Is baptism necessary to be saved?

evangelist · Sep 10, 2003

western kentucky
Is baptism a ritual religious work ???

Yes i agree with using other scripture , but I was explaining to take them one at a time under the microscope for we both can examine them and the first was with Mark 16.

Now if we are finished with Mark let jump to another harmonized scripture, no problem praise God

BTW , you did see where I said about in the love walk we need to study the bible just don`t read it like a comic book or any other book.

God Bless

evangelist · Sep 10, 2003

Aaron11 said:
Evange,

He has a point in the fact that the baptisms that we read of in the bible seemed to be at the beginning of a Christians walk. It seems to be at the time of repentance from the worldly life. It makes sense to me that when someone decides to die to themselves totally, that they will be baptized. I am not arguing that baptism saves you, but I am saying that it sure seems like something that people should do earlier than later.

You might have a point there, and I praise God that you know about the right gospel that water baptism doesn`t save us.

But what happen when you are a new born christian and there is a waiting less to get baptized because the church only has 30.000 members and every three month they have time to baptize only 600, so you might have to wait a while even though the people hearts are willing, and I think that counts the most for God , but not for man.

God Bless

evangelist · Sep 10, 2003

Aaron11

My church has a water baptism every three to four month because we just don`t dunk people in water the understanding why they are getting baptize so we teach them a siminar that take three month to teach and we can see if the people are serious about there baptism , and if they are saved for real, and we watch there fruits.

I thought I should mention this, and some churches 6 month to make sure or aone a year baptism.

God Bless

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I think you guys are beating the teens...

They are trying to get a 1000 posts in one thread...

Are you still gainsaying? These kinds of comments serve no purpose but to distract from profitable study.

"All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." (Rom. 10:21)

"Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord." (Ac. 14:3)

"there had been much disputing" (Ac. 15:7)

You don't think it does any good to discuss our differences. But why did God, Jesus, and the apostles spend much time reasoning with people that differed with them? Two things: Patience, and love for their souls.

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

evangelist said:
My church has a water baptism every three to four month because we just don`t dunk people in water the understanding why they are getting baptize so we teach them a siminar that take three month to teach and we can see if the people are serious about there baptism , and if they are saved for real, and we watch there fruits.

But the New Testament church baptized them "the same our of the night" (Ac. 16:33)

The Bible: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Ac. 22:16)

Your Church: "And now why hurriest thou? Just wait 3 or 4 months, becuase your sins are already washed away."

That's your church vs. the Bible

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

evangelist said:
You might have a point there, and I praise God that you know about the right gospel that water baptism doesn`t save us.

But what happen when you are a new born christian and there is a waiting less to get baptized because the church only has 30.000 members and every three month they have time to baptize only 600, so you might have to wait a while even though the people hearts are willing, and I think that counts the most for God , but not for man.

God Bless

In Acts 2, they're were 3000 souls baptized (Ac. 2:41). Could you imagine Peter saying? No, I'm sorry folks. We can only get 600 of you in right now, but you'll have to be put on our 3 month waiting list.

That's the difference between your church and the New Testament. Hence, your church is not a New Testament church.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 10, 2003

heb12-2 said:
Are you still gainsaying? These kinds of comments serve no purpose but to distract from profitable study.

"All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." (Rom. 10:21)

"Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord." (Ac. 14:3)

"there had been much disputing" (Ac. 15:7)

You don't think it does any good to discuss our differences. But why did God, Jesus, and the apostles spend much time reasoning with people that differed with them? Two things: Patience, and love for their souls.

Forgive me oh holy heb 12

The point I was trying to make, (even if there was a point at all), is that those kids are just making post randomly and are trying to get 1000 post.

I find it somewhat interesting/discouraging that we are beating them.

Lighten up some Heb. "Thou shall not be legalistic" It's not in the bible but sounds good anyways, hmm ya gonna throw a few bible veres at me all that I have thus far? even though I am just speaking my mind? Get a life heb, for real. Relax, take a vaction, and think about what you can learn from the bible and through prayer, not what you can throw back at people.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 10, 2003

heb12-2 said:
In Acts 2, they're were 3000 souls baptized (Ac. 2:41). Could you imagine Peter saying? No, I'm sorry folks. We can only get 600 of you in right now, but you'll have to be put on our 3 month waiting list.

That's the difference between your church and the New Testament. Hence, your church is not a New Testament church.

Some

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 10, 2003

heb12-2 said:
In Acts 2, they're were 3000 souls baptized (Ac. 2:41). Could you imagine Peter saying? No, I'm sorry folks. We can only get 600 of you in right now, but you'll have to be put on our 3 month waiting list.

That's the difference between your church and the New Testament. Hence, your church is not a New Testament church.

Some of the things you say absolutly astonishes me....

I really wish you could hear yourself on the flip side of things. It disgusts me to a very extreme degree. Knowledge is power- you are abusing it. Stop.

**waits for the several other verses you are going to throw back at me**

**also waits for you to say: "where is YOUR scripture, Arch Angel?"**

Your actions cleary show the lack of wisdom you posses that is to go hand in hand with what you are preaching.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 10, 2003

I have come to the conclusion that people who believe that they need to be baptised to be saved is due to the fact that over their life time, they wanted to make sure they were saved.

Eternal insecurity.

Yes, once again, no scripture. So sorry. But trust me, I have my reasons.

Florida College · Sep 10, 2003

evangelist said:
Aaron11

My church has a water baptism every three to four month because we just don`t dunk people in water the understanding why they are getting baptize so we teach them a siminar that take three month to teach and we can see if the people are serious about there baptism , and if they are saved for real, and we watch there fruits.

I am all for people understanding why they are being baptized. Read Acts 8:26-40. There is no reason to suspect the events took place over a three to four month period. It sure didn't take the eunuch long to read two verses from Isaiah 53. While we don't know exactly how long Philip preached in vs.35, it surely wasn't 3-4 months. Whether it was minutes, or hours, the point is this: the eunuch knew all that he needed to know about baptism in a relatively short period of time. He was baptized shortly after Jesus was preached to him.

The reason for baptism?
Acts 2:38 (repentance) + (baptism) = (remission of sins)
Mk.16:16 first part - - (belief) + (baptism) = (salvation)
second part - - (no belief) + (baptism) does not equal (salvation)

May I make a suggestion. You have mentioned Joyce Meyer several times in yteaching aside for awhile and just study the bible exclusively? I think you will be amazed at what it contains.our postings. You seem to put a lot of trust in her teachings. How is she connected to the church that you are a member of? My suggestion is this: why not put Joyce Meyer's teaching aside for awhile and focus your studies exclusively on the bible? I think you will be amazed at what it contains.

I thought I should mention this, and some churches 6 month to make sure or aone a year baptism.

God Bless

Florida College · Sep 10, 2003

Aaron11 said:
I did not say that. We can not save ourselves no matter what we do. Christ saves us by His grace when we believe on Him. When someone truly believes on Christ, they will follow His teachings. His teachings include baptism. Baptism is part of our obedience to Christ, however our obedience is not what pays for our salvation.

I can't help but notice something about your postings - - you very seldom use scripture references. Why not?

Obedience doesn't pay for salvation. But according to Heb.5:9, obedience is necessary for salvation. Agreed?

Are you asking if there will be people in heaven that were not baptized who lived in the NT? If it is fair and merciful, yes. If it is not fair and not merciful, then no. Personally, I believe that there will be at least some people who lived in NT times and weren't baptized by immersion that will be in heaven, but that is just because I think it is just and merciful. Since I know God is just and merciful, I try to guess what He will do according to those standards. However, we are not the ones who decide who is saved and who isn't, therefore my guess is as valuable as yours.

You seem totally unwilling to adhere to 1 Pet.4:11a. Why is that? In order to speak as the oracles of God (speak where God speaks), how can you do that when your points are made with these expressions: "I believe," "I think," "I try to guess what he will do," and "my guess is as valuable as yours." I don't hear God speaking at all. All I hear is you speaking. Need I remind you of the accountability of a teacher (James 3:1)? Why not trade in the guesswork for faith in the Lord (Rom.10:17)?

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

evangelist said:
Heb12-2

Please tell me what you think abiut this web site.
I agree with the web site completely and it is like the author took the words out of my mouth, and mind, and belief and put it on a web site.

I only got to look at it briefly. If the author "took the words out of your mouth", then you should be able to present it's arguments here, without me having to look at another website.

And if the author took the words out of your mouth, why does he defend the "faith only" position? I thought you said you didn't believe in faith only.

the web site has answered the questions you asked biblically,

I'm not sure if he has. I didn't look at it that closely. I do know that you haven't even touched what some of us has presented here with the scriptures.

and in the same teaching and understanding as I am most other Christians have been taught and accept as the gospel.

We have shown that what most have been taught does not line up with the scriptures.

let me know what you think of it when you have time.

It would save me a lot of time, if you will answer my arguments since I am debating you and others on this thread right now, and not the owner of that website.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 10, 2003

"how can you do that when your points are made with these expressions: "I believe," "I think," "I try to guess what he will do," and "my guess is as valuable as yours."

Unlike most people, FC, he is willing to know that he MAY be wrong, and is just stating his persona beliefes and not impossing his beliefes on others, which is the same as what I do.
Yes, what he believes to him is true, same with me, but he also knows others have other beliefes too. I can see how this could be somewhat foriegn to you...

ARRON11: If I am wrong here, just step in and correct me.

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
I have never said Heb 2 that I did not believe that God say to get water baptism ......because I have ......Its not for Intial salvation

You say you believe that God said "to get water baptism". Well, could you prove it then? Which passages will you go to?

You say that "it's not for initial salvation". Could you tell me which verse says that?

the above verse is for those who think God will not save those who go back againt their faith but this shows that even if we believe and go back to are old ways God is still faithful even though be are disobient

The 2 Pet. 2:20-22 that you quoted clearly shows that a Christian can sin so as to be lost: "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." But I don't understand why you brought this verse up. You are right that you are off the subject on that. Let's stick to baptism on this thread.

heb12-2 · Sep 10, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
AGAIN...... HEB2

Three different salvations

past salvation Eph 1:4, 1 cor 15:3-4

presence tense salvation.....WE CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE RIGHT KNOW....but do we all the time..nope but is God still faith to those who were put in to the body...Eph 2:5-6,2 peter 2:20,22; 3:9

past salvation 1 thes 5:23 whole spirit and soul and body perfect at the Rapture

I missed the point you are making here and how it answered the arguments I gave to you.

let talk about love commandment instead of baptism since so zealous

If somone were to say that a Christian does not need to love God or others to remain a Christian, I would also be "zealous" to refute such a doctrine. But we are discussing salvation, and whether baptism is needed to obtain it.

If you want to bring love into the discussion, then how about this one?:
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jn. 14:15)

or this one:
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 Jn. 5:2-3)

The command to be baptized is not grievous to those that love God.

Aaron11 · Sep 11, 2003

"I can't help but notice something about your postings - - you very seldom use scripture references. Why not? "-- Florida College

My response: If you find something that is in the scriptures that is contradictory, let me know. If not, then it shouldn't matter how many scriptural references I use, as long as I am right.

Aaron11 · Sep 11, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
ARRON11: If I am wrong here, just step in and correct me.

no, you pretty much hit it right on the head. I am sick of hearing that statement anyway. People at FC always told me that I should not include "I think" or "I feel" in biblical conversations. The fact is, they are just trying to solidify their own feelings and thoughts by saying they "know". Another group that is really good at doing this are Mormons.

Aaron11 · Sep 11, 2003

"You seem totally unwilling to adhere to 1 Pet.4:11a. Why is that? In order to speak as the oracles of God (speak where God speaks), how can you do that when your points are made with these expressions: "I believe," "I think," "I try to guess what he will do," and "my guess is as valuable as yours." I don't hear God speaking at all. All I hear is you speaking. Need I remind you of the accountability of a teacher (James 3:1)? Why not trade in the guesswork for faith in the Lord (Rom.10:17)? "--Florida College

FC,

This is one reason I don't promote my views as God's views necessarily, because Im human. You seem to think this shows some sort of weakness or instability. However, you promote your poorly informed idea as God breathed and I see that as something to watch out for. Let's drop your side argument on whether or not I should approach my views with the same authority that you think you approach yours with. Lets get back on topic, which is baptism. The fact of the matter is that you don't understand the exact dynamics of how baptism is worked into our salvation. The only thing that really can be said about baptism is, Christ said to do it, so do it. That's it. Just say that and it will be enough.

heb12-2 · Sep 11, 2003

evangelist said:
M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.

Let`s look at this biblical scripture

So you have dodged my arguments to answer your own. Nevertheless, I will respond to these.

Yes , I do see somthing added to belief and that is baptism which morst people try to make a doctrine out of.

You are right that something is added to belief in Mk. 16:16. Even an elementary student knows that the word "and" connects "believe" and "baptized". You take one away, and you won't get the conclusion: salvation.

We don't "try to make a doctrine out of" baptism. The scriptures do that.

But notice , is there a time to be baptized explained in the verse???

You say there's no time frame to be baptized in Mk. 16:16.
Is there a time frame explained for faith either? So you have no point here.

Does it explain it is a water baptism????

See, this is why you should have answered my post on Eph. 4:5. I showed why Mk. 16:16 has to be water baptism.

I'll say it another way:
Mk. 16:16 says believe and baptism is for salvation.
1 Pet. 3:21 shows by context that it is water baptism, and it says it "saves us".
Therefore, it must be the same baptism, right?

Now look at this equation belief+baptism = saved make sense untill I read a little futher and then the facts , and the Kingdom message is revealed.

Notice the "BUT" and when I see a but , or somebody say`s "BUT" to me after they quoted something they said sort of cancells out what is said before and the thing after the but stand out in glory or a fight.

Your point here with the "BUT" in Mk. 16:16 is not valid. The "BUT" is simply contrasting what is done to do to "be saved" vs. "dam_ned".

I have heard Joyce Meyer preach on this message called "BUT" and I can`t find the tape to get some ´more notes on this.

Why not rely on the scriptures instead of Joyce Meyer?
I can tell you where you can get some good notes on baptism:
Ac. 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12; 1 Pet. 3:21. That's about the best notes you can find.

"Weel" anyway let continue to the end of the verse after the but has started something new and is in priority and that is please notice the scripture say the person who don`t believeth is called into damnation , and is not saved , so a believer is saved.
It doesn`t say again a unbaptized person is ******.

It doesn't have to say "and is not baptized" in Mk. 16:16. If you don't beleive, the you won't be baptized.

It's like this: "he that eateth and digesteth shall live, but he that eateth not, shall die."

It's the same idea. If you don't eat, you can't digest what you haven't eaten. Likewise you can't "obey from the heart" (Rom. 6:17) what you don't believe in. But just as digesting is necessary to live, baptism is necessary to "be saved".

So the point is believing will keep us out of hell and into eternal life , and that why i like this scripture.

If you like Mk. 16:16, then why don't you follow all of it, instead of leaving out baptism?

Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you like Jn. 3:16, then why don't you look at the whole context and obey vs. 5?

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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