Is baptism necessary to be saved?

heb12-2 · Sep 5, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
you can't take a hint can you, heb?

I understand that you post in the debate section, but you don't want to debate. You don't want to deal with the scriptures that are presented. You just like giving your opinions and smearing people.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 5, 2003

I do beleive this is also a discussion thread too....

And smearing people???

What is "smearing" and secondly, how am I doing that.

heb12-2 · Sep 5, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
You're truly going all out, aren't ya heb?

Whether you realize or not, I do care for you Arch.

If I could count the times you have said that you are not going to post any more and then you keep posting, so I think, hey, maybe he hasn't given up yet. Maybe there's still hope for the guy. So I keep posting.

So I just continue my job as seed-thrower and water boy (1 Cor. 3:6-7), hoping and praying that you will stop dodging the truth, and that you will allow the seed to be planted in your heart.

Will you not "gladly receive his word"? (Ac. 2:41)

heb12-2 · Sep 5, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I do beleive this is also a discussion thread too....

Ok, so let's have some discussion then. That's what I've been asking you for.

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Sep 5, 2003

lol this happened when this thread first started... remember?

The only reason why I got into the debate to begin with was b/c aggie asked me and his intentions was more pleasing.

I do thank you for your help, but I personally know that I am in no need of help. And it's 2 AM, its a bit late for a disucssion.

However, I have a thread about the Arch Angel if you like to discuss it. It may not be your fav thing to talk about, but hey, baptism sure isn't my fav thing.
As I have said in the very beginning: how you say something is even more important than what you say.

I pictured you as an equal, but you view me as someone in need, help, someone who does not know what he is doing, misguided, in the end... heh...

I have lived your beliefes once, and I found it lacking, and still do today.
However, your beliefes have nothing to do with how I veiw you, but the way you present your beleifes does.
Out of all the people here, I had the hardest time discussing this issue with you.

I am not making this thread any more a cirlce then anyone else how has been debating in it. However, there are a few people who do make it little bit more pleasent

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

Hmm... lets see. Thing is do we all agree that Baptism is a command??? I hope we do....considering Christ commanded it-John 3:5/Matthew 28:18-20/Mark 16:16....... So since water Baptism is a command and well Heb plainly stated that it was the same baptism in Ephesians 4:5.....let me ask this,,,, Is sin Disobeying God/Jesus? I believe is is... Thefore if we do not become baptized we have no followed the command and we have sinned and live in sin till we do.....have the sins washed away....by baptism...But you dont want to die without hearing,believing,repenting,confession,baptism because you then Die in your sins......

James plainly states Faith without Works is Dead....

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 5, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
repentance and confession are equal here .....

question is How does an ungodly man believe God?

John 6:29 this is God's work
why Romans 3:10-11 man can't believe God on his own
1 cor 2:10 spirit searcheth all things of God
Eph 1:4 Father hath chose us before the foundations of the world
Eph 2:4-9why one person over another..mercy and grace fromGod
eph 2:9 given faith to believe from H.S. Galation 5:22
Romans 5:8 when we where sinners Christ died for us.
1cor15:2-4 son die.. we can have ability to have God's kind of life
John 16:7-11 holy spirit calls us to believe that God did it all
John 16:13 Holy spirit guides us to the truth
Romans 4:5 no work and I believe counted righteous

FC here you go
eph1:13are sealed after we believed by H.S. into Christ bybaptism
1 cor 12:13 baptized into christ by the Spirit Galations
Once in Christ even though children of God in actions....... ............God calls us sons in Gal 4:6-7 which means we have an inheritanceand privelges
...............to grow by Grace in 2 peter 3:18
...............not laws or commandments Romans 3:20,31..
..............Do you under stand Romans 6:11 reckon your self dead
..............Eph 1:3 God says good things in the heavenlys
...............eph 2:6 made us sit together in heavenly places
...............made us high priest so that we could be close to Christ
hebrew 2:17,3:1,4:15,7:26....6:19
Romans 8:29-30 once in Christ God perfects us over his time table

postitional truth is what Christ says that we will be perfect and in him
...we are when we are spiritual right know....But most of the time we are carnal and enemies of God Gal 4:29, 5:16, Romans 8:5-13, 2 tim 3:12 ,gal 4:7... and God is big enough to forgive us because he know we will fail him since we are not saved completely yet

John 3:5

bad wording here

born of water and of [even] the Spirit

ignore underlined part

Eph 4:4-6 only one baptism important in salvation
why this verse important shows that two verses condradictwhich is impossible

Ephesians Acts 19:2 already believed then baptism in to Christ is a inheritance of being a son Gal 4:6-7

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 5, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
Hmm... lets see. Thing is do we all agree that Baptism is a command??? I hope we do....considering Christ commanded it-John 3:5/Matthew 28:18-20/Mark 16:16....... So since water Baptism is a command and well Heb plainly stated that it was the same baptism in Ephesians 4:5.....let me ask this,,,, Is sin Disobeying God/Jesus? I believe is is... Thefore if we do not become baptized we have no followed the command and we have sinned and live in sin till we do.....have the sins washed away....by baptism...But you dont want to die without hearing,believing,repenting,confession,baptism because you then Die in your sins......

James plainly states Faith without Works is Dead....

James 2:17 this is too men not God because
according to Romans 4:5 do not work but believe just the oppossite

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
James 2:17 this is too men not God because
according to Romans 4:5 do not work but believe just the oppossite

Believe the opposite???? It quite clearly states in James that Faith without Works is DEAD .....

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith with Works is "PERFECT" vs 22. It also says that faith without works is dead.....

And not to be rude but you have made no since and any of your post Brethren...... James 2:17 is to men not God???? ok.... may i ask why you made this comment???
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
The bible was Made for Man to read not God....so i'm puzzled by the remark which u made.

Florida College · Sep 5, 2003

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I love you florida

We agree

hey, random question: Can a person who is not a medic legally try to help somoene?

Sure. They are legally protected for the biggest part under what is called the Good Samaritan Law (named after the bible account).

Mk. 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
These are the medical protocols under the direction of the Great Physician (Mk.2:17). Just as a medic must follow the medical directions (protocols) of their medical director, the disciple of Jesus must follow the directions of her/his Great Physician. Mark 16:16 is what he sent his apostles into the world to teach "every creature" (NKJV) to do in response to the gospel (Mk. 16:15). Just as a medic that acts outside the medical protocols is subject to decertification and legal action, a disciple that acts without Christ's approval is rejected (Matt. 7:23).

Medics cannot freelance. They can only "practice" under the guidance of a medical director. The same is true of Christians. They must be within the realm of Christ's authority in all that they say and do (Col. 3:17).

Florida College · Sep 5, 2003

[/QUOTE]
What is questionable about these verses?

Baptism "saves us." (1 Pet. 3:21)
Baptism "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38)
baptism to "wash away thy sins" (ac. 22:16)
Baptism to "put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)
Baptism to be "buried with Christ" (Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:3-4)
Baptism to benefit from Christ's resurrection (Rom. 6:5)
Baptism to be "crucified with him" (Rom. 6:6)

What's questionable about that? Sounds pretty clear to me.
[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to comment briefly on your question.

"What is questionable about these verses?"

I believe the answer can be found in 2 Thess. 2:10-12. This passage gets to the "root cause" of why many perish. That is why good bible students are indeed students of the word - - and why they are so persistent and diligent to have scriptural soundness for their faith (Rom.10:17) - - they know their faith has to be based on God's word.

Hebrews,

I pulled this text from one of your responses to A Brethren IN CHRIST.

I am not easily impressed. But your overall reasoning is very good as you help to promote the gospel of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:58

FC

heb12-2 · Sep 5, 2003

Florida College said:
I believe the answer can be found in 2 Thess. 2:10-12. This passage gets to the "root cause" of why many perish.

I believe you hit the nail on the head there.

I am not easily impressed. But your overall reasoning is very good as you help to promote the gospel of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:58

FC

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your comments on this thread too.

Gal. 6:9

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

Hebrew is it just more or is everyone backing off of this subject....seems like fewer people are debating this issue......i suppose and will take it as a good thing....... Hebrew... your doing an awesome work defending baptism!

aggie03 · Sep 5, 2003

I agree that there at those here doing an excellent job, both Florida College and Heb 12-2. Many times I have come to this thread prepared to post in defense of the gospel of Christ, and one of my brothers has more than adequately, and better than I am able, covered the questions raised.

I am very impressed.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 5, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
Believe the opposite???? It quite clearly states in James that Faith without Works is DEAD .....

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith with Works is "PERFECT" vs 22. It also says that faith without works is dead.....

And not to be rude but you have made no since and any of your post Brethren...... James 2:17 is to men not God???? ok.... may i ask why you made this comment???
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
The bible was Made for Man to read not God....so i'm puzzled by the remark which u made.

James 2:17 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

james 2 is dealing with present tense salvation[whether we experience eternal life right now] not initial salvation [put into Christ]

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
James 2:17 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

james 2 is dealing with present tense salvation[whether we experience eternal life right now] not initial salvation [put into Christ]

Hmm even more confusing......Faith and works comes into action when becoming a christian......Not after Salvation.... We cant save our selves! Jesus saves us...... We must hear believe repent confess and become baptized.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

hmmm i believe your stretching this verse to limits which the verse doesn't state......no where does it mention anything about being saved already.... This verse comes into effect once one starts to become a christian no after....... i personally believe ur twisting the verse.....

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 5, 2003

What is questionable about these verses?

Baptism "saves us." (1 Pet. 3:21)[/quote]

1 peter 3:21 once again babies are baptised with water all the time are they saved? no it is a personel relationship with God..

Noah was saved physically by believing[saved..romans 4:5] God and building a boat[work james 2] easy....We believe that God does all the work[romans 4:5] love fellow believers like Christ loved us [john 13:34-35,Gal 6:10,ect....]

Baptism "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38)

Click to expand...

This happens when in order please....Vs 37 HS working in their minds ...doing what....John 16:7-11 ...repent is changing ones mind then be baptised.....gift from HS what that Romans 12, 1cor 12-14,

vs 41 and they recieved the word [believed] first then baptised

baptism to "wash away thy sins" (ac. 22:16)

Click to expand...

.....by calling on the name of the Lord...Romans 3:10-11..2cor 2:10....

Baptism to "put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)

Click to expand...

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ....no water 1 cor 12:13 Holy Spirit does all this

Baptism to be "buried with Christ" (Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:3-4)

Click to expand...

where is water baptism in dirt? this too by spirit 1 cor 12:13

Baptism to benefit from Christ's resurrection (Rom. 6:5)

Click to expand...

how baptism man baptism do this ? can't 1 cor 12:13

Baptism to be "crucified with him" (Rom. 6:6)

ditto

What's questionable about that? Sounds pretty clear to me.
[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to comment briefly on your question.

"What is questionable about these verses?"

I believe the answer can be found in 2 Thess. 2:10-12. This passage gets to the "root cause" of why many perish. That is why good bible students are indeed students of the word - - and why they are so persistent and diligent to have scriptural soundness for their faith (Rom.10:17) - - they know their faith has to be based on God's word.

Hebrews,

I pulled this text from one of your responses to A Brethren IN CHRIST.

I am not easily impressed. But your overall reasoning is very good as you help to promote the gospel of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:58

FC[/QUOTE]

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

I hope the State ment "Where is Dirt in water baptism" was just a joke...... The water is what were baptized into..... It's the watery grave..... not dirt..... then you ask how can a man be crucified with chirst........The Scriptures plainly teach that we get into Christ through water Baptism................
Reasons For Baptism
1.To make disciples- Matthew 28:!9.
2.To become saved- 1 Peter 3:20-21,Mark 16:16,John 3:5, Acts 2:41.
3.Remission of Sins- 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.
4.Believe and were Baptized- Acts 16:29-34.
5.Shouldn't wait to become baptized- Acts 16:29-34.
6.Walk in the Newness of Life- Romans 6:3-4.
7.Baptized into one spirit- 1 Corinthians 12:13.
8.Dont Baptize the Dead- 1 Corinthians 15:29-30.
9.One Baptism- Ephesians 4:5.
10.Get into Christ-Galations 3:27, Colossians 2:12.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Sep 5, 2003

ChurchOfChristDebator said:
Hmm even more confusing......Faith and works comes into action when becoming a christian......Not after Salvation.... We cant save our selves! Jesus saves us...... We must hear believe repent confess and become baptized.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

hmmm i believe your stretching this verse to limits which the verse doesn't state......no where does it mention anything about being saved already.... This verse comes into effect once one starts to become a christian no after....... i personally believe ur twisting the verse.....

Christ was buried in a rich man grave in a cave no dirt buddy

goto James 1:2 my brethren....believers wow

or lets goto
Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of flesh.

two ways to walk

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit even so it is now..

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death[seperation from God]; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

see that how a believer can be carnal and an enemy of God yet saved......

so James 2 of your needs more work on your harmonizing

need help just pm me and I will see if I can help

ChurchOfChristDebator · Sep 5, 2003

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
goto James 2 my brethren....

or lets goto
Gal 5:16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of flesh.

two ways to walk

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit even so it is now..

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death[seperation from God]; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

see that how a believer can be carnal and an enemy of God yet saved......

so James 2 of your needs more work on your harmonizing

need help just pm me and I will see if I can help

James 3:10 Out of the same mouth comes forth blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
11 Does a spring send out from the same opening fresh and bitter water?
12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, yield olives, or a vine figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh water.
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by his good conduct that his deeds are done in gentleness of wisdom.
14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, don't boast and don't lie against the truth.
15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, sensual, and demonic.
16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition are, there is confusion and every evil deed.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Well according to these verses your either With God or either your not... you cant be with God and against him at the same time.... it's impossible.....

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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