Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God,[WHAT THIS] that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

arguing with God word again ................aggieo3

evanglist said i agree 100% amen

NOT my words but God's

god's word so good

titus 3:5

 

[evangelist]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God,[WHAT THIS] that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

arguing with God word again ................aggieo3



NOT my words but God's

god's word so good

titus 3:5

Keep up the good work he might get free at last .

God Bless you
Shalom

 

[Colabomb]

You claim we are not reading Scripture. We are claiming the same of you.

Read Acts 2:38

Read Matt 16:16

 

[aggie03]

arguing with God word again ................aggieo3

I'm not arguing with the word of God, a brethren, it's just that you're not considering the SUM of what God's word teaches.

It's possible to prove almost anything that one wants to by ripping the Scriptures apart piecemeal and not considering them as a whole. We have to understand the verse that you've quoted within the context of the passage, then the letter, then the rest of the Scriptures. We must remember that only the SUM of God's word teaches TRUTH.

Let’s look again at the verse that you’ve quoted and consider its context:

John 6:22-40 ASV

On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone (23) (howbeit there came boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): (24) when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. (25) And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? (26) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. (27) Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. (28) They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (30) They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? (31) Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. (32) Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. (33) For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (34) They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. (35) Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (36) But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. (37) All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first blue section is setting up the scenario in which the Jews once again find Jesus and begin to speak with Him. They take boats across the sea to Capernaum. Eventually they find Jesus on the other side and they ask how He got there. Jesus, capable of seeing and knowing their hearts, replied by telling them that they only sought after Him because He had given them bread to eat (v. 26 – start of orange).

This next section, which I have bolded, in the orange is very important for our discussion because it sets up the context of verse 29. Jesus tells them not to work for the bread which perishes, but “…for the food that abideth unto eternal life”. Who is to work for it? Does it say God should work for it? NO! Jesus tells THEM, meaning the Jews, to WORK for the bread that abideth unto eternal life.

Look very carefully at the next verse (verse 28). It starts out by saying, “They said therefore unto Him”. This means that they are about to ask Jesus a question because of what He just told them. This means that what He said impacted them or affected what they are about to ask. So what do they ask?

”What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

There are two things that are very important for us to note here. They understand that they are going to be the ones who are doing something. Jesus never tells them that God is going to make them do anything. This is why they ask what they must do.

Also, in this verse we have defined for us what is meant by “works of God”. These are not things that God is going to do, because the men are asking how they will work them. If “works of God” meant things that God was going to do, Jesus would have told them that there is nothing they can do because it is God who will do all the work. However, we only have to read on to the next verse to find out that this isn’t what happens.

Jesus tells them that there is something that they must do. Jesus tells them that the work of God, that is something that is commanded by, or ordained by God, is that they believe on the one whom He has sent. This is Jesus telling the people that they must believe. This is a work. This is something that they must do, not something that God makes them do.

In light of this, the things that have been previously stated about John 3 still stand. John 3:3 says that we must be born again. John 3:5 defines how God has ordained that we will be born again.


John 3:3 ==> Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 ==> Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!


Jesus himself defines this new birth – it is to be of water and the spirit! This is what Christ has said, a brethren. As you are so fond of saying, you’re not arguing with me, my friend, you are arguing against the word of God

 

[aggie03]

aggie03


you still haven`t answered the yes or no answer.

I answered it a long time ago

yes _____

or
no____

The problem that we're having here is that you're asking me a yes or no question where there are about a thousand different possible definitions involved - and it's really not even a yes or no answer because it's all contingent on one thing: the grace of God. The question then becomes 'what is necessary to receive God's grace?' That's really what we're talking about here.

So, I look forward to your answers to the posts that I made, well, I guess several pages ago now. And you don't have to answer yes or no

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

romans 4:5..... But to him that believeth his faith is counted for righteousness....

this verse talks about us being righteous...but according to romans 3:10 we aren't
so what happened?

as soon as we believed the HS put us into Christ [1 cor 12:13] thus we are reckon to be righteous not for we have done but what are Lord Christ Jesus has done!!!!!

for aggieo3 and florida college esspecailly

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I'm not arguing with the word of God, a brethren, it's just that you're not considering the SUM of what God's word teaches.

It's possible to prove almost anything that one wants to by ripping the Scriptures apart piecemeal and not considering them as a whole. We have to understand the verse that you've quoted within the context of the passage, then the letter, then the rest of the Scriptures. We must remember that only the SUM of God's word teaches TRUTH.

Let’s look again at the verse that you’ve quoted and consider its context:

John 6:22-40 ASV

On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone (23) (howbeit there came boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): (24) when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. (25) And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? (26) Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. (27) Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. (28) They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (30) They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? (31) Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. (32) Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. (33) For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (34) They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. (35) Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (36) But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. (37) All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first blue section is setting up the scenario in which the Jews once again find Jesus and begin to speak with Him. They take boats across the sea to Capernaum. Eventually they find Jesus on the other side and they ask how He got there. Jesus, capable of seeing and knowing their hearts, replied by telling them that they only sought after Him because He had given them bread to eat (v. 26 – start of orange).

This next section, which I have bolded, in the orange is very important for our discussion because it sets up the context of verse 29. Jesus tells them not to work for the bread which perishes, but “…for the food that abideth unto eternal life”. Who is to work for it? Does it say God should work for it? NO! Jesus tells THEM, meaning the Jews, to WORK for the bread that abideth unto eternal life.

Look very carefully at the next verse (verse 28). It starts out by saying, “They said therefore unto Him”. This means that they are about to ask Jesus a question because of what He just told them. This means that what He said impacted them or affected what they are about to ask. So what do they ask?

”What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

There are two things that are very important for us to note here. They understand that they are going to be the ones who are doing something. Jesus never tells them that God is going to make them do anything. This is why they ask what they must do.

Also, in this verse we have defined for us what is meant by “works of God”. These are not things that God is going to do, because the men are asking how they will work them. If “works of God” meant things that God was going to do, Jesus would have told them that there is nothing they can do because it is God who will do all the work. However, we only have to read on to the next verse to find out that this isn’t what happens.

Jesus tells them that there is something that they must do. Jesus tells them that the work of God, that is something that is commanded by, or ordained by God, is that they believe on the one whom He has sent. This is Jesus telling the people that they must believe. This is a work. This is something that they must do, not something that God makes them do.

In light of this, the things that have been previously stated about John 3 still stand. John 3:3 says that we must be born again. John 3:5 defines how God has ordained that we will be born again.


John 3:3 ==> Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 ==> Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!


Jesus himself defines this new birth – it is to be of water and the spirit! This is what Christ has said, a brethren. As you are so fond of saying, you’re not arguing with me, my friend, you are arguing against the word of God

where does it say that we work?

what you are trying to put in there is not there... nor is it consistant with other scriptures

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began not my words but God's

or titus 3:5, eph 2:2-9, or john 6:64

us doing God work is after we are saved not the other way around and thus it is God working thu us since he lives inside of us...

 

[aggie03]

where does it say that we work?

what you are trying to put in there is not there... nor is it consistant with other scriptures

Jesus is the one who said it. Put aside all of your presuppositions and read what the passage says within its context. It is our choice whether or not we believe. It is something we must do.

Why don't you show me from the passage that I've quoted where I've misunderstood it? Maybe that would help me out

Oh, and I believe it to be thuroughly consistent with what the SUM of God's word teaches. Remember, a brethren, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the word of God

**Edit**

The entire point of my responding to what you said was dealing with the passage from John 3. I really don't want to deal with Calvinism in this thread, that's off topic. If you want to talk about Calvinism, we can start a different thread for that . Let me know if you want to.

 

[evangelist]

[/font][/size]

I answered it a long time ago


The problem that we're having here is that you're asking me a yes or no question where there are about a thousand different possible definitions involved - and it's really not even a yes or no answer because it's all contingent on one thing: the grace of God. The question then becomes 'what is necessary to receive God's grace?' That's really what we're talking about here.

So, I look forward to your answers to the posts that I made, well, I guess several pages ago now. And you don't have to answer yes or no

Then if you don`t want to give me a no or yes answer and you only can beat around the bush then tell me what grace mean to you.

 

[Jephthah]

Isn't this supposed to be a thread about baptism? There's a whole lot of talking, but none of it's about baptism...I may be new here, but I can tell when a thread has left the tracks.

Isn't 1 Peter 3:21 clear enough?

 

[evangelist]

aggie03

Just out of curiosity, why were you baptized?

Because one church said I must be baptized like you believe and that was the church of Christ, and the other times it was because my friend got baptized and he ask me to join him and the third time I got baptized for real as a testimony in my pentecostal Charismatic church.
But first I went through a three month course before baptism to really know why I am getting baptized, and the pators teaching that couse wanted to see first are we really saved before the ritual.

So the answer to your question “is it the outside or the inside that matters?”, in short, is that they both matter.

The the key to eternal life is when the inside is correct and repented, and accepted the blood of Jesus and the inside heart is renewed in Christ.

We cam dress up a gift package and put a poison snake in the gift wraped box, and it look good on the outside , but when you open the box you are in a deadly surprise, get my point?

I can study and read the Scriptures which are inspired by God. By reading these I can know everything that God wants me to know and understand all things that are necessary for me to be complete and furnished completely unto every good work

Do you use the Holy Spirit to guide or just logics and religious teacvhing maybe from you church or family.

BTW , what church do you attend???


God Bless

 

[its-me-again-777]

Isn't this supposed to be a thread about baptism? There's a whole lot of talking, but none of it's about baptism...I may be new here, but I can tell when a thread has left the tracks.

Isn't 1 Peter 3:21 clear enough?

Please give scripture not just reference..

OK on subject?


I have a question. I think I allready know the answer but I will ask any way.

What is the difference between water baptism and spirit baptism?

And in those passages where the Bible seemingly says baptism is neccasary for salvation. How do you know it is not talking about Spiritual baptism?



Praise the name of jesus

 

[Colabomb]

Please give scripture not just reference..

OK on subject?


I have a question. I think I allready know the answer but I will ask any way.

What is the difference between water baptism and spirit baptism?

And in those passages where the Bible seemingly says baptism is neccasary for salvation. How do you know it is not talking about Spiritual baptism?



Praise the name of jesus

Because Baptism of the Holy Ghost is something that God does, not us.

In Acts 2:38 Peter was Commanding MEN to do something. We cannot Baptize ourselves in the Spirit, Only God can Baptize us in the Spirit.

The Baptism of Acts 2:38 is obviously of Water.

 

[Jephthah]

I like that answer colabomb

777: where do you consider places in the bible where baptism of the spirit has occurre?

 

[evangelist]

Because Baptism of the Holy Ghost is something that God does, not us.

In Acts 2:38 Peter was Commanding MEN to do something. We cannot Baptize ourselves in the Spirit, Only God can Baptize us in the Spirit.

The Baptism of Acts 2:38 is obviously of Water.

Wasn`t acts about the the tarry of the Holy Spirit and that people can recieve the new baptism of the Spirit???

God Bless

 

[evangelist]

Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

does any one think John baptism is the key to salvation?

God Bless

 

[Jephthah]

Wasn`t acts about the the tarry of the Holy Spirit and that people can recieve the new baptism of the Spirit???

God Bless

The apostles were told to tarry...otherwise you'd have to go wait in Jerusalem till you received the baptism of the spirit...

That has nothing to do with us, really, other than that we need to understand it.

 

[Jephthah]

Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

does any one think John baptism is the key to salvation?

God Bless

The baptism that Christ commands in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19 is different then John's. John's was for repentance. That one Christ commanded is for remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are never commanded, as Christians, to take part in John's baptism.

 

[its-me-again-777]

I like that answer colabomb

777: where do you consider places in the bible where baptism of the spirit has occurre?

I believe when someone repents believeing the Gospel. God washes away there sin thru jesus's blood and the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at that time.

Basicially bornagain of the Spirit, regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and Spiritual baptism all happen at the time of salvation.

Water Baptism saves no one. In a dry sinner on your way tp hell. Out a wet sinner on your way to hell.

 

[its-me-again-777]

The baptism that Christ commands in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19 is different then John's. John's was for repentance. That one Christ commanded is for remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are never commanded, as Christians, to take part in John's baptism.

The book of acts is histotical not authoritative like the epistles.

HUGE DIFFERENCE


1st corinthians 1:17 + 18

"[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.'