Is baptism necessary to be saved?

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
FC do you believe in the trinity?

Yes, I believe in the Godhead . . . Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. But that is a different study.

reason why..I asked

Did you know that we are in Christ and Christ is in the Father and since the Father ... and since it is a trinity the Holy Spirit is also inside of us since we are the temple each one of every believer... whether carnal or spiritual

1 Cor. 6:19

why is this important explains Baptism and gifts 1 cor 12:5-11 different works from spirit but not the same....reason for tongues was for the Jews 1cor 14:22,1 cor 1:22, every place where tongue accure there are Jews present...

1 Cor.12:1-5 explains spiritual gifts, but doesn't say a word about baptism.

The reason for tongues is given is given in 1 Cor.14:22. The reason doesn't have anything to do with Jews being there or not. My question that prompted this discussion was: Did you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? If so, did you speak in tongues like the apostles did in Acts 2, or Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 when they received the Holy Spirit baptism? Your answer will not have anything to do with Jews.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mark 16:16
Why not obey the Lord on his terms?

evangelist · Sep 7, 2003

Florida College said:
Evangelist,

This is your 4th. posting that I can recall on this thread. You have yet to use the first scriptural reference. What church are you an evangelist for?

FC

I also posted a response to one of your previous memos. I am interested in seeing your response.

I am a member of the Jesus Centrum in Kassel germany which is a pentecostal Charismatic free Christian church.

God Bless

evangelist · Sep 7, 2003

Florida College said:
Evangelist,

This is the third time that I've responded to your posts. I have yet to see you use a scripture. I am going to ask you some quesions. I have not looked at your profile yet. I am NOT trying to be smart or cute, and I do not intend this to be a put-down. I just want an honest answer to some questions. So, here goes . . . are you really an evangelist? If so, how long? And for what church? And is that church affiliated with a denomination? If so, which one?

FC

Yes i am an evangelist , street , tv and radio evangelist in Germany.
If you get Joyce Meyer magazine you can see tthat she supports my ministry by letting me broadcast her on my cable program , and the tv station is Offener kanal kassel .
You can see what i do live on my web site, and watch video`s and see in the gallery pictures to see i am an real Evangelist, and i am a founder odf a revival disco in germany supported by my Church and other ministry around the world.
Never went to any seminary or bible school , but i did alot of kneeology, and accepted the gift to evangelize with power, and Authority.

I hope this answered you questions, and again if not please go to my web site ok?

God Bless you
Evangelist C.Moore

heb12-2 · Sep 7, 2003

Joyce Meyer?

"Revival disco"?

evangelist said:
Never went to any seminary or bible school

That's ok. I don't believe you have to go to seminary. Did Peter, Paul, or any of the other apostles? So there's no problem there.

but i did alot of kneeology, and accepted the gift to evangelize with power, and Authority.

The "power" is in the gospel (Rom. 1:16), my friend, and you have still yet to use it. That is the point FC is making.

You mentioned "authority", but yet there is no scriptural authority for what you have presented in your posts.

Let me kindly remind you of a scripture that I am sure you have read:
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." (2 Tim. 4:5)

This was Paul's admonition to Timothy. What is the work of an evangelist? We can see what it is when we look just two verses back.
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." (2 Tim. 4:2)

"Preach the word". That's the work of an evangelist in 3 words. With all kindness, you are not doing it. The word has not been preached in any of your posts.

We can't get anywhere in this dicussion unless you are willing to stick with just what the scriptures say. Just making statements without a "thus saith the Lord" is speaking without "authority". And without that "authority", there is no "power" in your words.

The point is this: Give us scripture.

1 Pet. 4:11
"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God."

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 7, 2003

Florida College said:
Brethren,

Below are questions asked by an "evangelist" with my responses in orange font. Perhaps, you would be so kind as to point out where things weren't handled properly. I discuss Rom.4:5, Eph.2:8-9, and James 2.

FC

Originally Posted By: evangelist

Water baptism is a work is this true?

Yes. Baptism is a work.
This is what I based my conclusion on: The Greek noun that is frequently tranlated work in the New Testament is ergon. Ergon is defined in Youngs Analytical Concordance as work, a deed, or business; Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines it as work, employment, or a task. Ergon appears 176 times in the KJV of the N.T. It is tranlated work 152 times, deed 22 times, doing 1 time, and labour 1 time (according to Strongs). It is translated deed in Col.3:17, And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Since baptism is a deed that is done in the name of the Lord (by his authority), then baptism is a work.

We are saved by grace , and if baptism is a work then this work will cancel out grace is this true??

Yes. I do believe we are saved by grace i.e. Rom.3:4, Eph.2:8-9, Titus 3:7. But I do NOT believe that grace is the only factor in mans salvation. Titus 2:11 says, For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (NKJV). But I conclude that all men will not be saved when I read Matt. 7:13-14, Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Therefore, the understanding is that man is saved by grace, but NOT by grace alone.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:7 That be justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that Justified the ungodly[how? Romans 4:25], his faith is counted for righteousness.

Eph 2:4 But God rich in mercy, for His great love where with He loved us.[verses please all three persons of how I gave them once] 5 Even when we were dead[seperatedfrom God] in sins, hath made us together with Christ, (by grace are ye saved 6 And haith raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.[same verse less words 1 cor 12:13] 7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith [word study below]; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God. 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does baptism cancel out grace? We have previously determined that man is saved by grace, but NOT saved by grace alone.verses So, it must be concluded that other factors are involved in mans salvation. What are those factors? A quick reading of Eph.2:8-9 or Rom.4:2-5 would lead us to eliminate all works: thus, we are saved by faith.

[size=+0]Heb 11:1 How faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [/size]

[size=+0]Romans 10:17 So faith cometh by hearing thw word of God[/size]

2 tim 3:15 And that from the child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. how do we get there 1 cor 12:13 eph 2:5-6

eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. postisional OT could not do this Gen 27:29 heb 2:18

[size=+0]Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under law, shut up unto faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ[how? romans 3:20] , that we might be justified by faith.[/size]

romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promises made of none effect: 15 Because the law [even commandments] worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.[romans 5:14] 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abramham;[two groups just described ] who is the father of us[believers] all. 17 (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who made alive the dead, and called those things which be not as though they were.[grace]

Correct? End of story. Right? Not quite. We have already concluded that baptism is a work (ergon). Correct? But, according to John 6:28-29, Faith is also a work! Then they said to Him, what shall we do, that we may work [ergon] the [size=+0]works of God.[/size] Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work [ergon] of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. The work God required was to believe in Jesus. Faith, or belief is a work (ergon) or deed that is required. So, as you can see, the original question has become a little more complicated, hasnt it? If we reason that baptism (a work) cancels out grace, the same logic demands that belief (a work) cancels out grace. So, what are we to do? Heb. 11:6 plainly says, But without faith it is impossible to please him. What a dilemma?

God's work to do NOT MANS WORK TO DO!!!!!!

At this point, I would be compelled to go back and read and study Eph.2:8-9 and Rom. 4:2-5 more diligently. I would also pull out a study aid that would help me find other places in the N.T. where other scriptures discussed works and grace, or works and faith. James 2:14-26 would really open my eyes if I concluded salvation involved no works at all. And if I was a really an attentive bible student, I would recognize that Rom.4:2-5 and James 2:21-24 seem to contradict each other. But because I understood that All scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim.3:16), I would realize that the fault would not lie in the holy scriptures, but that the fault would lie somewhere in my understanding. Studying Rom. chapter 3 and on into chapter 4 would make me realize that the works being discussed are circumcision and works required under the law of Moses. I would then study James 2, concluding that Abraham's works involved doing what God told him to (vs.21) - - to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. As I used my study aids, I would discover the depth of Abrahams faith as he obeyed God (Heb.11:17-19). Then I would study Eph.2:8-9, concluding that the works being discussed are works that men could boast about - - or works of human merit. I might be a little confused when I studied the works of righteousness in Titus 3:5, but when I remembered that Cornelius (in Act 10) was a devout man that performed righteous works, I would realize that his works of righteousness alone were not enough to save him - - he needed the gospel of Christ.

And as I sat back and allowed all that I had studied about the relationship of works and grace, and works and faith, to soak in, I would turn to turn to Matt.7:21 and read that passage. Not everyone that says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Okay, now I understand how it works. Salvation comes by the grace of God, not by circumcision, works under the law of Moses, human works, or works of righteousness. But according to what Jesus said in Matt.7:21, I have to do the Fathers will, or what God requires of me -

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HOW DOES ONE DO THE WILL OF GOD WHEN THEY AREN'T PUT IN TO CHRIST? THEY CAN'T BY THEM SELVES AND THIS IS WHY MATT 7 THEY WERE NOT IN GOD'S WILL SO THEY CANNOT DO GODS WORKS BUT ONLY THERE OWN WONDERFUL WORKS VS MATT 7:22

- just like Abraham in James 2:24. As I consider what God requires today under the law of Christ, I conclude that after hearing the gospel, faith is required (John 3:16 ; Mk.16:16), repentance is required (Lk.13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30), confession of Jesus is required (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom.10:9 ; Acts 8:37), and baptism is required (Mk.16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16) to become a Christian. Now, I can take comfort in these words, He became the author of eternal life unto all who obey him (Heb.5:9).

After I have obeyed the Lord by doing all that he has initially commanded me to do to become a Christian, I have nothing to boast about - - and I have earned nothing - - I have simply done what God requires of me.

I then study the fall of Jericho is Joshua chapter 6. God said that he gave the Israelites the city in vs.2. But then he had commandments that they needed to obey before he gave them the city. The story is interesting and boosts my faith. I think I will share it with my friends who misunderstand the nature of the works that Gods requires of his people today.

So, to answer your question, Does baptism cancel out grace? The anwer is NO. It doesnt. Baptism is an act of faith (Col.2:12) that puts one INTO Christ (Gal.3:26-27), where she/he will have redemption through his blood (Eph.1:7). Can anyone claim redemption without the blood of Christ (1 Pet.1:18-19)?

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If we believe and fall in Love with Christ then after we will want to do what ever pleases Christ, and that includ, bible study, going to church , and you will want to pray, and love to trust God, and His Word, and help the poor and homeless, and in your christian walk get baptized as a step as following jesus and showing that you are buried in Christ.

God Bless

God Bless

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evangelist · Sep 7, 2003

Hello heb12-2

Thank you for your words , and praise God you are a bible christian like myself.

I am new here and I `ve been most of the time on Roman catholic board, and they are against using scriptures so please let me get back in line with this board , this is why I came here to be with real Christian who stand on the Word of God like myself.
i hate religion and relious spirits, and sence i have debated and talked with so many Christian that was not spiritual guided , and don`t know the bible, i had to come down to their level of carnality.

I think we can learn abd grow from each other spiritually and biblically praise the Lord.

Proverb:8:33: Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Proverb:8:34: Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverb:8:35: For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

God Bless you

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 7, 2003

Florida College said:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mark 16:16
Why not obey the Lord on his terms?

JUST HARMONIZING fc

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 7, 2003

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 ¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.(WEB)

Faith without works is Dead..... You have to Have Both...anything to do with Salvation by the Saving of Christ is not our Works but Gods!

Florida College · Sep 7, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
JUST HARMONIZING fc

Brethren,

So, explain.
Why can't you obey what the Lord said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mk.16:16)?

The first part of that verse:
(belief) + (baptism) = (salvation)

The second part of that verse:
(no belief) + (baptism) does not equal (salvation)

Conclusions:
Salvation depends on both faith and baptism.
Baptism without faith does not result in salvation.
That harmonizes perfectly with Heb.5:9 - - "He became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him."
That also harmonizes perfectly with Heb.11:6 - - "without faith it is impossible to please Him [God]"

FC

Perhaps, other readers will chime in. Help brethren find the strength to "take the Lord at his word."

Florida College · Sep 7, 2003

evangelist said:
Hello heb12-2

Thank you for your words , and praise God you are a bible christian like myself.

I am new here and I `ve been most of the time on Roman catholic board, and they are against using scriptures so please let me get back in line with this board , this is why I came here to be with real Christian who stand on the Word of God like myself.
i hate religion and relious spirits, and sence i have debated and talked with so many Christian that was not spiritual guided , and don`t know the bible, i had to come down to their level of carnality.

That would present a real problem - - those who profess to be Christians that are against using scriptures. That would be like a first century soldier who refused to use a sword in battle . . . ugly sight . . . very bloody. Note 2 Cor.10:3-5 ; Eph.6:11-17.

I think we can learn abd grow from each other spiritually and biblically praise the Lord.

Proverb:8:33: Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Proverb:8:34: Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverb:8:35: For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

God Bless you

Evangelist,

Thanks for honestly answering the questions about your ministry.

Will you be responding to the scriptural points that were posted concerning your questions?

FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 7, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 ¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.(WEB)

Faith without works is Dead..... You have to Have Both...anything to do with Salvation by the Saving of Christ is not our Works but Gods!

this is getting off suject but

can't let this go sorry everyone

2 peter 2:20 For if after they[believers] have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord [learned the christian life]and Savior Jesus Christ, they are entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[went back to sinning ways]

2 peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowed in the mire.

2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward[believers] not willing[determined] that any [believers] should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

evangelist said:
I am new here

Welcome!

I think we can learn abd grow from each other spiritually and biblically praise the Lord.

Proverb:8:33: Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Proverb:8:34: Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverb:8:35: For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Those are some of my favorite verses. Thanks for sharing.

May I ask two things of you?

Do you know of any verses that teach "faith only" or that baptism is unnecessary?
Could you go back to my post on Eph. 4:5, and answer what I presented with scripture and show me with scripture why you disagree with any points I made?

I appreciate your humility and your willingness to discuss the scriptures.

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
quote #572 from FC

jesus used scriputal referances to combat error....

YET did he harmonize?

one verse usually perfect in every response I believe

yet you can't handle Romans 4:5 eph 2:8 with james 2

It's funny how you try to claim that Jesus didn't harmonize scripture and then in the very next breath YOU ask fc to harmonize Rom. 4:5 and Eph. 2:8 with James 2. You are denying that you should harmonize and then you're trying to do it. Are you not in essence saying that you should harmonize verses? So why deny it? And why not take the verses on grace, faith, and the blood and harmonize them with the verses on baptism and obedience?

Here's an example of Jesus Harmonizing true statements:

Mt. 22:29-32:
Do you remember when the Sadducees (did not believe in the resurrection) questioned Jesus concerning the resurrection. Jesus gave them a powerful argument that silenced them for good by harmonizing true statements:

1) God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
2) God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Therefore, there must be a resurrection!

Do you see how if those two statements are harmonized, then it proves that there is a resurrection?

The book of Hebrews harmonized two old testament passages concerning Jesus' priesthood in Heb. 5:5-6.

When Peter spoke of Christ's resurrection and him sitting on David's throne (Ac. 2:30-35), he was harmonizing these verses: Ps. 16:8-10; Ps. 110:1; Ps. 132:11.

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
yet you can't handle Romans 4:5 eph 2:8 with james 2

No I believe you are the one that can't handle them together. You want to keep Rom. 4:5 and Eph. 2:8, but you want to rule out James 2.

Why not believe them all?

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

heb12-2 said:
Welcome!

Those are some of my favorite verses. Thanks for sharing.

May I ask two things of you?

Do you know of any verses that teach "faith only" or that baptism is unnecessary?

Could you go back to my post on Eph. 4:5, and answer what I presented with scripture and show me with scripture why you disagree with any points I made?

I appreciate your humility and your willingness to discuss the scriptures.

Sorry faith alone I don`t believe but i do believe and was taught and teach we need faith with other things for salvation like the word of God, or trusting.

It is like baking a cake you do need flour along with the milk.

the salvation formular.

believe with your heart in love Rom 10:9 + washing of the blood of Jesus spiritually to repentance in faith = SAVED SALVATION NOW!

Why should I go through Eph again, when i just gave you my formular to heaven and everlasting life which count and is the most important thing on this planet???

This is the good news, and anything added is bad news , which i don`t like to be bothered with praise God.

God Bless

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

evangelist said:
Sorry faith alone I don`t believe but i do believe and was taught and teach we need faith with other things for salvation like the word of God, or trusting.

So we agree that faith alone cannot save. Now can we reason together to agree on what other things along with faith are necessary for salvation?

It is like baking a cake you do need flour along with the milk.

That is an excellent illustration.

the salvation formular.

believe with your heart in love Rom 10:9 + washing of the blood of Jesus spiritually to repentance in faith = SAVED SALVATION NOW!

You quoted Rom. 10:9, but I noticed that you did not include part of that verse in your "salvation formula". The verse also mentions confessing the Lord Jesus. Did you mean to leave Confession out or was this just a mistake? Do you believe confessing is necessary? Even in the the next verse it says, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (v.10)

Also, do you believe, "Baptism doth also now save us"? (1 Pet. 3:21)

If you add Confession and Baptism to your formula then you and I would be in agreement.

Believe (Eph. 2:8-9)
Repent (Lk. 13:3)
Confess (Rom. 10:9-10)
Baptized (Ac. 22:16)

Why should I go through Eph again, when i just gave you my formular to heaven and everlasting life which count and is the most important thing on this planet???

I wanted you to go through my post on Eph. 4:5 again because I addressed some scriptures that I don't believe you considered or answered. And because you left out confession and baptism in your formula.

This is the good news, and anything added is bad news , which i don`t like to be bothered with praise God.

Are you saying baptism and confession is "bad news"? Do you really mean that you "don't like to be bothered" with baptism and confession? Are you saying that Jesus preached "bad news" in Mk. 16:16? Did Peter preach "bad news" in Ac. 2:38? Did Ananias preach "bad news" in Ac. 22:16; Did Paul preach "bad news" in Rom. 6:3-4? Were all these preaching "bad news"? Then do you believe the Bible is FULL Of bad news? Do all these passages "bother" you?

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
hebrew
WITH BAPTISM if the trinity lives inside of every believer

This is a little off the subject, but Yes!
The godhead does dwell in believers:

God dwells in us (2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Jn. 4:12, 15)
Christ dwells in us (Col. 1:27; Eph. 3:17)
The Spirit dwells in us (Rom. 8:9, 11; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; 2 Tim. 1:14; Jam. 4:5)
We dwell in God (1 Jn. 4:13, 15)
We dwell in Christ (Jn. 15:1-7)
Love dwells in us (1 Jn. 3:17)
The word dwells in us (Col. 3:16; 1 Jn. 1:10; 2:14)

since being put into Christ by the Holy Spirit

I agree we are put into Christ by the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit does that through the Word that teaches us to be baptized (water). The Holy Spirit teaches us to be baptized through the word. Water baptism puts us into Christ (Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12)

I really think it would be profitable to fully discuss which passages refer to water baptism and which passages refer to Spirit baptism. You can begin my answering what I presented in my post on Eph. 4:5. (edit: I just now noticed that you did make a response to that post. I apologize. I believe I over looked it. I will respond again.)

do not every believer has the spirit to guide us to perfection

The Holy Spirit guides us through the word revealed to the apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:4-5; 2 Pet. 1:21)

So the Holy Spirit guided the apostles and prophets directly. But the Holy Spirit does not guide us directly. We are not inspired like they were. The Holy Spirit guides us through his Word revealed to the apostles.

The Word is the tool the Spirit uses to guide us (Eph. 6:17)

how can man chose to do right with out God's Guidance

You are right that man cannot do what is right without God's guidance (Jer. 10:23; Prov. 16:25). But how does God guide us? Surely he does not makes us like puppets on a string. He persuades us through his Word.

......like water baptism since we are enemies of God till belief which is savaltion

You are still thinking of baptism as a meritorious work of man. That is not the case.

Consider this:
Water baptism is simply the "form of doctrine" that we "obey from the heart" (Rom. 6:17). But the cleansing that takes place in water baptism is God's work (Col. 2:12).
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12).

This verse says that in BAPTISM we are raised through the faith "of the operation of God". Does that sound like man's work to you? It doesn't to me. In baptism, we are simply laying ourselves on God's operating table. And God is the doctor that operates on us, and cuts off "the body of the sins of the flesh" (col. 2:11).

There is no contradiction with that and Eph. 2:8-9. It harmonizes perfectly.

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

Fat_N_Friendly said:
I want to say that in my previous post the edited word is not the vulgar one that it appears to be. it is instead another word that begins in a C and ends in a rap. if this word offends you then I am sorry.

I admit that I did think it was another word. It did look that way when it was edited out. I do not really like the other word either, but I am glad that you cleared that up. Apology accepted. I appreciate your post very much. I'm sorry if I embarrassed you on that point. Please continue to discuss the issue of baptism with us.

evangelist · Sep 8, 2003

Hello heb12-2

I did make a mistake and forgot to add verse 10 in Romans, and a matter of fact i would include all of the Chapter in Roman 10.

But to add the natural water baptism to the message of salvation or a part of salvation is like adding tabaco Hot sause to the cake, it the wrong food , but used in it`s proper place the sause is effective, and that is effective in our christian walk, after being saved, and had already repented with the heart and mouth to confession.

God Bless

heb12-2 · Sep 8, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Promised in John made real in Acts 2

You made this statement concerning Holy Spirit baptism. Notice the word you used? You said Holy Spirit baptism was "PROMISED". I agree. That was the point I was making. Holy Spirit baptism was "PROMISED", but never commanded. Holy Spirit Baptism wasPROMISED to the Apostles (Jn. 14:26; 16:13; Lk. 24:49), and I agree that it was fulfilled in Acts 2. The apostles received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. So Spirit baptism was promised, but Water baptism was COMMANDED in Ac. 2:38. We can conclude that Ac. 2:38 was water baptism when we campare it with Cornelius. Let me place the scripture before you again, so I can show you something. Now pay real close attention!

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Ac 10:47-48).

Notice two things about water baptism from this verse:
1) Water baptism was COMMANDED
2) Water baptism was "in the name of the Lord"

Please answer these arguments!

Argument #1:
a) The great commission baptism was "COMMANDED" (Mt. 28:19-20)
b) Water baptism was "COMMANDED" (Ac. 10:47-48)
Therefore, Water baptism is the baptism of the great commission!

Argument #2:
a) Water baptism is "IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" (Ac. 10:47-48)
b) Batism "in the name of Jesus Christ" is "FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS" (Ac. 2:38)
Therefore, Water baptism is "for the remission of sins"!

1 cor 12:13 spirit baptized us in Christ/body which is the Church

I've answered this before and you really didn't repspond. Let me answer it again.
First, my argument #2 above showed that Ac. 2:38 is water baptism.
Secondly, I showed you many posts ago the paralel between 1 Cor. 12:13 and Ac. 2:37-38, 41, 47.

This paragraph is what is described in 1 Cor. 12:13:
In Ac 2:37 the Holy Spirit "pricked" their heart when they "HEARD" the word. "They that gladly received hisWord were baptized." (Ac. 2:41). So the Spirit lead them to be baptized through the word preached to them. When they were baptized, "The Lord added [them] to the church" (Ac. 2:47). The church = his body (Col. 1:18)

That is exacltly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying

you sure are zealous for water baptism aren't you. shucks

get back to this

I'm just trying to follow what the scriptures say. I look forward to your response to the rest of my post on Eph. 4:5 and to your response to this post.

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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