Is baptism necessary to be saved?

heb12-2 · Sep 6, 2003

I asked, "What is questionable about these verses?"

Baptism "saves us." (1 Pet. 3:21)

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 peter 3:21 once again babies are baptised with water all the time are they saved? no it is a personel relationship with God..

Noah was saved physically by believing[saved..romans 4:5] God and building a boat[work james 2] easy....We believe that God does all the work[romans 4:5] love fellow believers like Christ loved us [john 13:34-35,Gal 6:10,ect....]

Infant baptism is unscriptural. Babies are saved already (Lk. 18:16); therefore, they do not need baptism until they grow up and become accountable.

you said Noah was saved by faith and obedience? I agree. It is the same today. Noah's obedience was building the boat. Our obedience is submitting to Christ in baptism.

My next point was:

baptism "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38)

You said:

This happens when in order please....Vs 37 HS working in their minds ...doing what....John 16:7-11 ...repent is changing ones mind then be baptised.....gift from HS what that Romans 12, 1cor 12-14,

vs 41 and they recieved the word [believed] first then baptised

what order? Look at the order.
Bible order: Repent...baptized...remission of sins (Ac. 2:38)
Your order: repent...remission of sins...baptism

The Holy Spirit pricked their hearts Through the Word that they "HEARD" (v.37).

You are correct that belief came before baptism, but note that remission of sins came after baptism!

Next:

baptism to "wash away thy sins" (Ac. 22:16)

.....by calling on the name of the Lord...Romans 3:10-11..2cor 2:10....

How did he call on the name of the Lord? answer: by being baptized!

Next:

baptism to "put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ....no water 1 cor 12:13 Holy Spirit does all this

To keep from repeating myself again, read my post on the One baptism of Eph. 4:5 and respond to it.

Next:

Baptism to be "buried with Christ" (Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:3-4)

where is water baptism in dirt? this too by spirit 1 cor 12:13

This must be water. I address that in the post on the One Baptism of Eph. 4:5.

Next:

baptism to benefit from Christ's resurrection (Rom. 6:5)

how baptism man baptism do this ? can't 1 cor 12:13

Oh, Yes man can do this. Look at verse 17, "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Who obeyed from the heart? "Ye" = men. and "that form of doctrine" = baptism

Finally:

Baptism to be "crucified with him" (Rom. 6:6)

ditto

Same again. Water baptism is obeying "that form" of how Jesus died, buried, and was resurrected. That is the form we obey when we crucify our old man in repentance, baptized into his death, and resurrected to be freed from sin. Read Rom. 6:3-6 and that should be clear.

heb12-2 · Sep 6, 2003

evangelist said:
Where is that post on EPHesians??

God Bless

post #519 on pg.52

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 6, 2003

heb12-2 said:
Ok, I said that this was going to be the next post, but I had a few in between there. Sorry.

One Baptism (Eph. 4:5)
What is the one baptism of Eph. 4:5?
Eph. 4:5 says there is one baptism. What is this one baptism? Is it water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit? If there is now only one baptism and not two, then one of these ceased. Which baptism ceased, water baptism, or Holy Spirit baptism?

The one baptism of Eph. 4:5 is the one that still remains:
The great commission baptism (Matt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15-16) would last till the end of the world. Which baptism is it? Can we establish 2 things from Mt. 28:19-20 and Mk. 16:15-16?
The baptism of the great commission is the one:
(1) Jesus commanded (Mt. 28:19-20) and
(2) is for salvation (Mk. 16:16).

Now keep those 2 things in mind!

Water baptism is commanded; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT commanded:
Holy Spirit baptism was a promise, but never commanded! If it was, where is the passage? Jesus and the apostles commanded water baptism (Ac. 10:48; Jn. 3:5)

Promised in John made real in Acts 2
1 cor 12:13 spirit baptized us in Christ/body which is the Church

Water baptism is for salvation; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT for salvation:

Holy Spirit baptism was not given for the purpose of salvation! If it was, where is the passage?
If Cornelius was saved by Holy Spirit baptism, why was water baptism commanded? (Ac. 10:47-48). Baptism in the name of the Lord was for the remission of his sins (Ac. 2:38).
Water baptism is for salvation or remission of sins (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; Mk. 16:16;1 Pet. 3:20-21)

Water Baptism:

Passages specifically mentioning water: Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:20-21; Ac. 8:36,38; Eph. 5:26.

Holy Spirit Baptism:

The baptism of he Holy Spirit could only be administered by Christ (Mt. 3:11). As already noted, Holy Spirit baptism was not commanded and was not for the purpose of salvation.
Its purpose was to:
(1) Reveal truth (Jn. 16:13; 14:26) and
(2) confirm truth (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4)

2 Examples of Holy Spirit Baptism:

(1) The apostles in Ac.2

The purpose: to empower the apostles as "witnesses" (Ac. 1:8)

(2) The Gentiles in Ac. 10-11

The purpose: to show that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance
unto life." (Ac. 11:18)

The purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism has been fulfilled!
Since its purpose has been fulfilled, completed, and not needed today, it has ceased.

Since water baptism is "for the remission of sins" and since people still need their sins remitted, then water baptism is still needed today!

Therefore, Water baptism remains and is the one baptism of Eph. 4:5! [/QUOTE]

you sure are zealous for water baptism aren't you. shucks

get back to this

evangelist · Sep 6, 2003

One Baptism (Eph. 4:5)

What is the one baptism of Eph. 4:5?
Eph. 4:5 says there is one baptism. What is this one baptism? Is it water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

ans:Holy Spirit baptism

The one baptism of Eph. 4:5 is the one that still remains:
The great commission baptism (Matt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15-16) would last till the end of the world. Which baptism is it? Can we establish 2 things from Mt. 28:19-20 and Mk. 16:15-16?
The baptism of the great commission is the one:
(1) Jesus commanded (Mt. 28:19-20) and
(2) is for salvation (Mk. 16:16).

answer Evangelist: I see this as the spiritual baptism which counts for God Kingdom, and the baptism is from the heart.

Now keep those 2 things in mind!

Water baptism is commanded; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT commanded:
Holy Spirit baptism was a promise, but never commanded! If it was, where is the passage? Jesus and the apostles commanded water baptism (Ac. 10:48; Jn. 3:5)

Water baptism is for salvation; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT for salvation:

Answer evangelist:
John water baptism is the old testament baptism, but now we have a promised baptism that will last forever and that is the spiritual baptism which is for the soul and spirit.
the water baptism of John the baptist was the outward work of baptism which we have now in our hearts, when we are baptized in Christ, and His blood.
John has mention this baptism in Joh:1:33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost

Holy Spirit baptism was not given for the purpose of salvation! If it was, where is the passage?
If Cornelius was saved by Holy Spirit baptism, why was water baptism commanded? (Ac. 10:47-48). Baptism in the name of the Lord was for the remission of his sins (Ac. 2:38).
Water baptism is for salvation or remission of sins (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; Mk. 16:16;1 Pet. 3:20-21)

Answer evangelist
He was saved by the born again salvation not in the natural new birth according to John 3:5.

Water Baptism:

Passages specifically mentioning water: Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:20-21; Ac. 8:36,38; Eph. 5:26.

Answer Evangelist:I hope you are not thinking everytime wateris mention is about a water baptism, and remember the bible was called also the water, or our bread, food, milk and etc.

Holy Spirit Baptism:

The baptism of he Holy Spirit could only be administered by Christ (Mt. 3:11). As already noted, Holy Spirit baptism was not commanded and was not for the purpose of salvation.
Its purpose was to:
(1) Reveal truth (Jn. 16:13; 14:26) and
(2) confirm truth (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4)

2 Examples of Holy Spirit Baptism:

(1) The apostles in Ac.2

The purpose: to empower the apostles as "witnesses" (Ac. 1:8)

(2) The Gentiles in Ac. 10-11

The purpose: to show that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance
unto life." (Ac. 11:18)

The purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism has been fulfilled!
Since its purpose has been fulfilled, completed, and not needed today, it has ceased.

Since water baptism is "for the remission of sins" and since people still need their sins remitted, then water baptism is still needed today!

Question by evangelist:

What does the blood of Jesus does for us???

Does the blood of Jesus need water to wash people sins away???

Is forgiveness of our sins done first by water or repentance???

What is more important to our salvation the blood of Jesus our the water baptism???

God Bless

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
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Promised in John made real in Acts 2
1 cor 12:13 spirit baptized us in Christ/body which is the Church

Here is the question. How does the one Spirit baptize a person into the one body (or the church) in 1 Cor.12:13? Sometimes it is hard to understand the fragments of your thoughts - - but it is clear by your numerous postings that you believe it is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Is that what happened to you? Were you baptized in the Holy Spirit? In Acts 2, when the Holy Spirit baptism came upon the apostles, they spoke in other tongues (languages). In Act 10, when the Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius and his household, they also spoke in tongues. These are the only two examples of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament. Did you speak in tongues?

Let me suggest another possibility for the role of the Holy Spirit plays in baptism in 1 Cor.12:13. The Holy Spirit (Comforter) was promised to the apostles to teach them all things and bring to their remembrance all things that Jesus said (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit came upon the apostles in Acts 2. Peter, under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit, taught that baptism (and repentance) was necessary for the remission of sins (vs.38). What baptism was he teaching? Holy Spirit baptism? Whatever baptism it was, it was a command for the Jews to obey - - "repent and be baptized" is a command. Whatever baptism you decide it was will harmonize with other scriptures - - "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God" (2 Tim.3:16-17). Consider the baptism that Peter, still under direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, commanded to the Gentiles in Acts 10 - - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized? . . . And he commanded them to be baptized" (verses 47-48). In Acts 8, Philip, also under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (vs. 29), preached Jesus (vs.35). Following Philip's teaching, the eunuch inquires about being baptized. What baptism did he request from Philip's (really the Holy Spirit's) teaching? Was it Holy Spirit baptism? Or baptism in water? It was baptism in water (vs.36,38-39). {Also notice what was required of the eunuch before Philip could baptize him - - faith or belief (vs.37). This harmonized perfectly with Jesus' words, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk.16:16).} Now, go back to Acts 2. What happened to those Jews that obeyed Peter's teaching in vs.38? They were added to the church in verse 47 (KJV & NKJV). This is the process that 1 Cor. 12:13 is alluding to - - not that the Holy Spirit baptized them into the one body (church) with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that the one Spirit, through the word that he inspired, baptized both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles), bringing them together into one body.

Water baptism is for salvation; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT for salvation:

Holy Spirit baptism was not given for the purpose of salvation! If it was, where is the passage?
If Cornelius was saved by Holy Spirit baptism, why was water baptism commanded? (Ac. 10:47-48). Baptism “in the name of the Lord” was for the remission of his sins (Ac. 2:38).
Water baptism is for salvation or remission of sins (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; Mk. 16:16;1 Pet. 3:20-21)

Water Baptism:

Passages specifically mentioning water: Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:20-21; Ac. 8:36,38; Eph. 5:26.

Holy Spirit Baptism:

The baptism of he Holy Spirit could only be administered by Christ (Mt. 3:11). As already noted, Holy Spirit baptism was not commanded and was not for the purpose of salvation.
It’s purpose was to:
(1) Reveal truth (Jn. 16:13; 14:26) and
(2) confirm truth (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4)

2 Examples of Holy Spirit Baptism:

(1) The apostles in Ac.2

The purpose: to empower the apostles as "witnesses" (Ac. 1:8)

(2) The Gentiles in Ac. 10-11

The purpose: to show that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance
unto life." (Ac. 11:18)

The purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism has been fulfilled!
Since it’s purpose has been fulfilled, completed, and not needed today, it has ceased.

Since water baptism is "for the remission of sins" and since people still need their sins remitted, then water baptism is still needed today!

Therefore, Water baptism remains and is the “one baptism” of Eph. 4:5!

you sure are zealous for water baptism aren't you. shucks

He sure is! It is because he knows where "preaching Jesus" will lead the one who is searching for truth (Acts 8:35-39).

get back to this

Brethren,

I pulled this text from a response you sent to Hebrews-12-2. He was asking you to identify the one baptism of Eph.4:5. You did not do that! You persist with the idea that there are two relevant baptisms today - - one in water and a separate one by the Holy Spirit. Your teaching (?) clearly does not harmonize with this passage in Ephesians. Honest and sincere bible students answer questions about their beliefs and teaching (1 Pet.3:15). Just as Hebrews asked for your understanding of the one baptism in Eph.4:5, I am asking the same.

FC

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

evangelist said:
Has anybody here ever heard of the Churches of Christ???

The apostle Paul did. He wrote about the churches of Christ in Romans
16:1-16? Of course, you being an evangelist, already knew that . . . didn't you?

This is a church that believes water baptism is a part of repentance , and you need water to be saved.

I personally have never heard any member of the Lord's church teach that water baptism is a part of repentance. Baptism is a completely separate action from repentance.

Perhaps you can tell us how you "preach Jesus". If you're not familiar with that phrase, it is found in Acts 8:35. And, if you read the passage, continue reading vs. 36-39 to see what was included in teaching Jesus?

Does anybody know more about them???

May I suggest where to find information? Why not look in your New Testament? Of course, you being an evangelist . . . already knew that!

God Bless

Evangelist,

This is your 4th. posting that I can recall on this thread. You have yet to use the first scriptural reference. What church are you an evangelist for?

FC

I also posted a response to one of your previous memos. I am interested in seeing your response.

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 6, 2003

Fat_N_Friendly said:
After reading most of the thread there is one thing that comes to mind. It is a Reliant K lyric, "The enemy is much ignored while we fight this Christian cival war". you people are fighting and arguing. Fact it, you are not going to change each others minds, its as simple as that. no matter how much scripture or opinion you post, each of you has your own belief and its not changing.
The reason we have over 34,000 denominations of Christianity is because we are petty!! There is supposed to be ONE CHURCH, not 34,000. It tuly sickens me how Christians act towards one another. I thought that Jesus said to "Love your neighbor as yourself" not "Argue with eachother and try to prove eachother wrong and make eacother feel like ****!!!" So please, don't debate eachother over stupid things, show eachother Love and give eachother Hugs.

lol now thats a good joke in my book.....me stop argueing....hmm well buddy me along with a few others have our scriptures.... One can not become Saved without hearing believeing and repenting and confessing and becomeing baptized and living faithfully....anyone who does not do these 6 simple things well....FACT is your not a Christian with out them...Anyone can put me down. Fact is cant to it any other way...Only one way to become a Christian look at the conversions! Paul debate with many people......argued what ever u wanna call it.....was that civil war???? nope... he touched the heard of many could and well all of them followed those 6 steps.......cant pick and choose what you want.....Cant throw baptism out.... and as far as denominations i believe them to be a sinful act of Satan.....

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of flesh

Matt 7:21 not everyone that saith Lord[master] Lord[master shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

but he that doeth the will of my Father

matt 7:22 these people did many wonderful works

matt 7:23 I never knew you, depart from me , ye that work iniquity [lawlessness]

trying to work[by the flesh] their way to get to heaven with out God. You seemed to make several accurate observations about Matt.7:21-23. But not on this point. Jesus did not say they were trying to work their way to heaven! He said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven." (vs.21). These people were calling out, "Lord, Lord," but not doing God's will. They were lacking something - - they had not done what God required them to do! Jesus is the "author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him" (Heb.5:9). It is not enough to say, "Lord, Lord." His commands must also be obeyed - - Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47, Acts 22:16.

what is Spirit? walking, in Spirit ect..

John 4:23 But the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Eph 4:23 And be renewed by the spirit of your mind
1 cor 2:9-12
1 thes 5:23 ...man made up of body soul and spirit
only spirit saved now body and soul at the rapture

soulish psalms 57:6, 2cor 10:4-5...emotions

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 6, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
lol now thats a good joke in my book.....me stop argueing....hmm well buddy me along with a few others have our scriptures.... One can not become Saved without hearing believeing and repenting and confessing and becomeing baptized and living faithfully....anyone who does not do these 6 simple things well....FACT is your not a Christian with out them...Anyone can put me down. Fact is cant to it any other way...Only one way to become a Christian look at the conversions! Paul debate with many people......argued what ever u wanna call it.....was that civil war???? nope... he touched the heard of many could and well all of them followed those 6 steps.......cant pick and choose what you want.....Cant throw baptism out.... and as far as denominations i believe them to be a sinful act of Satan.....

needless to say, we have our scriptures as well.

You must realize that you just can't expect someone to change their beleifes just by posting scritpure when the other person has just as much scriptural evidence as you do.

You also sound as if you enjoy aregueing and debating... That is not the right attitude by far.
Paul tells us in Timothy that we are to fight the good fight of faith... sorry, but throwing scriptures at people and saying they are wrong is NOT god.

Fat n friendly said it perfectly but you prolly didn't acknowledge him due to that fact he didn't put a reference on this scripture:
1 Corinthians 10:24, just happpens to be my memo verse for this week:
"Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor."

God wants us to love each other. You have your beleifes, I have mine, everyone has their own. If you are to get an open door to share your beleifes with someone then yeah, open door. However, that does not mean you go around argueing your beliefes where you can start a fight. You almost sound like a bully... may sound lame, but I don't have a better word choice.

I know scripture well enough to know that there is a time and place and way to present it, and if I do not present it correctly, it could serverly damage someone. The word of God is the most powerful weapon ever, as I am sure you know, please use it wisely, and when needed.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 6, 2003

"Paul debate with many people......argued what ever u wanna call it"
I will disagee, he corrected his followers that were of his church body. He was their authority.

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

evangelist said:
“One Baptism” (Eph. 4:5)
What is the “one baptism” of Eph. 4:5?
Eph. 4:5 says there is “one baptism”. What is this “one baptism”? Is it water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

ans:Holy Spirit baptism

The “one baptism” of Eph. 4:5 is the one that still remains:
The great commission baptism (Matt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15-16) would last till “the end of the world”. Which baptism is it? Can we establish 2 things from Mt. 28:19-20 and Mk. 16:15-16?
The baptism of the great commission is the one:
(1) Jesus “commanded” (Mt. 28:19-20) and
(2) is for “salvation” (Mk. 16:16).

answer Evangelist: I see this as the spiritual baptism which counts for God Kingdom, and the baptism is from the heart.

How does your answer compare to what is easily understood in Acts 8:35-39? It doesn't harmonize at all. The baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch is clearly in water - - it is not spiritual. Now, it is true that there is quite a bit of spiritual significance that takes place in baptism. That is explained in Romans 6:3-11. It is simplified in John 3:3-5.

Now keep those 2 things in mind!

Water baptism is commanded; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT commanded:
Holy Spirit baptism was a promise, but never “commanded”! If it was, where is the passage? Jesus and the apostles commanded water baptism (Ac. 10:48; Jn. 3:5)

Water baptism is for salvation; Holy Spirit baptism is NOT for salvation:

Answer evangelist:
John water baptism is the old testament baptism, but now we have a promised baptism that will last forever and that is the spiritual baptism which is for the soul and spirit.
the water baptism of John the baptist was the outward work of baptism which we have now in our hearts, when we are baptized in Christ, and His blood.

John's baptism was to to prepare the Jews for the coming Messiah - - it was a baptism of repentance (Matt.3:2). Acts 19:1-5 clearly shows that there is a difference in the baptism of John and the baptism required to put one into Christ. The baptism that results from the gospel of Christ is a baptism in water, but it is not the same as the baptism of John.

John has mention this baptism in Joh:1:33: And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Holy Spirit baptism was not given for the purpose of salvation! If it was, where is the passage?
If Cornelius was saved by Holy Spirit baptism, why was water baptism commanded? (Ac. 10:47-48). Baptism “in the name of the Lord” was for the remission of his sins (Ac. 2:38).
Water baptism is for salvation or remission of sins (Ac. 2:38; 22:16; Mk. 16:16;1 Pet. 3:20-21)

Answer evangelist
He was saved by the born again salvation not in the natural new birth according to John 3:5.

Water Baptism:

Passages specifically mentioning water: Jn. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:20-21; Ac. 8:36,38; Eph. 5:26.

Answer Evangelist:I hope you are not thinking everytime wateris mention is about a water baptism, and remember the bible was called also the water, or our bread, food, milk and etc.

It seems logical for a bible student to conclude that the baptism required to obey Jesus is a baptism in water - - John 3:3-5, Acts 8:35-39, Acts 10:47-48, & 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Holy Spirit Baptism:

The baptism of he Holy Spirit could only be administered by Christ (Mt. 3:11). As already noted, Holy Spirit baptism was not commanded and was not for the purpose of salvation.
It’s purpose was to:
(1) Reveal truth (Jn. 16:13; 14:26) and
(2) confirm truth (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4)

2 Examples of Holy Spirit Baptism:

(1) The apostles in Ac.2
The purpose: to empower the apostles as "witnesses" (Ac. 1:8)

(2) The Gentiles in Ac. 10-11
The purpose: to show that "God also to the Gentiles granted repentance
unto life." (Ac. 11:18)

The purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism has been fulfilled!
Since it’s purpose has been fulfilled, completed, and not needed today, it has ceased.

Since water baptism is "for the remission of sins" and since people still need their sins remitted, then water baptism is still needed today!

Question by evangelist:

What does the blood of Jesus does for us???

According to Eph.1:7, it offers redemption, or the forgiveness of sins. Note: in this verse, it is "in Him [in Christ]," where this blessing takes place. How does one get into Christ? Gal.3:27 says that baptism puts one INTO Christ. Now, perhaps you can see the scriptural relationship between the blood of Christ and baptism.

Does the blood of Jesus need water to wash people sins away???

Did the 8 souls on the ark need water to save them? No. But it did. Study 1 Pet.3:20-21 and you will see the same principle use for baptism.

Is forgiveness of our sins done first by water or repentance???

The order that Peter gave in Acts 2:38 was that repentance comes first.

What is more important to our salvation the blood of Jesus our the water baptism???

You want to make these totally separate issues. They are not totally separate. They are related. Without the blood of Christ, neither the Gentiles or Jews could be brought to God (Eph.2:13). Notice again the terminology use in that verse - - "in Christ Jesus" the Ephesians were brought close to God by the blood of Christ. Then we should end up asking ourselves once again how we get into Christ. Gal.3:27, once again, says that we are baptized into Christ.

God Bless

Evangelist,

This is the third time that I've responded to your posts. I have yet to see you use a scripture. I am going to ask you some quesions. I have not looked at your profile yet. I am NOT trying to be smart or cute, and I do not intend this to be a put-down. I just want an honest answer to some questions. So, here goes . . . are you really an evangelist? If so, how long? And for what church? And is that church affiliated with a denomination? If so, which one?

FC

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
needless to say, we have our scriptures as well.

You must realize that you just can't expect someone to change their beleifes just by posting scritpure when the other person has just as much scriptural evidence as you do.

You also sound as if you enjoy aregueing and debating... That is not the right attitude by far.
Paul tells us in Timothy that we are to fight the good fight of faith... sorry, but throwing scriptures at people and saying they are wrong is NOT god.

I agree with you . . . to some extent. We should be careful how we present ourselves and our reasoning. But the bottom line is, no matter what you say, or how you say it, it will not please everybody. Good bible students have to discipline themselves to teach as Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets taught.

Jesus used scriptural references to combat error (Matt.4:4,7,10 & Matt.22:32). And he wasn't always particularly flattering when he taught (Matt.23:13-33.

Fat n friendly said it perfectly but you prolly didn't acknowledge him due to that fact he didn't put a reference on this scripture:
1 Corinthians 10:24, just happpens to be my memo verse for this week:
"Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor."

It always good to see folks committing scriptures to memory. One of my favorites is Col.3:17 "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all on the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

God wants us to love each other. You have your beleifes, I have mine, everyone has their own. If you are to get an open door to share your beleifes with someone then yeah, open door. However, that does not mean you go around argueing your beliefes where you can start a fight. You almost sound like a bully... may sound lame, but I don't have a better word choice.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief - - as long as it is the "one faith" of Eph.4:5. True. There is a real difference between someone looking to promote themselves and someone seeking to use every opportunity to "preach the word" (2 Tim.4:2).

I know scripture well enough to know that there is a time and place and way to present it, and if I do not present it correctly, it could serverly damage someone. The word of God is the most powerful weapon ever, as I am sure you know, please use it wisely, and when needed.

Good point.

Arch,

Although your comments were directed to Debater, I shared some thoughts.

FC

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 6, 2003

Glad we agree, FC

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 6, 2003

FC do you believe in the trinity?

reason why..I asked

Did you know that we are in Christ and Christ is in the Father and since the Father ... and since it is a trinity the Holy Spirit is also inside of us since we are the temple each one of every believer... whether carnal or spiritual

why is this important explains Baptism and gifts 1 cor 12:5-11 different works from spirit but not the same....reason for tongues was for the Jews 1cor 14:22,1 cor 1:22, every place where tongue accure there are Jews present...

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 6, 2003

quote #572 from FC

jesus used scriputal referances to combat error....

YET did he harmonize?

one verse usually perfect in every response I believe

yet you can't handle Romans 4:5 eph 2:8 with james 2

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 6, 2003

hebrew
WITH BAPTISM if the trinity lives inside of every believer since being put into Christ by the Holy Spirit

do not every believer has the spirit to guide us to perfection

how can man chose to do right with out God's Guidance......like water baptism since we are enemies of God till belief which is savaltion

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
hebrew
WITH BAPTISM if the trinity lives inside of every believer since being put into Christ by the Holy Spirit

do not every believer has the spirit to guide us to perfection

how can man chose to do right with out God's Guidance......like water baptism since we are enemies of God till belief which is savaltion

Christians plant the seed and water it......the seed will grow slowly but it will become full bloom... We plant the seed into a human.....and he will hear it and either produce or he wont........

Fat_N_Friendly · Sep 6, 2003

I want to say that in my previous post the edited word is not the vulgar one that it appears to be. it is instead another word that begins in a C and ends in a rap. if this word offends you then I am sorry.

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
quote #572 from FC

jesus used scriputal referances to combat error....

YET did he harmonize?

one verse usually perfect in every response I believe

yet you can't handle Romans 4:5 eph 2:8 with james 2

Brethren,

Speaking of harmony:
I pulled the text below from post #565. You haven't harmonized your belief of two baptisms with the one baptism in Eph.4:5. How many times does a teacher have to be asked to explain themselves? Heed the warning of James 3:1.

From post #565:
I pulled this text from a response you sent to Hebrews-12-2. He was asking you to identify the one baptism of Eph.4:5. You did not do that! You persist with the idea that there are two relevant baptisms today - - one in water and a separate one by the Holy Spirit. Your teaching (?) clearly does not harmonize with this passage in Ephesians. Honest and sincere bible students answer questions about their beliefs and teaching (1 Pet.3:15). Just as Hebrews asked for your understanding of the one baptism in Eph.4:5, I am asking the same.

FC

Florida College · Sep 6, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
quote #572 from FC

jesus used scriputal referances to combat error....

YET did he harmonize?

one verse usually perfect in every response I believe

yet you can't handle Romans 4:5 eph 2:8 with james 2

Brethren,

Below are questions asked by an "evangelist" with my responses in orange font. Perhaps, you would be so kind as to point out where things weren't handled properly. I discuss Rom.4:5, Eph.2:8-9, and James 2.

FC

Originally Posted By: evangelist

Water baptism is a work is this true?

Yes. Baptism is a work.
This is what I based my conclusion on: The Greek noun that is frequently tranlated “work” in the New Testament is “ergon.” Ergon is defined in Young’s Analytical Concordance as work, a deed, or business; Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines it as work, employment, or a task. Ergon appears 176 times in the KJV of the N.T. It is tranlated “work” 152 times, “deed” 22 times, “doing” 1 time, and “labour” 1 time (according to Strong’s). It is translated “deed” in Col.3:17, “And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.” Since baptism is a deed that is done “in the name of the Lord” (by his authority), then baptism is a work.

We are saved by grace , and if baptism is a work then this work will cancel out grace is this true??

Yes. I do believe we are saved by grace i.e. Rom.3:4, Eph.2:8-9, Titus 3:7. But I do NOT believe that grace is the only factor in man’s salvation. Titus 2:11 says, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (NKJV). But I conclude that all men will not be saved when I read Matt. 7:13-14, “Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Therefore, the understanding is that man is saved by grace, but NOT by grace alone.

Does baptism cancel out grace? We have previously determined that man is saved by grace, but NOT saved by grace alone. So, it must be concluded that other factors are involved in man’s salvation. What are those factors? A quick reading of Eph.2:8-9 or Rom.4:2-5 would lead us to eliminate all works: thus, we are saved by faith. Correct? End of story. Right? Not quite. We have already concluded that baptism is a work (ergon). Correct? But, according to John 6:28-29, Faith is also a work! “Then they said to Him, ‘what shall we do, that we may work [ergon] the works of God.’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work [ergon] of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” The work God required was to believe in Jesus. Faith, or belief is a work (ergon) or deed that is required. So, as you can see, the original question has become a little more complicated, hasn’t it? If we reason that baptism (a work) cancels out grace, the same logic demands that belief (a work) cancels out grace. So, what are we to do? Heb. 11:6 plainly says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him.” What a dilemma?

At this point, I would be compelled to go back and read and study Eph.2:8-9 and Rom. 4:2-5 more diligently. I would also pull out a study aid that would help me find other places in the N.T. where other scriptures discussed works and grace, or works and faith. James 2:14-26 would really open my eyes if I concluded salvation involved no works at all. And if I was a really an attentive bible student, I would recognize that Rom.4:2-5 and James 2:21-24 seem to contradict each other. But because I understood that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Tim.3:16), I would realize that the fault would not lie in the holy scriptures, but that the fault would lie somewhere in my understanding. Studying Rom. chapter 3 and on into chapter 4 would make me realize that the works being discussed are circumcision and works required under the law of Moses. I would then study James 2, concluding that Abraham's works involved doing what God told him to (vs.21) - - to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. As I used my study aids, I would discover the depth of Abraham’s faith as he obeyed God (Heb.11:17-19). Then I would study Eph.2:8-9, concluding that the works being discussed are works that men could boast about - - or works of human merit. I might be a little confused when I studied the works of righteousness in Titus 3:5, but when I remembered that Cornelius (in Act 10) was a devout man that performed righteous works, I would realize that his works of righteousness alone were not enough to save him - - he needed the gospel of Christ.

And as I sat back and allowed all that I had studied about the relationship of works and grace, and works and faith, to soak in, I would turn to turn to Matt.7:21 and read that passage. “Not everyone that says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Okay, now I understand how it works. Salvation comes by the grace of God, not by circumcision, works under the law of Moses, human works, or works of righteousness. But according to what Jesus said in Matt.7:21, I have to do the Father’s will, or what God requires of me - - just like Abraham in James 2:24. As I consider what God requires today under the law of Christ, I conclude that after hearing the gospel, faith is required (John 3:16 ; Mk.16:16), repentance is required (Lk.13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30), confession of Jesus is required (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom.10:9 ; Acts 8:37), and baptism is required (Mk.16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16) to become a Christian. Now, I can take comfort in these words, “He became the author of eternal life unto all who obey him” (Heb.5:9).

After I have obeyed the Lord by doing all that he has initially commanded me to do to become a Christian, I have nothing to boast about - - and I have earned nothing - - I have simply done what God requires of me.

I then study the fall of Jericho is Joshua chapter 6. God said that he gave the Israelites the city in vs.2. But then he had commandments that they needed to obey before he gave them the city. The story is interesting and boosts my faith. I think I will share it with my friends who misunderstand the nature of the works that God’s requires of his people today.

So, to answer your question, “Does baptism cancel out grace?” The anwer is NO. It doesn’t. Baptism is an act of faith (Col.2:12) that puts one INTO Christ (Gal.3:26-27), where she/he will have redemption through his blood (Eph.1:7). Can anyone claim redemption without the blood of Christ (1 Pet.1:18-19)?

If we believe and fall in Love with Christ then after we will want to do what ever pleases Christ, and that includ, bible study, going to church , and you will want to pray, and love to trust God, and His Word, and help the poor and homeless, and in your christian walk get baptized as a step as following jesus and showing that you are buried in Christ.

God Bless

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