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Is Baptism needed to be saved?

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I know theres a previous thread with the excat same topic but I have webtv, and is therefore handicapped from viewing all the messages and replys that are on that post nor can I reply to it. However I really felt the need to comment on this subject and add in my 2 cents sooo I started this one.

Now First of all I just wanna state that this subject has been posted nearly 100 times at least, and I would truly like to put it to rest with the following....

Baptism is INDEED NEEDED for salvation.
I asked myself this same question but when i read in in the bible it was cleary stated. Not just once but several times.

1. Jesus states " I tell you the truth, if anyone isnt baptised by water and the holy spirit, he will NOT inherit the kingdom of God"

2. It was said in Acts that bapstism is an act of putting to death you former self. It is the act of dying on the cross with Christ. You must die with Christ to be risen with him.

3. So many people are using this same comment about the theives not being baptised and yet were saved. Remember Baptism is an act of crucifying your old former sinful being. The theives were crucified physically with Christ. Therefore meaning they died with him. To be saved you Must die with christ, bapstism is our way of doing so. the theives actually did this.

Now if anyone says that you dont have to be baptised, I strongly suggest that u read the new testament over. Because saying otherwise is simply avoiding and straying away from the truth., and not following the straight and narrow...In the words of a minister, "If you dont believe it, then leave it, but dont argue with it".
 

Crispie

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What about the person who accepts Christ when they are about to die? Like umm, they are stuck in a caved in mine, and they stuck and are about to die. Thats what really gets me, what about the people who cant get baptized when they decide to accept Jesus Christ. This is not valid to argue against baptizing being needed, but its just something to think about I guess.
 
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paxigoth13

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do we take seriously that Jesus saved one of his companions of crucifixion? no, baptism is not necessary to be saved. there may be conditions where people who became saved would be baptised if it was a true encounter (so thus some people 'have' to be baptised but one cannot conjure a universal out of it).

paxigoth = pacigoth recycled
 
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Breetai

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No, baptism is NOT required for salvation. I'm Lutheran and even I believe that.:D

We are commanded to be baptised, but we are baptized AFTER we are believers in Jesus and are ALREADY saved.

If anyone claims to be saved, yet doesn't bother to be baptized, then I would doubt their salvation.
 
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Breetai

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Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
One of the most nagging questions in Christianity is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21, NIV) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38, NIV)? This is an honest question and it needs a competent answer. But, before I tackle this I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.
God Works Covenantally
First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).
If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.
The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).
Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.
If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

What is the Gospel?
It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.
Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.
Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

Let's Suppose...
Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?
Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly.

Baptism Verses
John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.


Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.


1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB).
What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.


Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.


Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage.


Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.


Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.



Conclusion:
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; ***. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?





(taken from carm.org)
 
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Ron21647

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Philo said:
Well, if you want to read a good-sized novel on the subject, I can refer you to "Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation" somewhere a little down the list of topics. 1500+ posts and still going strong!
I read the first few pages of that, but there is no way I am reading 1500+ posts. In the part I did read, someone said that Jesus commanded us to be baptized by water. So, since I have a copy of the KJV on my computer, I did a search in the 4 gospels for the words baptize, baptism, baptist. A few things I found were, quoting John the Baptist at the occassion of the baptism of Jesus, "I baptize with water, but He who comes will baptize with the Holy Ghost and fire".

Jesus also talks about the fact that the disciples may be baptized like He, while referring to the crucifixion. In one of the gospels it specifically states that although Jesus commanded His didciples to baptize the people, He never actually baptized anyone himself.

So, after doing some research (I also looked at what was said on the subject in the rest of the New Testament), I believe that baptism is a public profession of faith in Christ and of your salvation, but the real baptism comes from the Holy Spirit, not from water.

I do not think water baptism is necessary to salvation.

Ron
 
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- DRA -

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paxigoth13 said:
do we take seriously that Jesus saved one of his companions of crucifixion? no, baptism is not necessary to be saved. there may be conditions where people who became saved would be baptised if it was a true encounter (so thus some people 'have' to be baptised but one cannot conjure a universal out of it).

paxigoth = pacigoth recycled

I take the thief on the cross seriously. Serious enough to realize two things:

1.) That the thief lived and died under the law of Moses (see Heb. 9:15-17). Jesus' law or covenant did not go into effect until after He died. Baptism into Christ for the remission of sins later became a requirement under the law of Christ (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 8:35-39 ;10:47-48; 22:16).

2.) Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Matt. 9:1-6)
 
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God_follower

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just to the last post..

1.) Not gonna touch that one, pretty sure it doesnt matter tho

2.) I agree, but who says He lost His power when He died? after He died he gained control of death and everything else.

3.) (my opinion of baptism) - water baptism, not nessisary in the normal sence, but in an obediance sence then yeah its nessecary.
 
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Breetai said:
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

One of the most nagging questions in Christianity is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21, NIV) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38, NIV)? This is an honest question and it needs a competent answer. But, before I tackle this I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.

God Works Covenantally

First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.
If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).
If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.
The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).
Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.
If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

Breetai,

I am breaking up your lengthy post into several sections as I respond to it.

First of all, let me begin my response by saying that you have explained yourself very well. I was able to follow your reasoning process throughout your post. However, there are areas that I believe (Rom. 10:17) you need to re-visit and re-evaluate your thinking about. Here are the areas from this section of your post that I request that you examine once again:

1.) Your quote: "It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5)" does not do justice to that passage in Romans chapter 6. Rather than just looking at verses 3-5, I encourage you to continue reading through the end of the chapter. Overall, in baptism one is baptized into Jesus death (verse 3, 4a) and is raised with Christ from the dead to walk in newness of life (verse 4b,c). This prompts a question: if these blessings are enjoyed in baptism . . . and the text plainly says they are . . . then what is one's condition before baptism? Now, back to the text. One is united with Christ in His death, and His resurrection (verse 5). One is crucified with Christ, so that they might be free from sin (verse 6). One dies and is freed from sin (verse 7). One dies with Christ and also believes that they will live with Him (verse 8). Christ was raised from the dead to die no more (verse 9). He died once, but lives to God (verse 10). Likewise, the one being baptized is dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus (verse 11). This prompts another question: if in baptism one dies to sin and is made alive through Christ, then what is one's condition before baptism? Now, back to the text. Therefore (in light of the previous blessings) the one being baptized should not let sin reign in their life (verse 12) - - rather, they should regard themself "as being alive from the dead" (verse 13 NKJV). Sin no longer has dominion over this person . . . they are not under the law (of Moses), but under grace (verse 14). Verse 15 goes back to to the questions and answer Paul gives in verses 1-2 of this chapter. Verses 16 through verse 22 then discusses the idea of the baptized one no longer being a slave of sin, but rather, a slave of obedience. Instead of the receiving the "wages" due them, God's grace extends eternal life to the one baptized (verse 23).

In reviewing Romans chapter 6, one cannot help but be impressed with what occurs in baptism - - not BEFORE baptism - - not AFTER baptism. Realizing what occurs IN baptism helps us understand why Peter commanded those Jews who believed his sermon in Acts 2:14-36, to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins in verse 38. It also helps us understand how baptism saves us (1 Pet. 3:20-21).

2.) Your quote: "the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27)" prompts one question - - If Gal. 3:27 indeed teaches that one is united with Christ in baptism, then what is one's condition before baptism?

3.) Your quote: "the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16)" prompts a question much like the previous point - - If a persons sins are cleansed in baptism, then wouldn't one still retain their sins before baptism?

4.) Finally, your following quote prompts a similar question: "In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV)." Once again, realizing that in baptism the circumcision occurs that results in the "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh" (NKJV), then we can't help but wonder about this sinful body before baptism - - wouldn't it have been still sinful?

I would like to hear your answers to the questions about your reasoning.

In His service, :bow:
. . . Denny
 
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Breetai said:
What is the Gospel?

It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.

Ever read Matthew chapter 2. Assuming that you have, which aspect about Jesus is true: was he born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, or called a Nazarene? Obviously, all three are true. Rather than just picking one aspect and declaring it to be the sole truth about Jesus, we should not have a problem acknowledging that all three aspects are true.

How is one saved under the law of Christ? Is it solely by the gospel? If so, perhaps, you can explain these passages that also discuss different aspects of salvation:
Matt. 10:22 - faithfulness
Luke 7:50 - faith
Acts 2:21 & Rom. 10:13 - calling on the name of the Lord
Acts 4:12 - the name of Jesus
Acts 11:14 - words
Acts 16:31 - belief
Rom. 5:9 - blood of Christ
Rom. 5:10 - Jesus' life
Rom. 8:24 - hope
Rom. 10:9 - confession and belief
Eph. 2:8-9 - grace through faith
2 Thess. 2:10 - love of truth
Titus 3:5 - mercy
1 Pet. 3:20-21 baptism
Now, why is it necessary to say that only one aspect is involved in salvation under the gospel of Christ? In light of 2 Tim. 3:16a, shouldn't we say that all these aspects of salvation are true - - that is, if we truly believe that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God?

Concerning your quote about the gospel of Christ - - "The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins", I will refer you once again to Romans 6:3-11 that discusses how we can be unified with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection.

Breetai said:
Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Why not go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 1 and start your reading at verse 10. Paul is addressing the division that existed among the church at Corinth when he makes his statements about baptism in verses 13-17. It is in light of the nature of the divisions that are specifically mentioned in verse 12 that Paul states what he does in the following verses. He is simply showing that there is absolutely no justification for the division that was in the church at Corinth. As far as Paul was concerned, Paul makes it clear that he was glad he baptized very few in the church there. Why? So, he couldn't be falsely accused of encouraging division within the church - - it really didn't matter who baptized them - - they were baptized in the name of the Lord, as opposed to being baptized in the name of Paul (verse 13).

Breetai said:
Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

Once again, I am going to suggest that you go back and read ALL of Acts chapter 10. Cornelius and his household are the first Gentiles to have the gospel preached to them. God prepares Peter beforehand to go to these Gentiles e.g. his vision in verses 9-17. The Holy Spirit fell on these Gentiles as Peter preached to them about Jesus (verse 44). Why? God was showing his approval of the Gentiles being extended the gospel of Christ. Peter's acknowledgment of God's approval of the Gentiles receiving the gospel prompts his question about baptism in water in verse 47. Under the circumstances, who could withhold water baptism from these Gentiles? In verse 38, Peter commands the Gentiles to be baptized? Doesn't this harmonize with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and Acts 22:16? Peter explains in Acts 11:1-18 the events of chapter 10. Given the circumstances, it was obvious that "God also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life" (Acts 11:18).

Why not spend some more time with 1 Corinthians chapter 14? Tongues are designed for what group of people (verse 22)? Now, as you ponder the question, think back to Acts chapter 10. Who needed to hear the gospel? And, who needed to be convinced that God was truly extending the gospel to the Gentiles, just as He did to the Jews in Acts chapter 2? Did the Gentiles who needed to hear the gospel hear it? How were were the Jews convinced that God was willing to accept obedience from the Gentiles? In turn, why did Peter COMMAND the Gentiles to be baptized in water (Acts 10:47-48). Why did he command the Jews to be baptized in Acts 2:38?

Was Cornelius unsaved or saved in Acts 10:1-2? Did his prayers reach God? Did he still need to hear the gospel of Christ and obey it? Did he obey the command that Peter gave in 10:48?
 
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Breetai said:
Let's Suppose...

Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?
Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly.

Think about Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2. At the conclusion of Peter's speech, the Jews asked the apostles what they should do (verse 37). Did Peter tell them that all they had to do was believe? What does verse 38 say that he told them. He told them that they needed to repent and be baptized to have their sins remitted. Look carefully at the text. Do you see anywhere in the discussion where Peter gave them the idea that they would be saved even if they didn't repent and be baptized?

Salvation is a free gift. The city of Jericho was also a gift - - it was "given" to Joshua and the Israelites. The story of God's gift and Israel's receiving the gift is found in Joshua chapter 6 (note especially verse 2). As you read that chapter, ask yourself if there were any commands that required obedience in order for Israel to receive the gift. There were. Salvation is indeed a gift (Rom. 6:23 & Eph. 2:8-9). It is a gift offered by grace and accepted with faith. James discusses how faith works (James 2:14-26). Faith prompts one to obey God's commands (note the example of Abraham in James 2:21-24). God has commands that must be met to receive salvation e.g. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16. The one who has the faith that pleases God is the one that obey the commands that are given to receive the "gift" of God - - just as the Israelites did in Joshua chapter 6.

Your quote, "Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation" needs examination. Let's see what, if anything, is required for salvation. In response to the Jews' question in Acts 2:37, did Peter tell them in verse 38 that they didn't have to do anything . . . or did he tell them to repent and be baptized? Likewise, in response to the jailor's question in Acts 16:30, did Paul and Silas say that they didn't have to do anything . . . or did he tell them that they had to believe on the Lord (verse 31)? They preached the word in verse 32. Did the jailor believe the word? Verse 33 says that "immediately he [the jailor] and his family were baptized. Note Mark 16:16. Jesus coupled faith with baptism. Isn't that what we see in this example of conversion?
 
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Breetai said:
Baptism Verses

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.

It is true that the baptism of Christ wasn't instituted until Acts 2:38 (see Heb. 9:15-17). The idea of being "born again" is detailed in Rom. 6:3-11. It occurs in baptism - - the baptism in water (see Acts 8:35-39). Jesus stated requirements for entering the kingdom in John 3:3-5, but the requirements didn't go into effect until after He died and established his will/testament.

I am glad to see you discern that there is a difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Christ (Acts 18:24-19:5).

Your quote: "The water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process", needs more thought. Hadn't all those people there experienced the natural birth process? They sure had. Jesus is pointing out that they must be born again. Not physically, but spiritually. This is accomplished in baptism (Rom. 6:3-11). Just because one is born physically doesn't mean that they have been born again.
 
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Breetai said:
Baptism Verses

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.

I can see why this verse is tough for you. You realize that truth will harmonize, and passage seems to say that baptism is necessary to have one's sins taken away.

However, I don't believe that rearranging a passage to offer a different meaning is the way to seek this harmony. It seems that you assume that the meaning of Acts 2:38 is the one that cannot mean what it says. What about the meaning of the passage(s) that you are comparing that verse to? Couldn't your understanding of the other passages be wrong? Let me give you an example of what I mean. I know that many people look at John 3:16 and determine that it promotes salvation by faith only. While I agree the passage promotes faith, I don't see the words "faith only" in the text. However, many read these words into the text - - and then use this understanding to dismiss passages that require other things for initial salvation e.g. repentance (Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38), confession (Matt. 10:32-33; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:37), and baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16). I believe that folks should go back to John 3:16 and better understand what is meant by "faith." It is more than a mental consent or lip service to the Lord. It involves doing what He says (see Matt. 7:21-23).

Look again at Acts 2:38. It clearly says that both repentance and (a coordinating conjunction that connects two or more equal parts) baptism are necessary for the remission of sins. It may be tough for you to accept, but this is what the passage says. Are there other passages that you would also rearrange to change the meaning of?
 
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Breetai said:
Baptism Verses

1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB).
What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.

While this is the only verse that specifically says that baptism saves, this is not the only passage that teaches that baptism saves us. Consider Acts 2:38. Repentance and baptism are commanded for the remission of sins. 3,000 Jews obeyed the command (verse 41). The Lord then added those who were being saved to the church (verse 47). It seems that having one's sins taken away is necessary for salvation. In fact, it should be obvious that when one's sins are taken away, salvation results.

1 Peter 3:21 plainly declares that baptism saves. How? Verse 20 tells us. The NKJV says, "Eight souls, were saved through water [emphasis mine]. Rather than accepting what the passage says, you attempt to explain how the water didn't save them, rather it was the ark. But the passage points out that water saved those on the ark. It is pointed out for a reason. It was to be a type or shadow of how baptism saves folks today under the gospel of Christ. How does baptism save? Not by "the removal of the filth of the flesh" (by washing the dirt from the body), but by "the answer of a good conscience (by taking away sins).
 
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Breetai said:
Baptism Verses

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.

Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage.

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.

Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.

Concerning Acts 22:16. Once again, you have attempted to use other passages to undermine what this passage says. Why would Ananias tell Saul to arise, be baptized, and wash away his sins unless his sins were still with him? Consider Acts 9:9-11. Saul spent time in prayer to God during the three days that he was blinded, yet his sins still weren't taken away. Obviously, calling on the name of the Lord suggests more than just prayer, it suggests doing those things that were required for salvation. Paul is told what he lacked in Acts 22:16. He was told to get up and be baptized to have his sins washed away. Calling on the name of the Lord is linked to obedience to His will.

Rom. 6:3-11 describes the blessings that take during baptism. It is especially worth noting that these passages describe what occurs DURING baptism, not BEFORE baptism, not AFTER baptism.

You do not seem to see any possible connection between the "washing of regeneration" of Titus 3:5 and baptism. I submit Col. 2:12-13 for your consideration. This is a concise description of the more detailed account in Rom. 6:3-11. The washing of regeneration is a synonymous term with being "born again" in John 3:3-5.

Gal. 3:27 indeed speaks of the "believer's union with Christ." If that union occurs during baptism, then what one's condition before baptism. The inference is that one is still separate from Christ before baptism. Gal. 3:27 declares that baptism puts one "into" Christ. Note Eph. 1:3. All spiritual blessings are in Christ . . . including redemption through his blood (Eph. 1:7). Realizing what these passages teach - - baptism puts one into Christ where all spiritual blessings can be enjoyed, including redemption through Jesus' blood - - enables one to see the connection between baptism and the blood of Christ. Understanding this connection helps us understand how baptism is involved in the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), how it washes away our sins (Acts 22:16), and how it saves us (1 Pet. 3:20-21).
 
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Breetai said:
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?


Breetai,

I responded to your lengthy post on page 1 of this thread . . . see posts #14-18 on this page.

You have not responded, but now I see that Qoheleth is using part of your post on the thread, "Is baptism necessary to be saved?"

Do you have a response?

. . . DRA
 
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