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Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

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MasterOfKrikkit

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So show me where I ever equated myself with God. If quoting God's Word means for you equating myself to God, then that's your problem with God.

YAQUBOS†

Claiming infallibility puts you equal to God. If you're not claiming to be infallible, where's the evidence that you -- fallible as you are -- didn't get God's Message all wrong? Why is that KCDAD and I are wrong, not you? The only way to demonstrate that is with external verification, logic, etc. You can't appeal to God or God's Message because that would be a certain logical fallacy that we've covered about 15.8 million times already.
 
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ChristianFriend2012

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I've always looked at water baptisms as more of a statement a person makes to their community, to let them know they're repenting and developing a relationship with the Lord. I myself have never had a baptism with water, I don't think it's a requirement at all.
 
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YAQUBOS

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Or (4) you don't understand the Law of the Excluded Middle.

What joy. More word-redefinition fun with Yaqubos. OK, I'll play along: please define "blasphemy" for us (and how equating one's self with God is not blasphemy).

But, regardless of the semantic tapdances that you love so much, the basic logic still remains and you still haven't answered it. Law of the Excluded Middle; there is no option 3: either you are claiming to be infallible or you're not. Now pay attention, here's what I said before:



Strike "you've just blasphemed by" (since you're going to educate us all as the Superspecial meaning of "blaspheme" as dictated by God to Yaqubos, no doubt). The rest still stands. So which is it? Are you fallible or not?

I am fallible. It is the Word of God that is infallible.

Quoting the Word of God is not blasphemy. If you really need to know more about blasphemy, you can open a thread about that.

In this thread we saw that you don't believe the Word of God, so it is not strange if you don't know the importance of baptism. But the Word of God clearly says that baptism is an essential part of Salvation.

YAQUBOS†
 
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YAQUBOS

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Claiming infallibility puts you equal to God. If you're not claiming to be infallible, where's the evidence that you -- fallible as you are -- didn't get God's Message all wrong? Why is that KCDAD and I are wrong, not you? The only way to demonstrate that is with external verification, logic, etc. You can't appeal to God or God's Message because that would be a certain logical fallacy that we've covered about 15.8 million times already.

It is not wrong to believe what God says. You are wrong when you don't believe but you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy.

YAQUBOS†
 
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YAQUBOS

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I've always looked at water baptisms as more of a statement a person makes to their community, to let them know they're repenting and developing a relationship with the Lord. I myself have never had a baptism with water, I don't think it's a requirement at all.

Jesus said:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

YAQUBOS†
 
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KCDAD

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It is not wrong to believe what God says. You are wrong when you don't believe but you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy.

YAQUBOS†
He doesn't oppose the word of God or God or words.. he opposes your dictatorial and self serving interpretation of The Bible.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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And you fail to get the point yet again. Big surprise. OK, let's try once more to see if we can sort this out...

I am fallible. It is the Word of God that is infallible.
Excellent. A nice, simple, straight answer. OK, all those in favor? Aye! Carried. Right, now we agree: you are fallible, God not so much. Let's even keep things simple by working with the axiom that the Bible is infallible also (I assume that's what you mean when you say "the Word of God"; I disagree, but I'm willing to agree for the sake of straightening out this particular point).

Quoting the Word of God is not blasphemy. If you really need to know more about blasphemy, you can open a thread about that.
Oh dear. You were doing so well, too. I never said quoting anything is blasphemy, nor do I want to get into a pointless wrangle about what is and isn't blasphemy. What I was objecting to was equating yourself with God; but you've now said quite clearly that you are not doing that. Great. The whole blasphemy thing is now irrelevant. That should have been obvious from my posts, demonstrating once again that you don't get it -- either you lack in perception or in honesty.

Now, back to the point at hand: what I said (quite clearly & more than once) was either you're fallible or not; if fallible, then... [well, let's just cut'n'paste since I've said it already]:

you are a mortal just like me, KCDAD, SS, etc etc, and just as likely to have gotten The Message wrong [therefore] there's no reason for us to believe that you're right and we're wrong, without external justification.
and
where's the evidence that you -- fallible as you are -- didn't get God's Message all wrong? Why is that KCDAD and I are wrong, not you? The only way to demonstrate that is with external verification, logic, etc. You can't appeal to God or God's Message because that would be [begging the question]

So. Now that you've stated clearly that you are indeed fallible, please answer these questions. To make it even clearer, if I can...

You =/= God's Word, right? (This must be true since you are fallible, but God's Word is not.) So how do you know what God's Word is/says? Somehow, God's words have to get from God to you. How can you be certain that an error has not occurred, when you are involved, since you are -- by your own admission -- prone to error? Even if every other link in the chain is perfect by God's providence, once photons bounce off the words on the page of your Bible and enter your eyes, God's Message has entered an imperfect vessel. Thereafter, the possibility of corruption exists and that possibility is unavoidable. Indeed, if we have come to different conclusions, then we have direct evidence that corruption has occurred: at least one of us has screwed up. How can we determine who it is?

We can't use the Bible because that's the object under debate, which therefore will create circular logic if we try. The only way to know which of us got things wrong is to use some form of external verification. If you reject this ("you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy") then there is NO POINT to your "preaching the Word of God"; you may as well tell me to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn because you have supersecretspecial knowledge of the Truth of the IPU that I don't have.

To put it one final way: the situation is symmetric. We both read the Bible and one of us says X but the other says Y. Which is which? Who's right? If the person who said X says "but X is true because the Bible says so", why can't that exact same argument be used by the person who said Y? Again, the only way out is to use something more than reading the Bible. Like logic. But you reject this: "you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy", so your arguments are completely worthless.

Furthermore, given your inability to read and comprehend the posts here, or to grasp meanings that others are perfectly capable of grasping, I have very little reason to believe that you are capable of extracting the correct meaning from the Bible where I am not. So again, why should I believe what you say about the Bible? (And if you were actually able to understand, but chose not to, then you're dishonest, so again I should ignore what you say.)

Until you can answer this, you are not "powerfully preaching the Word of God", you are just a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal.
 
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KCDAD

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I NEVER said that it is not essential. I said it is not essential for Salvation.

If you can't understand this much, then you can't accept what comes from the Spirit.

YAQUBOS†

What is it essential for, then?
 
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YAQUBOS

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And you fail to get the point yet again. Big surprise. OK, let's try once more to see if we can sort this out...


Excellent. A nice, simple, straight answer. OK, all those in favor? Aye! Carried. Right, now we agree: you are fallible, God not so much. Let's even keep things simple by working with the axiom that the Bible is infallible also (I assume that's what you mean when you say "the Word of God"; I disagree, but I'm willing to agree for the sake of straightening out this particular point).


Oh dear. You were doing so well, too. I never said quoting anything is blasphemy, nor do I want to get into a pointless wrangle about what is and isn't blasphemy. What I was objecting to was equating yourself with God; but you've now said quite clearly that you are not doing that. Great. The whole blasphemy thing is now irrelevant. That should have been obvious from my posts, demonstrating once again that you don't get it -- either you lack in perception or in honesty.

Now, back to the point at hand: what I said (quite clearly & more than once) was either you're fallible or not; if fallible, then... [well, let's just cut'n'paste since I've said it already]:


and


So. Now that you've stated clearly that you are indeed fallible, please answer these questions. To make it even clearer, if I can...

You =/= God's Word, right? (This must be true since you are fallible, but God's Word is not.) So how do you know what God's Word is/says? Somehow, God's words have to get from God to you. How can you be certain that an error has not occurred, when you are involved, since you are -- by your own admission -- prone to error? Even if every other link in the chain is perfect by God's providence, once photons bounce off the words on the page of your Bible and enter your eyes, God's Message has entered an imperfect vessel. Thereafter, the possibility of corruption exists and that possibility is unavoidable. Indeed, if we have come to different conclusions, then we have direct evidence that corruption has occurred: at least one of us has screwed up. How can we determine who it is?

We can't use the Bible because that's the object under debate, which therefore will create circular logic if we try. The only way to know which of us got things wrong is to use some form of external verification. If you reject this ("you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy") then there is NO POINT to your "preaching the Word of God"; you may as well tell me to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn because you have supersecretspecial knowledge of the Truth of the IPU that I don't have.

To put it one final way: the situation is symmetric. We both read the Bible and one of us says X but the other says Y. Which is which? Who's right? If the person who said X says "but X is true because the Bible says so", why can't that exact same argument be used by the person who said Y? Again, the only way out is to use something more than reading the Bible. Like logic. But you reject this: "you only oppose the Word of God with your human philosophy", so your arguments are completely worthless.

Furthermore, given your inability to read and comprehend the posts here, or to grasp meanings that others are perfectly capable of grasping, I have very little reason to believe that you are capable of extracting the correct meaning from the Bible where I am not. So again, why should I believe what you say about the Bible? (And if you were actually able to understand, but chose not to, then you're dishonest, so again I should ignore what you say.)

Until you can answer this, you are not "powerfully preaching the Word of God", you are just a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal.

None of us is right. The Word of God is right. Your problem is that you are trying to see whose interpretation of the Bible is the right one. But I have been telling you all the time that ONLY God's interpretation is right.

So the only difference between someone who understands the Word of God and someone who doesn't is LIVING FAITH.

Our Lord said:

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
"Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight."
( Matthew 11:25-26 )

You either believe what God is saying or you don't. There is not a third option. It's only those who do not believe the Word of God who invent difficulties concerning the meaning of God's Word. God is clear, but the sinner doesn't WANT to believe.

It is incredible that God can justify and save the ungodly. But with God all things are possible, and the believer BELIEVES this, because GOD said it, and not a mortal.

Coming back to our topic, Jesus and His Apostles clearly taught us about the importance of baptism. It is your problem if you don't BELIEVE it just because it looks illogical for your fallible human mind.

YAQUBOS†
 
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KCDAD

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I NEVER said that it is not essential. I said it is not essential for Salvation.

If you can't understand this much, then you can't accept what comes from the Spirit.

YAQUBOS†

]It is an essential part of Salvation[/B]. Do you know what Salvation is essential for?

YAQUBOS†

For, or, you are engaging in semantic nonsense.

Do I know what salvation is essential for? No. Do you know what salvation is essential FROM?
 
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KCDAD

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YAQUBOS;46844672None of us is right. The Word of God is right. ... But I have been telling you all the time that ONLY God's interpretation is right.

So no one is right in interpreting the word of God. OK, I get that.

So the only difference between someone who understands the Word of God and someone who doesn't is LIVING FAITH.

So what you believe is unimportant, only the way you live?

You either believe what God is saying or you don't.

Since you can not tell me what God is saying and I can not tell me what God is saying... what is God saying?
 
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Soul Searcher

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So no one is right in interpreting the word of God. OK, I get that.



So what you believe is unimportant, only the way you live?



Since you can not tell me what God is saying and I can not tell me what God is saying... what is God saying?

Sounds like he is saying that he knows Gods interpretation meaning that he is right even though he said none of us is right. I don't know how you manage to keep chasing him in circles without getting dizzy ;)
 
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YAQUBOS

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For, or, you are engaging in semantic nonsense.

Do I know what salvation is essential for? No. Do you know what salvation is essential FROM?

OK. You seem to be a total stranger to the topic of this thread. Are we not discussing if baptism is NECESSARY to be saved? If you don't know what "necessary" means, then how can you discuss if baptism is necessary or not?

The Bible clearly says that baptism is not necessary for Salvation. But as it is an essential part of Salvation, so as soon as you have that Salvation, you will receive baptism, too.

YAQUBOS†
 
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KCDAD

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Do you know what the word "clearly" means? You are a most confusing Jacob.

You play with words and seem to little understand their meaning or use. For example, you talk about being saved for something, when salvation is most often used to mean FROM something.
 
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YAQUBOS

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So no one is right in interpreting the word of God. OK, I get that.

And as God is not "no one", then God is not included in your "no one".


So what you believe is unimportant, only the way you live?

No, I was talking about the living faith.

Since you can not tell me what God is saying and I can not tell me what God is saying... what is God saying?

Read the Bible. It is the Word of God. It is what God is saying.

YAQUBOS†
 
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