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Do you know what the word "clearly" means? You are a most confusing Jacob.
You play with words and seem to little understand their meaning or use. For example, you talk about being saved for something, when salvation is most often used to mean FROM something.
The shells keep moving around but the game remains the same. Yet again you fail to see the core epistemological problem. God's Word, God's Message, God's Interpretation, God's Pink Gucci Handbag, who cares? Either way, we're dealing with an Important Thing of God. Since God is perfect and we are not, how can we know that we have determined the IToG correctly? If God is logical then we can at least rule out any illogical claim about the IToG. If God is not deceitful then we can at least rule out any claims about the IToG that contradict our knowledge or experience of the world. And so on. The one thing we can't helpfully do is resort to another IToG (like, say, the Bible) because that is begging the question, just substituting one IToG for another.None of us is right. The Word of God is right. Your problem is that you are trying to see whose interpretation of the Bible is the right one. But I have been telling you all the time that ONLY God's interpretation is right.
OK, so we both claim to have living faith (with some degree of capitalization). Now what? We both understand the Word of God, apparently, but come to different conclusions. Look at that! We're back where we started. How do we determine who has "living faith"? Around and around and around we go, with No True Scotsman fallacies flying off in all directions!So the only difference between someone who understands the Word of God and someone who doesn't is LIVING FAITH.
Red herring. Belief is not the question.You either believe what God is saying or you don't. There is not a third option.
If "God" is so clear, why do believers come to different opinions? Ooh, ooh, I know I know... the ones who don't get the message right are Not True Christians, amIright amIright? So I wonder how we determine who are the True Christians? Would it be the ones who get the message right? Or would that, perhaps, be just a wee bit circular?It's only those who do not believe the Word of God who invent difficulties concerning the meaning of God's Word. God is clear, but the sinner doesn't WANT to believe.
That's lovely. And completely irrelevant to anything in this discussion. But thanks for sharing anyway.It is incredible that God can justify and save the ungodly. But with God all things are possible, and the believer BELIEVES this, because GOD said it, and not a mortal.
Coming back to our topic, Jesus and His Apostles clearly taught us about the importance of baptism. It is your problem if you don't BELIEVE it just because it looks illogical for your fallible human mind.
Sounds like he is saying that he knows Gods interpretation meaning that he is right even though he said none of us is right. I don't know how you manage to keep chasing him in circles without getting dizzy
Since you can not tell me what God is saying and I can not tell me what God is saying... what is God saying?
The shells keep moving around but the game remains the same. Yet again you fail to see the core epistemological problem. God's Word, God's Message, God's Interpretation, God's Pink Gucci Handbag, who cares? Either way, we're dealing with an Important Thing of God. Since God is perfect and we are not, how can we know that we have determined the IToG correctly? If God is logical then we can at least rule out any illogical claim about the IToG. If God is not deceitful then we can at least rule out any claims about the IToG that contradict our knowledge or experience of the world. And so on. The one thing we can't helpfully do is resort to another IToG (like, say, the Bible) because that is begging the question, just substituting one IToG for another.
So when you make some claim, I try to analyze it in terms of logic, reason, experience, etc. But when backed into a corner, you spout the usual defense of "God's wisdom is foolishness", taking logic out of the game altogether, leaving... ? Nothing. Nothing but self confirmation.
OK, so we both claim to have living faith (with some degree of capitalization). Now what? We both understand the Word of God, apparently, but come to different conclusions. Look at that! We're back where we started. How do we determine who has "living faith"? Around and around and around we go, with No True Scotsman fallacies flying off in all directions!
Red herring. Belief is not the question.
If "God" is so clear, why do believers come to different opinions?
Ooh, ooh, I know I know... the ones who don't get the message right are Not True Christians, amIright amIright? So I wonder how we determine who are the True Christians? Would it be the ones who get the message right? Or would that, perhaps, be just a wee bit circular?
Let's face it, in the end all you are saying is "I have the message right, because I'm a True Christian; and I'm a True Christian because I have the message right. Everyone else is wrong because they don't agree with me".
Except that I've seen decent scriptural arguments against the necessity (or whatever neologism you're currently using) of baptism. So much for "clearly". And my problem with logic is not baptism per se, it's your arguments regarding it. So you still can't separate yourself from theology. Interesting.
YAQUBOS;46995499God speaks. You either BELIEVE what He says, or you don't. It's not up to you to decide what He must say or not say. You can't decide what the Word of God must be, because you don't know what God will say until He says it. When He says, you need to believe what He says, and not to oppose it or measure it with your human fallible measures.
Your human logic is fallible. Why don't you follow GOD's logic that is expressed in His Word, the Bible?
But what need do we have to know who has the right conclusion! I am telling you this all the time. Only God knows the hearts. If you have living Faith, then that's enough. Your problem is that you claim to have living faith, and yet you don't show it. You are still discussing the basis of living faith, i.e. the Word of God.
And I didn't talk about belief. I talked about living faith.
And who said that true believers come to different truths?
Only God knows the hearts. And true believers believe what God says.
I am not right, because God is right. And I hope one day you will understand this simple truth and you will be humbled before God Almighty.
I am glad you picked a book NOT written by its purported author and only got into the Canon by a compromise.OK. Now I will give you a verse about the fact that baptism is essential in Salvation. The challenge is to find a similar verse that says that baptism is not so essential:
"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" ( 1 Peter 3:21 )
I am waiting for a verse that says, as much clearly as this verse, that baptism does NOT save you now.
Let's see now if baptism is necessary in Salvation or not...
Didn't you earlier admit that the bible is not The Bible? That the book we have on our shelves is NOT the Word of God but only a human manifestation of God's Word and that it doesn't matter what translation, or what version with what errors we have, God's Word is still there and will speak to us through the Holy Spirit?
OK. You get one meaning from it. I get another. Soul Searcher gets another meaning. Jimmy Swaggart and James Jones and David Koresh and Ted Haggee and John Haggee and Benny Hinn and Billy Graham and James Bakker and Pat Robertson and Pope Benedict 16th, and George W Bush all get different messages from the Bible and The Holy Spirit speaking through it.... so is everyone right? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE?
Which Bible? The Bible or the bible? What the Holy Spirit tells you or me?
It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you really really believe it and follow it... is that it? If you hear the Holy Spirit tell you to jump, don't ask how high, just jump?
Yeah... faith based on what you believe? How can one be different from the other?
Here we are again... does God tell you one thing and me another? Does he tell you to believe and follow every single word in the bible because they are The Bible, and tell me to realize that it is a record of Jewish History written by Jews as they longed for deliverance from exile and re-establishment as a nation?
God is right about what? (Don't say "everything".) Are you contending that everything in the bible, which you believe is The Bible, The Word of God, is God being right?
I am glad you picked a book NOT written by its purported author and only got into the Canon by a compromise.
This verse is so obviously NOT from God... how can you not see it?
Baptism saves you; this clearly means that baptism is NECESSARY or at the very least substitutionary for God's grace.
NO! It is not. It is a reference to the tale of Noah and the great global flood that killed all but 8 souls (psuche). What did the waters of the flood do? It destroyed, it didn't save. The ark saved. The ark... like the Ark of the Covenant? The Law? Baptism is death. It is the symbolic death and resurrection that the ritual of baptism is about. It is a ritual, a ceremony. That is all.
Look back a couple of verses to verse 18. Think very quietly as you read this...
"Dead in the flesh alive in the spirit" (pneuma). What is the verse saying about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection?
Yes , you did you little fibberYAQUBOS;47187808No.
Give a practical example. What you say here is wrong.
The only Bible available.
No, that is not what I said.
Ah, and a reminder: I tell you what I meant when you ask for it.
Faith based on the truth.
God says only one truth, His truth. If you don't believe what He says, you don't hear the truth, but you see in what He says only your wrong conclusions.
God is Himself the Truth. His Word is truth. His Word is right.
So you couldn't meet the challenge, and the verse clearly says that baptism is necessary in Salvation.
N.B.: The verse doesn't say that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation, so I don't see what does this have to do with God's Grace alone being the cause of our Salvation.
Great. So you said that Baptism, just like the Flood, DOES DO something, i.e. death You said that baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation, but it is a necessary part of Salvation. And that's true. That's what the verse says
So, just like the Flood for Noah and those who were with him, baptism is necessary IN Salvation. Without the Flood, why did Noah need to build the Ark? Without baptism, what is Salvation? It is Salvation from what? Not from death?
Have a nice time, but don't oppose the Word of God, because you will fail.
Yes , you did you little fibber
how so?
Are you locked in prison cell or motel room? There are hundreds of bibles available.
You never have
On your truth?
One truth... mankind was created before the animals, and mankind was created after the animals...
Satan caused David to sin, God caused David to sin...
Abraham was justified by faith, Abraham was justified by his actions...
No way to heaven but by the blood of Jesus, Elijah and others went directly to heaven long before Jesus...
yeah... one truth
And you know what that is.... riiiiiiiiiight
Oh now it is necessary "IN" salvation... not essential for, or necessary for.... cute
it symbolic you literal dolt. Wipe that pompous smile off your face and see what a fool you are being.
So says the Word of Yaqubos! BFD
YAQUBOS;47528708
Wrong. There is only ONE Bible available. You are talking about the different versions and translations available. Sorry, but I am talking about the Bible itself.
On the only truth.
God never said that mankind was created before the animals. You see how there is only one truth, and all human imaginations are only lies?
God never caused anyone to sin. You see the lie? Only the use of a verb like "caused", and all is changed...
You see the lie?
Let's forget now about the error you made about Elijah going to Heaven.
But who told you that Elijah goes to Heaven by anything other than the Blood of Jesus Christ?
Because all the other things that you added were human imaginations; the imaginations of people who are not born of God and who don't understand His Word.
. Yes, because God has revealed it. It's not hidden in some dark place
Not now only, but always. It's not the first time I tell you this and you don't hear.
I have none for you or your beliefs...Thank you for your respect.
And thank you for admitting that Noah's Flood is a symbol of baptism.
Those people in the days of Noah DIED by that Flood...
You mock because you fail to oppose the Word of God.
Where is it?
the only truth YOU KNOW...
God created the animals and brought them before Adam BECAUSE Adam was lonely... how was Adam lonely before he existed?
Really? What word is in "the" Bible if it is not caused... incited? Do you know they mean the same thing?
Do you know what blood is? There can not Jesus' blood before Jesus is alive... duh.
Where is Elijah? Where is Elisha?
and you are the fountain of knowledge... if you do not agree with Yaqubos, you are wrong.. who needs God? Just follow Yaqubos.
Then why did he need to reveal it... and to you?
Again you miss the target and hit the barnyard...
I have none for you or your beliefs...
Killed by a symbol... ugh
I mock because you are full of yourself, an egomaniac and blinded by your own self righteousness.
Your arguments are shallow and pointless.
I mock because I oppose the word of Yaqubos, in favor of the Word of God.
YAQUBOS;47719792You don't have a copy of the Bible? Well, there are many Christian ministries that can provide for you a copy.
The truth is revealed, dear friend.
Adam was alone with all those animals who were created already by God. By the way, do you know what is the difference between you and animals? If you know, you will know why you will be alone when you are with an animal...
Where do you read in the Bible that God incited anyone TO SIN?
Do you know what the power of Jesus' blood is?
God is the Fountain of knowledge. You need to follow His Word, the Bible.
He revealed it to everyone, and not only to me. As soon as a ministry will send to you a copy of the Bible, you can open it and read in it the revelation of God.
By the way, God doesn't do things because of a need in Him. He is LOVE. He loves you.
What people? The sinners? All the sinners? The animals? Those sinful animals?See? Actually, those people DIED in that Flood.
No no, you mock because you fail to oppose the Word of God.
By the way, if I were righteous, I wouldn't need the Righteousness of God about which I am telling you.
And mine is apparently different from yours... in fact every edition is different depending upon the translators' preferences.
Really? You are a gnostic, now?
NO I don't. Please tell me the difference between man and other animals.
Already cited several times. God incited David to take a census. That was a major sin for David.
Apparently not. Do you have some mystical response?
His Word, Jesus? The Bible is not God's Word and never claimed to be. The Bible is a compilation of many writings from many different aions and authors. (Compiled by the RCC in the 4th and 5th century AFTER Jesus died.)
Prove it. No, don't even try... demonstrate it.
What people? The sinners? All the sinners? The animals? Those sinful animals?
I mock because I oppose the "word of Yaqubos".
So you ARE righteous, now? Or do you still "require" the righteousness of God? Will God's grace and righteousness ever be enough, or will you always need more of it?
YAQUBOS;47894543What do you mean by "different"? Does your edition say that Jesus is not the Christ and that you are not a sinner who needs Salvation?
Baptism, a representation of the Noahachian flood, is now saving you, not by putting off the filth of the flesh but by the inquiry into God by good conscience, through the upstanding of Jesus Anointed.Concerning our topic, what does your edition say in 1 Peter 3:21 ?
No, the truth is revealed to EVERYONE. You can know it very easily by reading the Bible.
Simple:
"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." ( Genesis 1:27 )
Animals are not created in the image of God.
You see? I didn't quote something hidden or something that only Gnostics know. You could only read the account of Genesis carefully and you would know that man was created in the image of God, male AND female He created THEM, and they are BOTH in the image of God. No animal is in the image of God.
But where did you read that God incited David to do the SIN involved in that census?
Many times God asked leaders of Israel to take a census of the children of Israel, and no one had any problem, and there was no sin in that. Here again, God asked David to take a census, but He did NOT incite him to the sin involved in that census. David sinned by his own will, by listening to Satan.
No need for any mystical response. The Blood of Jesus Christ is not limited for a certain time of history. His Blood is powerful enough to save people, even the people who lived before His coming to the earth, including Elijah.
So Elijah goes to Heaven by the Blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus said that the inspired Scripture is the Word of God. If you have any problem with that, then don't follow Jesus Christ. You are free to choose your god: God, our Father in Jesus Christ, or a god of your imagination.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah, that is eactly what Jesus taught isn't it? Make sure they know you are being loving when you feed the hungry and visit the imprisoned....OK. But make sure you know what the Love of God is, so that you may see it when I demonstrate it.
Those who were not in the Ark. The Ark is a symbol of Christ.
So if you are not in Christ, you will die like them.
No no. I told you: you mock because you fail to oppose the Word of God.
Who is YAQUBOS? "What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one." ( 1 Corinthians 3:5 )
The Bible is not the words of men. It is not the words of Moses, or Paul, or Peter, or John... The Bible is the Word of God that those people wrote for us, and that YAQUBOS is preaching to you. Servants through whom you hear the Word of God. They don't preach their own human words.
I am a justified sinner. I am justified once for all, and that's the Righteousness of God for me. And I always hunger and thirst for God's Righteousness in me, until death, and He satisfies me always; and this is Sanctification.
angrylittlefisherman;47898888This is an answer posted by the user Ephipanius in the St Justin Martyr's corner, in the Ancient Way forum.
I will post it here for you.
This is a rigorously logical argument I have formulated about baptism fleshed out in a series of statements.
Obviously. Does one have to understand who or what "The Christ" is?1. To be a Christian you must love Christ.
False dichotomy... there is no such thing in the Bible as Christ's grace.. it is God's grace, and everyone is covered, God's grace is sufficient.2. People who do not love Christ, hate him and are not under his grace.
That's true of anyone, I suppose...3. Christ states "If you love me, obey my commands".
OK... although I don't agree with this, I'll accept it...4. If you willfully defy the commands of Christ, you do not love him.
5. Christ commands baptism.
Conclusion: If you as a person willfully refuse baptism at a time when it is possible for you to be baptized. You are willfully refusing a command of God and thus you do not love Him. If you do not love Him, you are not a Christian.
DO NOT GIVE ME REPS FOR THIS POST. GIVE THEM TO EPIPHANIUS.
That's a pretty big leap there don't you think. I won't go into the grace part but focus on the love hate portion. You don;t really expect anyone to swallow that someone hates all those who they do not love do you? Is it possible for anyone to love or hate someone that tyhey are unaware of? I would say the answer is a resounding no.2. People who do not love Christ, hate him and are not under his grace.
The commandments were to love one another and not about letting some man sunk you in the river or pour water over your head.3. Christ states "If you love me, obey my commands".
How does baptism equate to love for your fellow man, Jesus said all the commandments hang on this. Baptism is not a part of it. It is simply a ritual preformed by men.4. If you willfully defy the commands of Christ, you do not love him.
5. Christ commands baptism.
Sounds like the conclusion is that those who don't want to be baptised hate Jesus according to the logic above. Sad that people can claim to know Jesus and yet be so far off base.Conclusion: If you as a person willfully refuse baptism at a time when it is possible for you to be baptized. You are willfully refusing a command of God and thus you do not love Him. If you do not love Him, you are not a Christian.
Don;t worry I don;t usually rep nonsense.DO NOT GIVE ME REPS FOR THIS POST. GIVE THEM TO EPIPHANIUS.
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