Is baptism necessary to be saved?

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

Heb12-2

Please tell me what you think abiut this web site.
I agree with the web site completely and it is like the author took the words out of my mouth, and mind, and belief and put it on a web site.

the web site has answered the questions you asked biblically , and in the same teaching and understanding as I am most other Christians have been taught and accept as the gospel.

let me know what you think of it when you have time.

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm

God Bless

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

evangelist said:
Hello heb12-2

I did make a mistake and forgot to add verse 10 in Romans, and a matter of fact i would include all of the Chapter in Roman 10.

Good, that cleared that up for me.

But to add the natural water baptism to the message of salvation or a part of salvation is like adding tabaco Hot sause to the cake, it the wrong food , but used in it`s proper place the sause is effective, and that is effective in our christian walk, after being saved, and had already repented with the heart and mouth to confession.

That's a cute analogy and I would like if it were true.

Let me get this straight. The only thing we're disagreeing on in your "formula" now is baptism, right?

First, let me ask you this. Can you cite a verse that shows that baptism comes after salvation? I personally do not know of one. In every case that mentions salvation and baptism, Savation comes after baptism.

I have posted the following before, but if my memory serves me correctly, I can't recall anyone responding to it, so I'm posting it again. "What think ye?" (Mt. 21:28)

Dont Reverse The Order!

Mark 16:16
Bible order: Believe................Baptism...............Saved
Reverse order: Believe............Saved................Baptism

Acts 2:38
Bible order: Repent..............Baptism...........Remission
Reverse order: Repent.........Remission...........Baptism

1 Pet. 3:21
Bible order:........................Baptism....................Saved
Reverse order:....................Saved.....................Baptism

Acts 22:16
Bible order: Arise...........Baptism..........Wash away sins
Reverse order: Arise......Wash away sins.......Baptism

Col. 2:11-12
Bible order: Dead.................Baptism.................Raised
Reverse order: Dead..............Raised................Baptism

Rom. 6:3-4
Bible order: Dead.................Baptism...............New life
Reverse order: Dead.............New life.............Baptism

Gal. 3:26-27
Bible order: Faith..............Baptism............Put on Christ
Reverse order: Faith........Put on Christ...........Baptism

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

Faith without works aint perfect........ but here is one of my debates.....

"With regard to the ordinance of baptism I would agree with you that it is a command (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). It is an important step of obedience in a believers walk with the Lord and should be taken by all who come to saving faith in Christ. Not to do so is to be guilty of sin and disobedience and in so believing I would urge all believers to take this step. Indeed it saddens me greatly when people do not desire to obey the Lord in being baptised. Of course I would also reject infant baptism as unscriptural; and would hold that full immersion is the most scriptural and proper mode of baptism."
You say it's a commandment......a Commandment from whom tho? Just a normal man??? Nope... Infact these commandments came from the Apostles and From Jesus Himself....If we dis-obey the command it is considered Sin because we have sinned.
You also Teach that We recieve the Justification of Grace through Faith.... I dissagree with that statement According to what Paul wrote in Romans 6 we recieve the justification through Water Baptism!
The Holy Bible, American Standard Version
Romans 6:5-9 (ASV)
5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
7for he that hath died is justified from sin.
8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
9knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
"If you have been Justified from sin , you can conclude your freed from sin (past sins)" John Nowak 4/03/2003
I will agree with John here Because we are freed from out past sins.... As we can see. Paul describes the temptations of lust and other evil things which his and our body craves for... He was clensed from his sinful History and was able to start over,....in a New Life In Christ. How? In Water Baptism!
Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Baptism here seperates us from the sin and allows us to get into Christ By putting away the Old Man of Sin and putting on the New man which is Christ-
Romans 6:1 ¶What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
As you can see We are to quit serving Sin. and Baptism is the Dividing line.... because the Water is the Symbol of the Blood of Christ like the Grape juice is.. And we have our sins washed away...(Acts 2:38,Acts 22:16).
So how do we get to heaven if we haven't put away the sin and haven't seperated ourselves from Sin?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
A very misused scripture amond the denominational world. If you look We cant do our own works and become "Saved" We have to do the "Works" of God to Become saved for example....Faith in itself is a Work ...
1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
According to what i can see You must have a "Working" Faith....not just faith....because if Faith alone was able to save then the Demons would be saved but they are not because It's not just Faith alone! Well lets look at some conversions while were at it if ya dont mind....
Peters Sermon
Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
"What Shall We Do?"
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"Repent and Be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ For the Remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost"

What Did Peter tell them to do?????? To REPENT And be BAPTIZED. Why did Peter tell them this???? If you look ---->
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus Told the Apostles to "Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" hmmm intereasting Jesus commanded them to do this....and if you go farther....the People followed the Apostles Teachings-
Acts 2:42 ¶And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
.....Very intereasting....they stayed and followed the Apostles Doctrine..what doctrine was that? That was the Doctrine of Christ Which Jesus Preached Since he came to Earth.
1.Pentecost- Acts 2:14-41 Baptized: Verse 38-41
2.Samaria- Acts 8:5-13 Baptized: Verse 12-13
3.Enuch- Acts 8:35-39 Baptized: Verse 38
4.Saul(Paul)- Acts 9:17-28 Baptized: Verse 18
5.Cornelius- Acts 10:34-48 Baptized: Verse 48
6.Jailer- Acts 16:32-33 Baptized: Verse 33
7. Lydia- Acts 16:13 Baptized: Verse 15
8.Corinthians- Acts 18:8 Baptized: Verse 8
This conversion Chart contains all 8 conversions within the New Testament....All of them Were water Baptized why? Because they followed the apostles doctrine ...and the Apostles followed the doctrine of Christ....which was being preached to all the world........We are saved By the grace through the "Working Faith"...which leads to salvation....nut just faith... we Must --->
The Plan of Salvation
1.Hear- Romans 10:13-17.
2.Believe-John 3:16,Hebrews 11:1,Hebrews 11:6.
3.Repent- Luke 13:3, 1 Corinthians 7:10.
4.Confession- Matthew 10:32-33, Romans 10:9-10.
5.Water Baptism- Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16.
6.Remain faithful to Christ- Hebrews 10:23-39, Revelations 2:10
To become Saved!

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You evidently dont see it......... you see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only.

NOT FAITH ONLY! Well lets look at another verse....... lol to get a lil backfire from ya .

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? 3Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; 6knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7for he that hath died is justified from sin. 8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; 9knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.

Read Verse 7! 7for he that hath died is justified from sin

How do we die????? We dont die the physical death to where all life leaves us but we make a new spiritual life from turning away from satan and unto Christ...whom will give us a new life in him!

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

Heb12-2

did you check out that web site???

http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm

I think your answer to your question is even on that web site biblically , if I can remember, of proof salvation and being saved come first before a baptism ritual.

If we could be together in this understanding of the gospel the devil would be even angry that the body of Christ is coming more in unity than A divided house that could fall and not stand.

God Bless

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

evangelist said:
Heb12-2

did you check out that web site???

<A href="http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm">http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Baptism/D6.htm</a>

hmmmmm i'll say i believe the teachings are still polluted ..... and your making the bible contradict where it doesn't.....Evangelist...

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
hmmmmm i'll say i believe the teachings are still polluted ..... and your making the bible contradict where it doesn't.....Evangelist...

Does that mean you checked out the web site and biblically you don`t agree with the biblical answers they gave?????

God bless

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

evangelist said:
Does that mean you checked out the web site and biblically you don`t agree with the biblical answers they gave?????

God bless

trying to prove faith only which is not biblical.....read my posts above on the issue ....... Faith only salvation is no where shown in example in the New covenant.......

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
this is getting off suject but

can't let this go sorry everyone

2 peter 2:20 For if after they[believers] have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord [learned the christian life]and Savior Jesus Christ, they are entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[went back to sinning ways]

2 peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowed in the mire.

2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward[believers] not willing[determined] that any [believers] should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I have never said Heb 2 that I did not believe that God say to get water baptism ......because I have ......Its not for Intial salvation

the above verse is for those who think God will not save those who go back againt their faith but this shows that even if we believe and go back to are old ways God is still faithful even though be are disobient

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 8, 2003

heb12-2 said:
This is a little off the subject, but Yes!
The godhead does dwell in believers:

God dwells in us (2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Jn. 4:12, 15)

Christ dwells in us (Col. 1:27; Eph. 3:17)

The Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; 2 Tim. 1:14; Jam. 4:5)

We dwell in God (1 Jn. 4:13, 15)

We dwell in Christ (Jn. 15:1-7)

Love dwells in us (1 Jn. 3:17)

The word dwells in us (Col. 3:16; 1 Jn. 1:10; 2:14)

I agree we are put into Christ by the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit does that through the Word that teaches us to be baptized (water). The Holy Spirit teaches us to be baptized through the word. Water baptism puts us into Christ (Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12)

I really think it would be profitable to fully discuss which passages refer to water baptism and which passages refer to Spirit baptism. You can begin my answering what I presented in my post on Eph. 4:5. (edit: I just now noticed that you did make a response to that post. I apologize. I believe I over looked it. I will respond again.)

The Holy Spirit guides us through the word revealed to the apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:21)

So the Holy Spirit guided the apostles and prophets directly. But the Holy Spirit does not guide us directly. We are not inspired like they were. The Holy Spirit guides us through his Word revealed to the apostles.

The Word is the tool the Spirit uses to guide us (Eph. 6:17)
You are right that man cannot do what is right without God's guidance (Jer. 10:23; Prov. 16:25). But how does God guide us? Surely he does not makes us like puppets on a string. He persuades us through his Word.

You are still thinking of baptism as a meritorious work of man. That is not the case.

Consider this:
Water baptism is simply the "form of doctrine" that we "obey from the heart" (Rom. 6:17). But the cleansing that takes place in water baptism is God's work (Col. 2:12).
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12).

This verse says that in BAPTISM we are raised through the faith "of the operation of God". Does that sound like man's work to you? It doesn't to me. In baptism, we are simply laying ourselves on God's operating table. And God is the doctor that operates on us, and cuts off "the body of the sins of the flesh" (col. 2:11).

There is no contradiction with that and Eph. 2:8-9. It harmonizes perfectly.

AGAIN...... HEB2

Three different salvations

past salvation Eph 1:4, 1 cor 15:3-4

presence tense salvation.....WE CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE RIGHT KNOW....but do we all the time..nope but is God still faith to those who were put in to the body...Eph 2:5-6,2 peter 2:20,22; 3:9

past salvation 1 thes 5:23 whole spirit and soul and body perfect at the Rapture

let talk about love commandment instead of baptism since so zealous
John 13:34-35 commands the believer to love one another like christ loves you ...but do we all the time .....why in Gal 4:29 , romans 8:5-13, 2 peter 2:20,22;3:9 talking about carnal believers persecuting spiritual believers ......then in Gal 5:16 paul is exhorting us not to walk in the flesh but in the spirit.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
trying to prove faith only which is not biblical.....read my posts above on the issue ....... Faith only salvation is no where shown in example in the New covenant.......

agreed eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved....tool is faith

yet saved by grace

saved by grace

saved by grace

Florida College · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
agreed eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved....tool is faith

yet saved by grace

saved by grace

saved by grace

True. Man is saved by grace. But not by grace alone. Harmonizing Titus 2:11 and Matt. 7:13-14 is not hard. God's grace is extended to all men, but all men will not be saved, therefore, grace is not the only factor involved in salvation.

Is faith the only other factor involved? No, it isn't. James 2:24 plainly . . . plainly . . . plainly . . . says that "faith only" will not measure up to God's standards. It is good to see that you agree with this point. Just as Abraham obeyed God by offering Isaac (vs.21), we must obey Christ's command today (Mk16:16 & Heb.5:9).

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved." (Mk.16:16)

The Lord is waiting for all who will obey him. He desires that no one perish (2 Pet.3:9), but that "all should come to repentance." Brethren, why not use that faith that you say you have . . . by turning from your sins (or repenting), confessing the Lord (Rom.10:9), and be baptized into Christ - - for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)?

Why not simply take God at his word?

FC

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
agreed eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved....tool is faith

yet saved by grace

saved by grace

saved by grace

It is the working faith which leads to salvation but not Faith alone... it says that plainly that faith is made perfect by works.....but not faith alone....re-read james.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.

Faith and works are made perfect together......... you have yet to answer my responce on the issue of justification

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

Is faith the only other factor involved? No, it isn't. James 2:24 plainly . . . plainly . . . plainly . . . says that "faith only" will not measure up to God's standards. It is good to see that you agree with this point.

Flordia Brethren has continued to state faith alone... it's not the Faith alone which saves but the "WORKING" faith which leads to salvation...do we agree flordia???? Working faith leads to repentence,confession, and baptism which is then enters into living faithfully which means salvation

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
trying to prove faith only which is not biblical.....read my posts above on the issue ....... Faith only salvation is no where shown in example in the New covenant.......

I said before and I`ll say it again i don´t believe in a faith only doctrine, but I don´t believe no way water is a part of repentance or a part of a way to be saved and be born again.

Again did you look at the link I gave about the Church of Christ????

Be blessed

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 8, 2003

yup.... far as i'm concerned me and u need to debate this issue over e-mail..... or yahoo ..... but i'm up for debate

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
yup.... far as i'm concerned me and u need to debate this issue over e-mail..... or yahoo ..... but i'm up for debate

do you have a MSN???

or you can click here.

Click here: Chatzy - The Redneck's Club Lounge password: party

God Bless

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator
go to that link I am there now to debate about your doctrine.

Put party in the pass word, and add your name, then you or anybody else is in the chat.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 8, 2003

FC just for you

Grace something we do not deserve
2nd thing that puts us into Christ

God choses us ......Eph 1:4, Matt 20:16,22:14, John 15:16, 1 peter 2:4,9 ;

calling Romans 9:11, Romans 8:29, col 1:15, 1 cor 1:26, Gal 1:6,15 called by grace

Mark 16:16 He that believeth [romans 4:5] and is baptised[1 cor 12:13] shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damnned....

reason why ****** ..............no belief
belief being automatic baptism by H.S.

2peter 3:9 who does all refer too in context?????

2 peter 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through knowledge of the Lord[believers] and Savior Jesus Christ, they are entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

they believed and turn away from God and He is Faith even though we are not!!!! love this promise... but we can experience something better on this world which is God quality of life right now!!!!

by eternal life......

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 8, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
It is the working faith which leads to salvation but not Faith alone... it says that plainly that faith is made perfect by works.....but not faith alone....re-read james.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.[mature]

Faith and works are made perfect together......... you have yet to answer my responce on the issue of justification

\

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted righteousness

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit

In hebrews 11:32 lets look at King David's faith but he isn't listed for work why his works was that he murdered , and commited adultry

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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