really get the attention of the Jews who accompanied Peter.

How could anyone be "worthy of eternal life"? (bold above) ???
As if it was a reward bestowed upon those who earned it. ?????
I suppose you were referring to this scripture.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
I've got to interject here...
The 'room' where the disciples received the gift of the Holy Spirit isn't the same "upper" room where they chose a replacement for Judas.
At least the verses don't say so specifically.

May or may not be- but that is not important to teh discussion at hand.

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
I think you mean Cornelius the centurion...not a jailer.

I don't believe anything UNdoctrinal was performed in Acts.

Agreed.

Agreed.

That idea is countered in Acts 2:38 and Romans 6:3-6.

You kind of lost me there.
Do you mean the Samaritans who had accepted the message of Christ and had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost?

As to your allusion of Peter's keys, aren't we all given the keys to salvation? ie, repent of sin, get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and receive from God the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Point one---my bad! It was the centurion.

Point 2: Nothing undoctrinal was done- but we cannot formulate doctrine on the basis of acts- the early part of acts is a transitional time

Baptized into Christ is baptized in the Spirit not water. The church for water baptism has a trinitarian formula according to Matt. 28 Every time the word baptize appears it does not mean immersion in water! Romans 6 is spirit baptism.

Acts 2: Once again people who had seen Jesus in the flesh but had not received Him as Messiah!

Peters keys are not an allusion! Only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom! Not the other 11 nor anyone else, nor is there some implied transference of the keys to all believers! No group of people entered until Peter first spoke. Acts 2- the church is born- peter is the first to speak to the Jews!, Cornelius? Peter goes to give Him the gospel.

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Sounds like you are making some progress here. Not locked into an order of events.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. If it was then works are essential. We are commanded to be baptized as believers, but not for salvation, but for discipleship! Some people do not get bsaptized for lengthy periods after their profession of faith. Are you saying they do not have the Spirit and are unsaved!

That goes against Romans 10 and Acts 4, and all of Galatians.

Saint Steven · Apr 28, 2019

nolidad said:
May or may not be- but that is not important to teh discussion at hand.

I think it is important.
All our lives we have been told that the outpouring took place in the upper room.
Now we find no biblical evidence of such.
It think it is well worth the time to iron out a few wrinkles here.
Hopefully others like clean pressed white linen as much as I do. - lol

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Phil W said:
I agree with you that belief always comes first, but our actions from that point is what garners our chance for salvation, (determined at the last judgement).
Those actions include...repentance from sin, water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring till the end.
This isn't the total list.
I don't believe that belief equals salvation.
Real belief is step one.

So then you do not believe that Jesus actually died for all of our sins? You seem to hold that belief in Jesus is our ticket into paradise but that we have to maintain a certain level of good works in order to keep salvation. Am I correct? Is your theology Jesus plus works = Salvation?

nolidad · Apr 28, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I think it is important.
All our lives we have been told that the outpouring took place in the upper room.
Now we find no biblical evidence of such.
It think it is well worth the time to iron out a few wrinkles here.
Hopefully others like clean pressed white linen as much as I do. - lol

I am not worried if it THE upper room or just simply a room. It matters not a whit to me, what matters to me is that in that room- The church was born and people received something brand new from God- the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being made a new creature!

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