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You missed the main point what I was saying and that is I am poiting out that we it is not the commandment or rules, and duty or works that make us a member of the Army as you claim we must do commandment and obedience first to become something.cbk said:I'll address your other posts when my work allows me to study it deeper.
But, in regards to the army, BEFORE you took the oath YOU HEARD about the army and you then had the desire to JOIN the army. This is no different than when you first HEARD about JESUS and had the desire to JOIN Jesus. No different.
This oath you took to join the army involved you going to a specific place at a specific time, did it not?? Or, did they come to your house? Christ Jesus has commanded us to be baptized by water; this is the place. The time is open; the time is now. The oath you swore to the army was the binding of a covenant between you and the army. Likewise, the covenant between you and God through water baptism is similar, although I do not think it wise to build arguements around such instances. But, since you brought it up, I will make such a comparison.
In reference to this, does Romans 6 mean anything to you?? What is it, if not the acceptance of a covenant between you and God, your new commander in chief?
I'm a little confused with your wording? However, I was wondering, if I wanted to join the Army, in my heart, and then made a proclamation to my friends that I have done so, and then jumped the fence to the barracks without doing so in the proper way, what would happen to me at role call in the morning? Would the Sarge be happy? Or would he kick my crack, thus putting a frown on my face?evangelist said:You missed the main point what I was saying and that is I am poiting out that we it is not the commandment or rules, and duty or works that make us a member of the Army as you claim we must do commandment and obedience first to become something.
I used this Army anology because the principle of joining is the same as what i PREACH LIKE USING OUR MOUTH AND RECIEVING THE OFFER TO JOIN.
dO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW??
God Bless
You are right , because people who are decieved take a long time to be free.xtxArchxAngelxtx said:this has to be the longest thread on the site.
evangelist said:Hello cbk
First of all I never said also that you said every scripture that list baptism deals with water this is only my own asumption how how I feef you see the word baptism or anything leading to water or getting wet and etc,.
It was really a question do you think this?
You said you don`t do like other and interpretate the scripture to water baptism so tell me How do you know wht for sure is water baptism or spritual baptism or the water of the word of God which is the bible sometimes know as the bread even though we don`t eat the bible literally .
Let me ask those question again to you so we can understand each other better.
If the blood of Jesus made me righteous , and gives me the confidence to heaven gates already why A extra help of a water baptism????
Do righteous people go to Heaven cbk??
Do you know that we draw near to God by faith not by water I hope you know this also??
Mark 16 is about believing
Are believers condemned and set to hell??
Does the verse say those who are not baptized will be condemned??
How many times must I repent??
How many time do I use my faith in my repentance???
Is water baptism an outward work or an inward work???
Does water baptism have anything to do with the heart and does it give us that new heart???
Let me leave you with these few questions to start off.
I hope to hear from you very soon .
God Bless
Shalom
Evangelist C.Moore
cbk said:I'm a little confused with your wording? However, I was wondering, if I wanted to join the Army, in my heart, and then made a proclamation to my friends that I have done so, and then jumped the fence to the barracks without doing so in the proper way, what would happen to me at role call in the morning? Would the Sarge be happy? Or would he kick my crack, thus putting a frown on my face?
This is my point. We are told the way. We are shown the way. Others walked the way. Why are we different, today?
I appreciate your patience and love, evangelist.evangelist said:You are right , because people who are decieved take a long time to be free.
Some people still believe the world is flat, but again it is hard to tconvince them they are decieved so that why thet don't agree.
This is why I need patience and love to help cbk and other to be find the truth and spread the will of God and not a decieved gospel of getting wet and doing a great battle to try to keep the commandments and laws to get brownie points to heaven.
The truth will set the captive free, some sooner some very late.
God Bless
cbk said:I appreciate your patience and love, evangelist.
Do you not see in Romans 6 and Romans 7, that we are to die to the covenant that we are born into? And this is not done, solely, by a proclamation, but by submitting to the Will of God through baptism of water?
You were born into and had formed a covenant (legal in the eyes of God) with death and were under the realm of Satan. Through Christ's blood, the world has the opportunity to be free from this bond by dying to it. This death takes place, not by proclamation, alone... But, through the gift of water baptism for those with the desires expressed in Romans 6 and 7.
Your are quoting a man stating that faith accompanied BY water baptism saves you? Halleluiah! I knew you would come around. I couldn't agree more that water ALONE does not save you, but water is the faithful acceptance of God's gift of grace to bring one INTO a NEW LIFE IN CHRIST! And because of this faith and acceptance through baptism, we can have confidence that God will be faithful in his promises to those who do so.evangelist said:salvation (Rom 6:4,5; Col 2:12-13; Gal 3:27). Mjord states exactly this (pg. 25): "Because baptism is a means of grace, it confers the sure mercies of Jesus Christ to those who have faith. Then all that is associated with baptism belongs to the believer." Mjord argues that I Peter 3:21 is an example of this: "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a clear conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Mjord states (pg. 18), "Peter is saying that baptism saves you when you have a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus. One can have a clear conscience through Christ only when one believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord."
Paul also connected the necessity of water baptism with salvation in Romans 6. In verses 3 and 4 he wrote, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life." Paul's readers would have understood this to be a reference to water baptism. They would think about the day they were baptized (and came to know Christ) and were given new life from their baptism in water. They wouldn't think that being immersed in water alone brought salvation but that being baptized accompanied by faith brought them into new life in Christ.
God Bless
cbk said:Your are quoting a man stating that faith accompanied BY water baptism saves you? Halleluiah! I knew you would come around. I couldn't agree more that water ALONE does not save you, but water is the faithful acceptance of God's gift of grace to bring one INTO a NEW LIFE IN CHRIST! And because of this faith and acceptance through baptism, we can have confidence that God will be faithful in his promises to those who do so.
Was this posted to convey what you think I believe? Or is this what YOU believe?
cbk said:Evangelist, the following is a repost. I would appreciate your comments, and comments from others, as well.
Some points to consider…
Centuries before Christ Jesus provided a way for man to escape the eternal judgement, Moses walked the face of the earth. Centuries before God provided a way for us, the slaves of sin, to break the chains of sin and death, God provided a way for the slaves of Egypt to break their chains of bondage.
My dear friends, we, in many ways, are living the lives of the slaves of Egypt. As a matter of fact, I assuredly say that the happenings WITHIN Egypt were a divine foreshadowing of the reality that we live in our walk upon this earth. That, in sense, the two are one.
As the slaves were in the chains of Pharoah, we were in chains of sin and death. As they hoped for a deliverer, we hoped for a deliverer. As they were persecuted and had suffered under the sting of Pharoah’s whip, we, too, have been persecuted and have suffered under the sting of Satan’s whip. And, as God provided them a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Pharoah and his peoples, we have also been provided a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Satan and his peoples.
For who can forget the period just before the last plague was poured upon the land of Egypt?
Did not God bring provide salvation to those who sought his protection – those waiting that great and terrible night when the angel of death brought forth judgement? And has not God provided salvation to those of us who seek His protection – those waiting that great and terrible day when judgement will once again be brought forth?
Did not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those who were obedient to his simple decrees -- as told to us through Moses? And will not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those of us who are obedient to his simple decrees – as told to us through the apostles?
Recall in the land of Egypt, God’s plan of salvation.This was the story of Egypt. Freedom through the blood of a sacrifice! No different than what we, on both sides of this argument, believe in regards to ourselves. For, like them, we are living in the hopes that this same plan of salvation will hold true to us.
- In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His would be set free!
- In accordance to God’s plan, sacrifice was to be made.
- In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice would protect His people.
- In accordance to God’s plan, the blood of this sacrifice DID protect His people.
- In accordance to God’s plan, those who were His WERE set free.
But, in looking at this foreshadowing of redemption, we must not forget some very important details concerning the happenings within the land of Egypt. Yes, we can all agree on the fact that it was GOD who saved the slaves from bondage. And, we can also agree on the fact that these events took place as written in scripture. But, where we seem to be in disagreement is with this: What is God’s nature in regards to his plans and what are his expectations of those who desire His protection?
God is a God who had a plan for the slaves in Egypt. Within this plan, God, by his OWN accord, set forth requirements that would give protection to those who had the desire.
Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, made the sacrifice? Was it God or man?
Who, according to God’s plan of salvation, put the blood upon the doors? Was it God or man?
These actions, we contend, were performed by man. These actions by man, we contend, were part of God’s divine plan. These actions, we contend, were essential requirements that HAD to be performed, in accordance to God’s plan.
So, here we have a picture of how God presents his gift – the gift of salvation. A protecting sacrifice is made available. To those who believed, the offering was made available. And to those who actively applied the blood, in accordance to God’s plan, protection was given.
Faith, belief, and action. When combined, by God’s grace, they led to salvation.
Is this any different than those of us today? Certainly not to those of us who understand water baptism for what it is! That it is part of God’s plan of salvation for those who desire to escape the coming wrath.
It is true, that God has provided for us an easy plan to escape the bonds of sin and death. He has done this by:Is this APPLICATION done by God’s own hands? Or has he, in accordance to his plan, presented us with the opportunity to either accept or reject HIS gift WITH our own hands? Is His gift MADE AVAILABLE to us to either accept or reject? Or it is forced upon us? I believe the gift is made available to us, for, if it were forced upon us, then it WOULD NOT be a gift -- it would be bondage.
- providing the ENTIRE WORLD with an unblemished Lamb which WE killed on a cross many years ago. This killing, this sacrifice, was not done in a spiritual sense, but in a fleshly sense (of this take note)! The same, physical type of sacrifice, that was performed in the land of Egypt many years before. The blood was spilled. The blood was made available.
- Offering the ENTIRE WORLD the opportunity to be protected by this blood by actively applying the blood to our shelters. Not the shelters of wood and brick, but to the shelters of our souls – our physical bodies.
Looking back at the slaves in Egypt, we can deduce that not every household HAD TO obey God in this matter. And not every household HAD TO spread blood upon their doors in accordance to God’s plan, the gift of salvation that came through a sacrifice and an application. They had the freedom to do as they desired – a freedom of choice that GOD had given to them. Think, did they have the freedom to IGNORE applying the blood and wait through the night? Did they not have the freedom to IMAGINE that they were protected by the sacrifice without lifting an active hand to apply the blood to their structures? Yes, they had this freedom. God gave them the freedom to either accept his plan (which included activity on their parts) OR ignore his plan.
Today is no different. God has given presented us his gift and plan of salvation, and, yes, it includes that we actively accept his gift of salvation. Not MY gift of salvation, but his gift. Not MY plan of salvation, but His plan. And there is nothing that I can do to take the focus off of the fact that it is GOD who provides for us the plan. And there are NO actions that I do within the framework of this plan that can turn its meaning around to where it is I who am bringing salvation upon myself.
Therefore, in the end, when I accept his gift of salvation by actively applying the blood/death of the sacrificed lamb to my body through water baptism, it is not I who am doing a WORK to earn salvation -- it is I who am ACCEPTING the gift, that through God's grace, is made available to me.
Rocinante said:If your heart is for the Way of Jesus, you will live a life of love and you'll be just fine. You don't even have to officially hear about Jesus, just know him in your heart.
Baptism was invented by the early church to help control people by denying them sacraments if they failed to support the church in its more nefarious moments.
But How does a person know Jesus??
How does he put his heart and faith and truth in Christ?
What about the baptism John did, was that also an invention from the early church, and a sacrifice ritual?
Cbk
My dear friends, we, in many ways, are living the lives of the slaves of Egypt. As a matter of fact, I assuredly say that the happenings WITHIN Egypt were a divine foreshadowing of the reality that we live in our walk upon this earth. That, in sense, the two are one.
Quote EvangelistAs the slaves were in the chains of Pharoah, we were in chains of sin and death. As they hoped for a deliverer, we hoped for a deliverer. As they were persecuted and had suffered under the sting of Pharoah’s whip, we, too, have been persecuted and have suffered under the sting of Satan’s whip. And, as God provided them a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Pharoah and his peoples, we have also been provided a way to ESCAPE the coming wrath upon Satan and his peoples.
For who can forget the period just before the last plague was poured upon the land of Egypt?
Did not God bring provide salvation to those who sought his protection – those waiting that great and terrible night when the angel of death brought forth judgement? And has not God provided salvation to those of us who seek His protection – those waiting that great and terrible day when judgement will once again be brought forth?
Did not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those who were obedient to his simple decrees -- as told to us through Moses? And will not God, through his love and mercy and grace, fulfill his promise to those of us who are obedient to his simple decrees – as told to us through the apostles?
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