Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

BABerean2 · Apr 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
You wrote this in reference to the baptized believers in Samaria.
It's an exception because there is no rule except manmade rules.
None of these examples are the same.

- At the house of Cornelius the Spirit came on the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching. Baptism followed.
- At Pentecost the Spirit came on those 3000 believers who were water baptized. Not at the moment of faith.
- However, the baptized believers in Samaria did not receive the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them. Acts chapter eight. Not at the moment of faith.
- No report of any difficulties for the five thousand new believers in Acts chapter four.
- The newly baptized believers in Ephesus received the Spirit baptism when Paul (not one of the 12) laid hands on them. Not at the moment of faith.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) was sent to Saul to lay hands on him for healing and to receive the Holy Spirit. Not at the moment of faith.

The only thing we know for sure (which you deny) is that the baptism with the Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation. Four of the six examples above were not at the moment of faith.

Do you think Ephesians 1:13 is wrong?

Do you think all of those baptized by John the Baptist were saved?

Was the thief on the cross water baptized?

Was Elizabeth water baptized, when John the Baptist leaped in her womb?

There is nothing in the verses below about water.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Anyone who sees water in this verse is making an assumption, and ignoring that there are two different baptisms in Luke 3:16.)

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Hillsage · Apr 18, 2019

Phil W said:
Sliding scale salvation?
"How saved..."?

If by "Sliding" you mean from spirit to soul to body...then I guess I'd have to say yes....just like bishop Westcott.

"The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England. A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said, "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?" The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face: "My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?" The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her! She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament. He had asked her, using three different tenses of you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."

We are sanctified at the same time we are justified, both by the blood of Christ...applied to us at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death.

You were fully sanctified in spirit but not 'wholly' sanctified in soul or body.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 abstain from every form of evil. (this is written to Christians and is up to you)
23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You may not have anything to do, to be sanctified in spirit as it is justified/saved, but you do in the salvation of your soul/mind.

Another verse written to CHRISTIANS below.
If by "Sliding" you mean the soul;

JAM 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Hillsage · Apr 18, 2019

Forum glitch

Hillsage · Apr 18, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Anyone who sees water in this verse is making an assumption, and ignoring that there are two different baptisms in Luke 3:16.)

.

Notice the punctuation "Repent," comma. "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," end of clause and a , comma (or in some translations even a ; semicolon ). Beginning of next clause "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Period. And all of this is for what salvation..contextually???? Is it for 'missing hell in the hereafter'? Or is it for going 'eternally to heaven'? No....neither.

ACT 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

But what about my ETERNAL SALVATION??? Oh yes, let's not forgot about what Jesus did.

Me personally, I'm not working to go to heaven in the hereafter, Jesus took care of that salvation. I'm working to kick hell out of my soul here and now....to earn rewards WHEN I get to heaven.

Saint Steven · Apr 18, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do you think Ephesians 1:13 is wrong?

What kind of question is that?
That verse is not referring to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
It is in reference to the Spirit that is received at salvation.
Not the subsequent experience of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Did you speak in tongues when you believed? Did you prophesy?

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
How does that apply to infants? In what sense are they believers or partakers?

God gives them the gift of faith when God baptizes them.

BABerean2 · Apr 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
What kind of question is that?
That verse is not referring to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
It is in reference to the Spirit that is received at salvation.
Not the subsequent experience of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Did you speak in tongues when you believed? Did you prophesy?

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Are you a member of the denomination known as "The Church of Christ", which originated with Campbell?

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Phil W · Apr 18, 2019

Hillsage said:
If by "Sliding" you mean from spirit to soul to body...then I guess I'd have to say yes....just like bishop Westcott.

That doesn't agree with scripture, which states..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
Your POV precludes the truth written of above.

You were fully sanctified in spirit but not 'wholly' sanctified in soul or body.

It pains me to think that a man reborn of God's seed isn't sanctified wholly.
Which part of Jesus Christ wasn't sanctified?
As we are now "bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh" we are as sanctified as Christ Jesus was/is.
Made holy, separated, consecrated, atoned for: all describers of the word "sanctify".
To be less would be an indicator of non-repentance.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 abstain from every form of evil. (this is written to Christians and is up to you)

23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You may not have anything to do, to be sanctified in spirit as it is justified/saved, but you do in the salvation of your soul/mind.
Another verse written to CHRISTIANS below.
If by "Sliding" you mean the soul;
JAM 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

You must consider warnings to be accusations.
You describe a hearer, but not a doer.

BABerean2 · Apr 19, 2019

Hillsage said:
Notice the punctuation "Repent," comma. "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," end of clause and a , comma (or in some translations even a ; semicolon ). Beginning of next clause "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Period. And all of this is for what salvation..contextually????

Do we find commas, and semicolons in the original Greek, or do they come from the English translation?

(KJV+) ThenG1161 PeterG4074 saidG5346 untoG4314 them,G846 Repent,G3340 andG2532 be baptizedG907 every oneG1538 of youG5216 inG1909 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 forG1519 the remissionG859 of sins,G266 andG2532 ye shall receiveG2983 theG3588 giftG1431 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost.G4151

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Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
God gives them the gift of faith when God baptizes them.

Faith in what? They have no concept of anything spiritual. (let alone physical) No developed language or cognitive skills beyond cooing and focusing on their mysterious surroundings. Adults struggle to understand faith, infants are... lost.

Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are you a member of the denomination known as "The Church of Christ", which originated with Campbell?

.

No.
Would like to make a disparaging comment about that group?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do we find commas, and semicolons in the original Greek, or do they come from the English translation?

(KJV+) ThenG1161 PeterG4074 saidG5346 untoG4314 them,G846 Repent,G3340 andG2532 be baptizedG907 every oneG1538 of youG5216 inG1909 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 forG1519 the remissionG859 of sins,G266 andG2532 ye shall receiveG2983 theG3588 giftG1431 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost.G4151

.

Seriously? That's your proof?
(KJV+) ThenG1161 PeterG4074 saidG5346 untoG4314 them,G846 Repent,G3340 andG2532 be baptizedG907 every oneG1538 of youG5216 inG1909 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 ChristG5547 forG1519 the remissionG859 of sins,G266 andG2532 ye shall receiveG2983 theG3588 giftG1431 of theG3588 HolyG40 Ghost.G4151

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
There is nothing in the verses below about water.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Anyone who sees water in this verse is making an assumption, and ignoring that there are two different baptisms in Luke 3:16.)

That's ridiculous.
Nothing said about water baptism in these verses either.
What do you make of that?

John 1:28
This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John 3:26
They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

John 4:1
Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John—

John 10:40
Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Do you think all of those baptized by John the Baptist were saved?

Does God condemn the repentant? What's the point of a baptism of repentance if it is of no spiritual effect?

BABerean2 said:
Was the thief on the cross water baptized?

Not after he believed, obviously. Nor was he baptized in the Holy Spirit. The crucifixion was before Pentecost.

BABerean2 said:
Was Elizabeth water baptized, when John the Baptist leaped in her womb?

The son in her womb was the baptizer. She was filled with the Spirit in the same way the OT prophets were. The Spirit to prophesy.

Numbers 11:29
But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake?
I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets
and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Faith in what? They have no concept of anything spiritual. (let alone physical) No developed language or cognitive skills beyond cooing and focusing on their mysterious surroundings. Adults struggle to understand faith, infants are... lost.

Not faith in "what" Steve, faith in "who." Faith in Jesus Christ. You seem to think that intellectual assent to the Gospel is a required part of that. I do not.

BABerean2 · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Does God condemn the repentant? What's the point of a baptism of repentance if it is of no spiritual effect?

Not after he believed, obviously. Nor was he baptized in the Holy Spirit. The crucifixion was before Pentecost.

The son in her womb was the baptizer. She was filled with the Spirit in the same way the OT prophets were. The Spirit to prophesy.

Numbers 11:29
But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake?
I wish that all the Lord’s people were prophets
and that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!”

Your comments above contain contradictory statements.

You say the thief on the cross was not baptized in the Holy Spirit because he died before Pentecost.
However, Zacharias was filled with the Spirit before Pentecost.

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Did the thief on the cross repent of what he had done?
Based on the verse below the answer is... Yes.

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Some are claiming the Holy Spirit was "on" the OT Saints, but not "in" them.
That claim falls apart in the verse below.
How can Zacharias be "filled" with the Holy Spirit, if it was not inside of him?

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be "born again" of the Spirit of God in order to be a part of the kingdom of God.
Christ also told Nicodemus that he was supposed to know this fact.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(Amniotic fluid is mainly water, and is a reference to childbirth.)
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

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Ttalkkugjil · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Chapter 11 is the most impressive section on faith's power in Priscilla's letter, if not in the whole Bible.

Faith that has Christ is mind's firmness, a persuasion concerning the things which God has promised us for the purpose of having us hope upon them. It's a conviction regarding those things which we can't see, which it's impossible for us to grasp.

So faith thus concerns things which are future, though they may have their beginning in this life. It's gifts' hope. It keeps its form, even when it's weak, a taper. It's opposed to doubt.

Faith stands firm in afflictions. Faith overcomes weakness, for it's in persecution's midst that faith proves itself a persuasion of the heart that clings to God’s promises.

Faith's qualities Priscilla now intends to bring out by referring to a number of examples of OT people. For in this lay the people's commendation. It was on the ground of their having faith that the OT's leading people received God's commendation.

BABerean2 · Apr 19, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's ridiculous.
Nothing said about water baptism in these verses either.
What do you make of that?

John 1:28
This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

John 3:26
They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

John 4:1
Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John—

John 10:40
Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,

I make of it that the above are speaking of John's baptism, instead of the baptism of the Spirit.

Are you are denying that there are two types of baptism in the passage below?

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Which baptism comes on those who "believed" in the verse above?

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Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Not faith in "what" Steve, faith in "who." Faith in Jesus Christ. You seem to think that intellectual assent to the Gospel is a required part of that. I do not.

How is it that an infant has faith in Jesus Christ?
A cognitive choice (intellectual assent) is required to make a decision to follow Christ.
To repent (turn away) from sin and turn to God.
Any evidence in an infant that this has taken place?

An infant is in no position to do this. And their parents cannot decide for them any more than Constantine's army were Christians by the Emperor's decision. Was their baptism valid? How is that different from an infant?

Saint Steven · Apr 19, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Your comments above contain contradictory statements.

You say the thief on the cross was not baptized in the Holy Spirit because he died before Pentecost.
However, Zacharias was filled with the Spirit before Pentecost.

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

It only seems contradictory based on your understanding.

The Bible is clear that the baptism with the Holy Spirit was initiated at Pentecost.
The filling that Zacharias had was therefore not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
It was an enduement of power to prophesy. No different than the OT prophets.

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

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