Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

[KCDAD]

Yes, they CAN choose the wrong or bad thing. And if they are not perfect, then they cannot choose anything. If they are sinners, then they sin as slaves to sin, and they cannot choose to be perfect.

So what you said does not make sense at all, because I didn't say that they were obliged to choose sin, but that they CAN choose to sin.



Perfect means perfect If Adam and Eve were not perfect, then they were not free to choose.



1. Yes, hell was created in the six days of creation. Where is the problem? Do you have any objection?

2. God created Lucifer. God didn't make him Satan; he chose to be Satan by his free choice.

3. God is competent. That's why I always call you to begin to respect God or else you are going to hell, even if you are called a Christian. It is not enough to be a professing Christian, but you need to repent.

4. And who told you that God is not controling Satan?



Please, explain where is the confusion.

By the way: What does all this have to do with the necessity of baptism? Repentance is related to baptism. I told you to repent, or else you will go to hell. If you have any problem with the biblical teaching about hell, then you can open a thread about that.

YAQUBOS†

Why create hell if there was no one to send there? If God knew there would be a rebellion and created hell in advance of it, then why would God get upset with mankind for "sinning"? Yet the Bible is full of instances where God is described as surprised, angry and unaware of what mankind is doing.

Seems to me that your illogical and inconsistent concept of god creates hell BEFORE he creates the creatures he is going to send there. He creates angels and mankind at two different times, knowing that they are going to rebel against him and anger him so much he has to destroy them. (When again are the angels created? And when is this great battle in the heavens that Lucifer... I can't believe you think this is some reference to the devil... is thrown out? Before creation or in between the first day and the 6th?)

What does it have to do with water baptism? Nothing, because water baptism has nothing to do with anything.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Why create hell if there was no one to send there? If God knew there would be a rebellion and created hell in advance of it, then why would God get upset with mankind for "sinning"? Yet the Bible is full of instances where God is described as surprised, angry and unaware of what mankind is doing.

I always tell you to begin to respect God before it's too late... The Bible never says that God is surprised, angry and unaware, humanly talking. You really need to know who God really is. He is the Omniscient, Omnipotent.

KCDAD, God knowing that people would sin doesn't mean that He must not judge sin when it is committed by humans. After all, His knowledge of their sin doesn't mean that He obliged them to sin.

The reason you gave is as ridiculous as someone saying: "As a doctor knows, by medical knowledge and experience, where a certain disease will lead, then he must not try to heal the patient when his health becomes worse..." Do you think that's a very wise comment?

By the way, I didn't say that God created HELL in advance. He created Hell, but it was not hell before some creatures sinned.

Seems to me that your illogical and inconsistent concept of god creates hell BEFORE he creates the creatures he is going to send there.

Please, show me where I ever said that God made Hell hell before anyone sinned.

Are you paying attention to what I am saying? Let me quote what I wrote again:

"Second, hell was created during the six days of creation. It was not a place of separation from God until Satan sinned."

He creates angels and mankind at two different times, knowing that they are going to rebel against him and anger him so much he has to destroy them.

God never totally destroyed His creatures. That's why there is hell, and not annihilation.

Why are you so negative in your observations? Don't you see the Good News? God has so loved us that He sent His Son to save us. Don't you see how much that is positive? Why do you insist on stressing on the "destroying" part? Does it bother you so much that God JUDGES sin?

(When again are the angels created? And when is this great battle in the heavens that Lucifer... I can't believe you think this is some reference to the devil... is thrown out? Before creation or in between the first day and the 6th?)

Angels were created during the six days of creation. Satan and his angels rebelled after the seventh day.

What does it have to do with water baptism? Nothing, because water baptism has nothing to do with anything.

Let's see if it doesn't have to do with repentance and Salvation:

"Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."" ( Acts 2:38 )

"who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" ( 1 Peter 3:20-21 )

According to YOU, baptism has nothing to do with anything. But God says it is essential IN Salvation.

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

YAQUBOS;43259903I always tell you to begin to respect God before it's too late... The Bible never says that God is surprised, angry and unaware, humanly talking. You really need to know who God really is. He is the Omniscient, Omnipotent.

Then I don't have to do anything... God always knows what is going to happen.

KCDAD, God knowing that people would sin doesn't mean that He must not judge sin when it is committed by humans. After all, His knowledge of their sin doesn't mean that He obliged them to sin.

He created them. He didn't just show up and say, "ok, now I am in charge and here are the rules".

The reason you gave is as ridiculous as someone saying: "As a doctor knows, by medical knowledge and experience, where a certain disease will lead, then he must not try to heal the patient when his health becomes worse..." Do you think that's a very wise comment?

It is not a wise analogy.

By the way, I didn't say that God created HELL in advance. He created Hell, but it was not hell before some creatures sinned.

What was it, Cleveland?

Please, show me where I ever said that God made Hell hell before anyone sinned.

Before or after.. there isn't much choice is there... take your pick.

"Second, hell was created during the six days of creation. It was not a place of separation from God until Satan sinned."

So... where is it? If it is a place... it is somewhere... what was the purpose of it? How did satan, lucifer, the serpent, the dragon the devil... or whatever name you prefer... when he did he get control of it?

God never totally destroyed His creatures. That's why there is hell, and not annihilation.

Just eternal torment... MUCH better than destruction.

Why are you so negative in your observations? Don't you see the Good News? God has so loved us that He sent His Son to save us. Don't you see how much that is positive? Why do you insist on stressing on the "destroying" part? Does it bother you so much that God JUDGES sin?

Good news? The good news is "Yaqubos is saved". You don't care one bit about the BILLIONS that aren't.

Angels were created during the six days of creation. Satan and his angels rebelled after the seventh day.

Angels are there when God said "Let us ..."? Who was God talking to?

It is amazing... everything in the Bible is understood literally by you, isn't it?

You are pathetic. God didn't say anything. You quoted Luke (Peter's friend) and Peter himself. Why can't you literally understand that people wrote the words in the Bible? The first verse you quoted... PETER SAID TO THEM...not God.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Then I don't have to do anything... God always knows what is going to happen.

You are still using the same wrong reasoning. If a doctor knows, by medical knowledge and experience, where your disease will lead, then you say you don't need to take your medication...

God doesn't oblige you to do anything. God knows what you will do. But this doesn't mean that He obliges you to do what He knows you will do.

So if you don't repent, you won't surprise God. And if you repent, you won't surprise Him.

And if you go to hell for not repenting, you must not be surprised, because God already told you that in His Word.

He created them. He didn't just show up and say, "ok, now I am in charge and here are the rules".

And where is the problem if He created them? After all, He didn't create them sinners, did He?

What was it, Cleveland?

It was not a place of separation from God.

Before or after.. there isn't much choice is there... take your pick.

Sorry, I didn't get what you wanted to say.

So... where is it? If it is a place... it is somewhere... what was the purpose of it? How did satan, lucifer, the serpent, the dragon the devil... or whatever name you prefer... when he did he get control of it?

It is in the same place where Hell is... And, sorry, I can't take you there...

You said: "when he did he get control of it" Did you mean that Satan got control on hell? If you meant that, then you have not read the Bible yet... Satan has no control on hell. Satan will be tormented in Hell forever.

Just eternal torment... MUCH better than destruction.

And who said that God was looking for the much better and humanistic way to judge sin??

God really hates sin.

You are comparing between destruction and hell, as if you are inevitably going to hell and you are trying to see if it is a better punishment than destruction. But why? You don't need to go to hell. You can repent and believe the Gospel, and you will be saved.

Good news? The good news is "Yaqubos is saved". You don't care one bit about the BILLIONS that aren't.

Why am I here??

Angels are there when God said "Let us ..."? Who was God talking to?

God is a Trinity. The Father created the heavens and the earth by His Word ( the Son ) and "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." ( Genesis 1:2 )

It is amazing... everything in the Bible is understood literally by you, isn't it?

You are pathetic. God didn't say anything. You quoted Luke (Peter's friend) and Peter himself. Why can't you literally understand that people wrote the words in the Bible? The first verse you quoted... PETER SAID TO THEM...not God.

Yes, people LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD wrote the Bible. And yes, GOD SAID that Peter said to them. The Bible is the Letter of God to us. When you read it, remember that those words are written by God through men led by the Spirit. In His Letter, God said that Peter said to them.

I have explained this many times. But you insist on not understanding.

YAQUBOS†

 

[KCDAD]

YAQUBOS;43375319You are still using the same wrong reasoning. If a doctor knows, by medical knowledge and experience, where your disease will lead, then you say you don't need to take your medication...

Disease? Where did it come from? How did I get it? What is the cure?

God doesn't oblige you to do anything. God knows what you will do. But this doesn't mean that He obliges you to do what He knows you will do.

If God knows what I will do, then ok, that is what I will do. Why worry about it? Why take a chance making a mistake and do something unnatural?

So if you don't repent, you won't surprise God. And if you repent, you won't surprise Him.
And if you go to hell for not repenting, you must not be surprised, because God already told you that in His Word.

Sorry... don't see it. God told me nothing about going anywhere, including hell.

And where is the problem if He created them? After all, He didn't create them sinners, did He?

So where did sin come from? What does it mean to be a sinner? I thought you believe in original sin, meaning we were born sinners?

It was not a place of separation from God.

And now it is? What was it before and who changed it?

Sorry, I didn't get what you wanted to say.

Quote:
Please, show me where I ever said that God made Hell hell before anyone sinned.
Before or after.. there isn't much choice is there... take your pick.

Either God made hell before man sinned or afterwards (or in the case of your last argumetn made it a place of separation before or after), and in either case in demonstrates a lack of foresight on God's part.

It is in the same place where Hell is... And, sorry, I can't take you there...

Sorry, I don't understand.. hell is in the same place hell is... ?????

You said: "when he did he get control of it" Did you mean that Satan got control on hell? If you meant that, then you have not read the Bible yet... Satan has no control on hell. Satan will be tormented in Hell forever.

So God is in control of hell and yet is not there? How can that be?

And who said that God was looking for the much better and humanistic way to judge sin??
God really hates sin.

I see... God is arbitrary, not just. How does God hate anything he is responsible for?

You are comparing between destruction and hell, as if you are inevitably going to hell and you are trying to see if it is a better punishment than destruction. But why? You don't need to go to hell. You can repent and believe the Gospel, and you will be saved.

Why would I want to? Why would I want to be in heaven with people like you when everyone I love will be in hell?

Why am I here??

Good question. Is it because you love humanity?

God is a Trinity. The Father created the heavens and the earth by His Word ( the Son ) and "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." ( Genesis 1:2 )

Why do you think "spirit" is anything other than what we mean by a sprit of generosity or a spirit of love? The spirit of God is different than the spirit of a man, how?

Yes, people LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD wrote the Bible. And yes, GOD SAID that Peter said to them. The Bible is the Letter of God to us. When you read it, remember that those words are written by God through men led by the Spirit. In His Letter, God said that Peter said to them.

Sorry, The Old Testament was written to the Jews... the people of the tribe of Judah. I guess since I don't read other people's mail, I better stop reading the Bible. You are so uninformed when it comes to the origin of the Bible.

I have explained this many times. But you insist on not understanding.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

I always tell you to begin to respect God before it's too late...

OK, that helps. It helps me realize that you just don't get where KCDAD is coming from, which makes this debate make a lot more sense to me (watching it). KCDAD respects God -- just not your interpretation thereof. These "disrespectful" characterizations are to illustrate the logical problems with your version of God. (Yes, yes, I know, you're going to say that it's not *your* version, it's the Truth, it says so in the Bible etc etc etc. Sorry, but it's still an interpretation, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.)

The Bible never says that God is surprised, angry and unaware, humanly talking.

So He just changes His mind for the fun of it? What a Jerk. (cite: oh, I dunno, how about Lot/Sodom & G, or the flood, or... Or hell for that matter, as has been discussed -- either God made it ahead of time, knowing that the creatures He was about to create would end up in torment there, or afterwards, in which case it indicates a lack of forward planning.)

You really need to know who God really is. He is the Omniscient, Omnipotent.

Right. That's the problem: why would an omniscient being change His mind?

KCDAD, God knowing that people would sin doesn't mean that He must not judge sin when it is committed by humans. After all, His knowledge of their sin doesn't mean that He obliged them to sin.

No he just set up the ultimate entrapment. "Here, I create you to be human, which means ye shall err. And then I shall smite ye mightily. That'll teach ye to be true unto your nature!" Why create a fallible creature if you can't tolerate fallibility? Seems to me (finite and ignorant mortal as I am) that there's a serious design flaw.

The reason you gave is as ridiculous as someone saying: "As a doctor knows, by medical knowledge and experience, where a certain disease will lead, then he must not try to heal the patient when his health becomes worse..." Do you think that's a very wise comment?

No. Wait, what? That's your analogy of choice in your defense? Want to rethink that? Because it seems to me that that's KCDAD's point (well, one of them): why would the doctor (God) do nothing to prevent the disease (sin) from destroying his patient (creation)? Oh, right, Jesus, am I right? Jesus is the escape clause, yes? But then, using *your own* analogy, the doctor lets the disease reduce the patient to a weak, feverish basketcase before administering the medicine. Why? As you yourself point out: the smart thing to do is treat the problem immediately or, even better, keep the patient healthy all along! Your God's not much of a doctor, my friend.

...
Then there's a bunch of stuff I can't even follow. Hell existed after The Fall. But also before it? Or something. But it wasn't Hell, it was Cleveland (nice one, KCDAD! But really, what's the difference?-- zing!). Really, I don't care much, because this is all predicated on some pretty wobbly theology to start with.
...

God never totally destroyed His creatures. That's why there is hell, and not annihilation.

As KCDAD's already pointed out: that just makes God a right nasty so-and-so. Eternal torment is better than death? Seriously, your God "has issues".

Why are you so negative in your observations?

He's just logically extrapolating your theology. If you find that negative... (go on, finish that sentence!)

Don't you see the Good News? God has so loved us that He sent His Son to save us. Don't you see how much that is positive?

Yeah, that's great. But (a) why bother with such a convoluted system? and (b) what if you don't believe that? You get a handful of years and one shot at picking the right party line to proclaim, and if you get it wrong...

Why do you insist on stressing on the "destroying" part? Does it bother you so much that God JUDGES sin?

Because it's so massively unfair and nasty. We hold our children to a higher standard of morality than we hold God. We expect ourselves to forgive others, but we bind God by some arcane rules of "justice" that destroys (or tortures) His own creations.

Let's see if it doesn't have to do with repentance and Salvation:

Oh I see what you did there. Nicely done, sneaking repentance in there. Hey, maybe *that's* what's important, and baptism is just an outward sign of that conviction...?

According to YOU, baptism has nothing to do with anything. But God says it is essential IN Salvation.

So every single follower of Jesus, from James and John onwards, was baptized? Do you have any Biblical evidence of that?

 

[Soul Searcher]

God is a Trinity. The Father created the heavens and the earth by His Word ( the Son ) and "the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." ( Genesis 1:2 )

Wondering where this came from?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Looks like someone has been taking some freedoms with the text. Perhaps this is part of the problem that makes for the poor understanding.


As for the baptism part there is not one single verse anywhere in the bible that actually says anyone must be baptised to be saved. There is not a single verse that says those who are not baptised shall not be saved. In fact there is not a verse that says anyone will not be saved. There are however verses which say that everyone will be saved.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Right. That's the problem: why would an omniscient being change His mind?

Yep.. and that is a big problem too. It would take a real idiot to come up with a plan which they knew in advance would fail and also having the knowledge of the solution before hand.

One case I was thinking about is Jonah. If we assume that:
1: the bible is the inerrant word of God
2: God is all knowing past present and future
3: God is not a liar.

How can we have a text that says God will destory a city in forty days then that same God repenting and not doing so? This presents a major delima given the above assumptions. He would have known full well that they would do as they did and he would not destroy the city and having that knowledge when he made the statement that he would destory the city in 40 days makes it an intentional lie.

If God actually guided the hand then he could have said if you do not repent and do well I will destroy the city in 40 days knowing that he would not need to do so and there is no problem until we get to the repented part which causes yet another problem as he is now remorseful for something he was going to do but didn't. If he had full knowledge of the future then he would have known that there was never a chance that he would destroy the city and again the words ring false.

So perhaps he did not know the future and they surprised him, That gets rid of the error part and gets rid of the liar part but it gives us a God who doesn't know what man may do tomorrow and that is far short of the all knowing God painted by religion.

The logical conclusion; men wrote the bible from their own point of view and they made some mistakes along the way.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

The logical conclusion; men wrote the bible from their own point of view and they made some mistakes along the way.

Gasp! Hairy-sea!

 

[YAQUBOS]

Disease? Where did it come from? How did I get it? What is the cure?

Good Ask this kind of questions, instead of blaming God and thinking that He is responsible of our sins.

If God knows what I will do, then ok, that is what I will do. Why worry about it? Why take a chance making a mistake and do something unnatural?

You still don't get it?? If a doctor knows that your diabetes will make you blind if you don't take your medication, then do you stop taking your medication saying: "Well, as the doctor says my illness will make me blind, then why take the medication anyway?"

Sorry... don't see it. God told me nothing about going anywhere, including hell.

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ( Matthew 25:46 )

Here is God telling you. When you stand before Him for Judgment, you won't be able to deny the fact that you already read the above quoted verse.

So where did sin come from? What does it mean to be a sinner? I thought you believe in original sin, meaning we were born sinners?

Sin is not someone who comes from a far away land... Sin is when you disobey God. It didn't come from somewhere. We, humans, disobeyed God, and we are sinners by nature, i.e. separated from Him and wanting to live according to OUR will and not the Will of God.

The sinful nature that we all have is what is called "Original sin".

And now it is? What was it before and who changed it?

Before, it was a part of God's good creation. Now it is hell. SIN deserved that eternal punishment.

Quote:
Please, show me where I ever said that God made Hell hell before anyone sinned.
Before or after.. there isn't much choice is there... take your pick.

Either God made hell before man sinned or afterwards (or in the case of your last argumetn made it a place of separation before or after), and in either case in demonstrates a lack of foresight on God's part.

Why?

Sorry, I don't understand.. hell is in the same place hell is... ?????

That place that was not hell before and is now is in the same place where hell is now... You see how your ridiculous questions make you hear ridiculous answers?

Anyway... In all cases, I cannot take you there to show you where it exactly is.

So God is in control of hell and yet is not there? How can that be?

And who told you that God is not EVERYWHERE = OMNIPRESENT?

You still didn't understand what "place of separation from God" means, did you? All unbelievers are NOW living in a separation from God, although they are on earth, and God is on earth and everywhere. But an essential difference between an unbeliever on earth and an unbeliever in hell is that those who are here still have time to repent, so there is hope for them, while those who are in hell have eternally no hope. They are spiritually and morally separated from God, and are under His constant WRATH.

I see... God is arbitrary, not just. How does God hate anything he is responsible for?

What you just said shows that you don't see...

How is God responsible for the sins YOU have committed?

Why would I want to? Why would I want to be in heaven with people like you when everyone I love will be in hell?

And will you see them in that eternal darkness? And will you still love them in those eternal torments?

Good question. Is it because you love humanity?

Up to you to guess.

Why do you think "spirit" is anything other than what we mean by a sprit of generosity or a spirit of love? The spirit of God is different than the spirit of a man, how?

Jesus said that the Spirit of God is a Person who can come, and dwell in people, and teach them, and stay with them.

By the way, you forgot your first argument that has fallen with the fact that the Son is the Word by whom God created everything.

Sorry, The Old Testament was written to the Jews...

"Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him." ( Psalm 33:8 )

Please, remind me when did Noah become a Jew?...

the people of the tribe of Judah. I guess since I don't read other people's mail, I better stop reading the Bible. You are so uninformed when it comes to the origin of the Bible.

I have explained this many times. But you insist on not understanding.

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus Christ who knows better than you and me said that the Bible is the Word of God. And we have seen this in detail.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

OK, that helps. It helps me realize that you just don't get where KCDAD is coming from, which makes this debate make a lot more sense to me (watching it). KCDAD respects God -- just not your interpretation thereof. These "disrespectful" characterizations are to illustrate the logical problems with your version of God. (Yes, yes, I know, you're going to say that it's not *your* version, it's the Truth, it says so in the Bible etc etc etc. Sorry, but it's still an interpretation, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.)

Let's take a passage of the Bible, WITHOUT interpreting it, and let's see what it says about God:

"For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." ( Malachi 3:6 )

Without interpretation, without philosophy, here is what I believe: The Lord does not change.

I hope you noticed that I didn't interpret anything. I just accepted what God said.

And as KCDAD contradicts this truth in many ways and in many instances, so I am calling him to repent and begin to respect God. Do you mind it if I do?

I also call you to know the real God of the Bible.

So He just changes His mind for the fun of it? What a Jerk. (cite: oh, I dunno, how about Lot/Sodom & G, or the flood, or... Or hell for that matter, as has been discussed -- either God made it ahead of time, knowing that the creatures He was about to create would end up in torment there, or afterwards, in which case it indicates a lack of forward planning.)

You just said that the God of the Bible is a jerk... While you say that you and KCDAD don't disrespect God... Interesting enough...

Anyway... God never changed His mind in the human way. God does not change, as we have seen. God didn't change anything in His mind concerning Sodom and Gomorrah or the Flood. And I don't see where is the problem if God knew that His creatures would sin.

Right. That's the problem: why would an omniscient being change His mind?

And when did God change His mind? And, please, be sure you know what YOU mean by "changing His mind"

No he just set up the ultimate entrapment. "Here, I create you to be human, which means ye shall err. And then I shall smite ye mightily. That'll teach ye to be true unto your nature!" Why create a fallible creature if you can't tolerate fallibility? Seems to me (finite and ignorant mortal as I am) that there's a serious design flaw.

The Angel Gabriel also is a "fallible" creature, but he did not fall... ( I used "fallible" in your way )

You think "fallible" = obliged to fall.

God created us ( humans ) PERFECT. We could live without sin. We were created FREE. We could choose NOT to sin. But we have CHOSEN to sin.

Your conclusions about God are very wrong, because your assumptions about what happened are very huge. God never said that humans MUST err. After the Fall, God NEVER said that He wished us to be true to OUR nature.

Make sure you read the Bible carefully. Because that helps you know the true God, and to begin to respect Him.

No. Wait, what? That's your analogy of choice in your defense? Want to rethink that? Because it seems to me that that's KCDAD's point (well, one of them): why would the doctor (God) do nothing to prevent the disease (sin) from destroying his patient (creation)? Oh, right, Jesus, am I right? Jesus is the escape clause, yes? But then, using *your own* analogy, the doctor lets the disease reduce the patient to a weak, feverish basketcase before administering the medicine. Why? As you yourself point out: the smart thing to do is treat the problem immediately or, even better, keep the patient healthy all along! Your God's not much of a doctor, my friend.

You still refuse to begin to respect the true God.

Who told you that God didn't heal the patient as soon as he became sick?? Do you know how Jesus Christ saved Adam and Eve? Do you know how Jesus met Moses? And how Isaiah saw Jesus Christ on the throne?

Do you really think that Christ died only for those who came AFTER Him?

...
Then there's a bunch of stuff I can't even follow. Hell existed after The Fall. But also before it? Or something. But it wasn't Hell, it was Cleveland (nice one, KCDAD! But really, what's the difference?-- zing!).

Satan was not Satan before he fell. What was the difference?

The same difference between hell before and after sin.

Really, I don't care much, because this is all predicated on some pretty wobbly theology to start with.
...

Jesus said that if you don't repent you will go to eternal hell. Please, don't go there.

Whether you care about this or not, the fact will not change. Someone's house may be on fire, and he may not care because of ignorance. But that doesn't change the fact that he lost his house...

As KCDAD's already pointed out: that just makes God a right nasty so-and-so. Eternal torment is better than death? Seriously, your God "has issues".

Yes, existence is better than non-existence. And sin cannot make God such a sinner as to annihilate what He has created. God judges sin. And those who choose sin, choose the punishment of sin.

He's just logically extrapolating your theology. If you find that negative... (go on, finish that sentence!)

I once showed a person a white paper on which there was a little black point. I asked him: what do you see? He said: a black point...

Yeah, that's great. But (a) why bother with such a convoluted system? and (b) what if you don't believe that? You get a handful of years and one shot at picking the right party line to proclaim, and if you get it wrong...

Yes, it's that difficult for you to choose between sin and God...

Because it's so massively unfair and nasty. We hold our children to a higher standard of morality than we hold God. We expect ourselves to forgive others, but we bind God by some arcane rules of "justice" that destroys (or tortures) His own creations.

Your little kid asks you for a knife to play with, and you give it to him with a big smile...

God is Wise. He wants the best for you. But if you choose hell, He won't oblige you to go to Heaven. He is ready to forgive you all your sins now. He is asking you to accept His forgiveness. What more do you expect? Do you also want Him to repent in your place?

Oh I see what you did there. Nicely done, sneaking repentance in there. Hey, maybe *that's* what's important, and baptism is just an outward sign of that conviction...?

And did you see how much that sign is essential IN Salvation?

So every single follower of Jesus, from James and John onwards, was baptized? Do you have any Biblical evidence of that?

All of them really repented. Didn't you say that Baptism is the sign of repentance? So repent, and you will certainly be baptized.

Yes, all the followers of Jesus Christ who could be baptized were baptized. And, yes, I have biblical evidence of that:

"Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John" ( John 4:1 )

This is how a person becomes a disciple of Christ: baptism. But the essential is to become a TRUE disciple of Christ, and not a liar like Judas who also became a disciple by baptism. And what does Jesus say about TRUE disciples? Here is what He says:

"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."" ( John 8:31-32 )

YAQUBOS†

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus Christ who knows better than you and me said that the Bible is the Word of God. And we have seen this in detail.

YAQUBOS†

It's funny that you keep saying this even though we all know that it is not true.

Fact: The word Bible does not occur in the bible.
Fact: Many books that make up the bible did not exist when Jesus walked the earth.
Fact: The Word of God is never referred to as paper and ink but as spirit and then flesh.

You put words in the mouth of Jesus and insist that you have shown us all when in reality you have not shown any such thing. I wonder will you ever find the honesty to admit that these words you claim were uttered by Jesus are not there.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Wondering where this came from?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Looks like someone has been taking some freedoms with the text. Perhaps this is part of the problem that makes for the poor understanding.

And we continue the context that many despise:

"Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light." ( Genesis 1:3 )

And the Word of God also says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." ( John 1:1-3 )

"For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water" ( 2 Peter 3:5 )

"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." ( Hebrews 1:2 )

Maybe before you accuse others of taking freedom with the text, you must remember that this is the Word of God, and that ONLY GOD can tell you what it means that "God said... and there was". "Said" = "The Word of God". God created everything by His Word. And the Bible says that Jesus Christ is that Word, the second Person of the Trinity; He is God.

As for the baptism part there is not one single verse anywhere in the bible that actually says anyone must be baptised to be saved.

Right! No one can find ONE verse in the Bible saying that anyone must be baptized TO BE saved. Or else, how were Old Testament people saved?

There is not a single verse that says those who are not baptised shall not be saved.

Right again! David was saved, and he was never baptized.

In fact there is not a verse that says anyone will not be saved. There are however verses which say that everyone will be saved.

Let's see if any verse says there are people who will be lost ( not saved ) :

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ( Matthew 25:46 )

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:15 )

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

Etc...

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Yep.. and that is a big problem too. It would take a real idiot to come up with a plan which they knew in advance would fail and also having the knowledge of the solution before hand.

One case I was thinking about is Jonah. If we assume that:
1: the bible is the inerrant word of God
2: God is all knowing past present and future
3: God is not a liar.

How can we have a text that says God will destory a city in forty days then that same God repenting and not doing so? This presents a major delima given the above assumptions. He would have known full well that they would do as they did and he would not destroy the city and having that knowledge when he made the statement that he would destory the city in 40 days makes it an intentional lie.

Yes, if you repent, you will not go to hell, and that will not surprise God. But God is not lying when He says that you will go to hell if you don't repent.

God is all-knowing. But humans are not all-knowing. How can I know if you will repent? You decide that. So I tell you, as long as you are in your sins, God's Word is clear that you are going to hell. Does this mean that God's Word will be wrong when you repent? Not at all, because God NEVER said that all humans will go to hell. And God NEVER said that the people of Nineveh would be lost WHATEVER THEY DO. The context is clear that the punishment was coming on them because of their sins. But they repented. And God was not surprised. Or else, why did God send Jonah to Nineveh? Just to make a show???

If God actually guided the hand then he could have said if you do not repent and do well I will destroy the city in 40 days knowing that he would not need to do so and there is no problem until we get to the repented part which causes yet another problem as he is now remorseful for something he was going to do but didn't. If he had full knowledge of the future then he would have known that there was never a chance that he would destroy the city and again the words ring false.

So perhaps he did not know the future and they surprised him, That gets rid of the error part and gets rid of the liar part but it gives us a God who doesn't know what man may do tomorrow and that is far short of the all knowing God painted by religion.

The logical conclusion; men wrote the bible from their own point of view and they made some mistakes along the way.

God sent Jonah to that city, because He knew that they would repent when they hear the Word of God.

While He tells us today: You are going to Hell because you are sinners! And many answer: Well, we don't need to repent, because God changes His mind...

No, friends, God does not change His mind. Get rid of your sins. Repent today.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

It's funny that you keep saying this even though we all know that it is not true.

Satan is also making fun of that...

Fact: The word Bible does not occur in the bible.

Fact: The word "Book" and/or "Scriptures" are mentioned many times in the Bible.

Fact: Many books that make up the bible did not exist when Jesus walked the earth.

And what does that have to do with the fact that the whole Bible is the Word of God??

I am writing to you this reply. All my coming replies also will be my replies. Do you have any objection if I want to affirm the truth that all my coming replies also will be my replies? ( That's if I am all-knowing and all-powerful and know that no one will be able to use my name to write any reply ) .

Fact: The Word of God is never referred to as paper and ink but as spirit and then flesh.

Jesus said that the Scripture is the Word of God.

You put words in the mouth of Jesus and insist that you have shown us all when in reality you have not shown any such thing. I wonder will you ever find the honesty to admit that these words you claim were uttered by Jesus are not there.

I can assure you that I have never edited the Bible Just open your Bible, and read the verses and passages that I quoted in my detailed reply, and you will see how Jesus clearly says that the Bible is the written Word of God.

YAQUBOS†

 

[Soul Searcher]

Maybe before you accuse others of taking freedom with the text, you must remember that this is the Word of God, and that ONLY GOD can tell you what it means that "God said... and there was". "Said" = "The Word of God". God created everything by His Word. And the Bible says that Jesus Christ is that Word, the second Person of the Trinity; He is God.

As I said someone was taking liberties with the text, inserting words and removing others. The passage that you quoted as Gen 1:2 is part of 1:1 and 1:2 with part of it deleted and the insertion of the trinity and the son neighter of which exist in any English translation that I have saw and I have 10 of them. The bible does indicate that Jesus is the word. It does not say anything about "the trinity" That word is nowhere in the bible. And neighter the bible nor Jesus ever refers to the bible as the word of God only people like you do so.

Right! No one can find ONE verse in the Bible saying that anyone must be baptized TO BE saved. Or else, how were Old Testament people saved?

Ok so now you are saying that baptism is not nessacary.

Right again! David was saved, and he was never baptized.

And Daivid was a murderer and an adulteror.

I am confused wasn't it you that said baptism was required or am I remembering incorrectly?

Let's see if any verse says there are people who will be lost ( not saved ) :

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ( Matthew 25:46 )

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:15 )

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

Etc...

YAQUBOS†

I guess not None of those verses say that anyone shall not be saved. It is your interpretation that they mean this but they do not say this.

Your first verse uses the word eternal which is incorrect so that one can not be determined to mean what you seem to think it means. For the record eternal means without begining and without end. The word used means age or ages not eternal. Also it is not talking about believers nor any who were baptised but those who do right by thier fellow man.

Your second verse talks about the lake of fire. Paul tells us that every man shall be tried by fire and they shall gain reward or suffer loss by he himself shall be saved as by fire. The verse does not say they shall not be saved but when interpreted in light of other scripture. It actually shows that they shall be saved. We look at the meaning of the word translated torment and we see that it means to test the purity of Gold or sliver and then we look at Pauls writings and we see that the fire tests the works of the man be they gold and silver or hay and stubble but in either case the man shall be saved.

Your third verse also does not say anyone shall not be saved and I notice that even though the very next verse explains the condemnation you ommitted it. To simplify the condemnation is that they walk in darkness [ignorance] rather than light [truth].

None of those verse say that anyone will not be saved but as I said before there are verses which say everyone shall be saved.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yes, if you repent, you will not go to hell, and that will not surprise God. But God is not lying when He says that you will go to hell if you don't repent.

What does that have to do with anything? First of all in regaurd to hell the bible plainly says that hell will give up the dead. Meaning that hell is not eternal and no one will be there forever yet that doesn;t stop people from saying otherwise. They talk of the lake of fire and use the word hell they know they are being dishonest and apparently do not care. It is difficult to believe a single word that comes from such people who seem to value honesty so little.

Secondly, I was refering to an instance where there was no if. It says I will... then he didn't. You apparently would rather change the subject than deal with that fact. Tells a lot.

God is all-knowing. But humans are not all-knowing. How can I know if you will repent? You decide that. So I tell you, as long as you are in your sins, God's Word is clear that you are going to hell. Does this mean that God's Word will be wrong when you repent?

Again that has nothing to do with the instance I pointed out.

Not at all, because God NEVER said that all humans will go to hell. And God NEVER said that the people of Nineveh would be lost WHATEVER THEY DO. The context is clear that the punishment was coming on them because of their sins. But they repented. And God was not surprised. Or else, why did God send Jonah to Nineveh? Just to make a show???

A better question why did God repent?

It seems that you do not want to face the fact that either God lied when he said he would destory them knowing that he would not, or that he did not foresee that they would repent and be spared or the story is in error. It clearly says that God changed his mind and was sorry for having considered doing evil unto them.

God sent Jonah to that city, because He knew that they would repent when they hear the Word of God.

While He tells us today: You are going to Hell because you are sinners! And many answer: Well, we don't need to repent, because God changes His mind...

No, friends, God does not change His mind. Get rid of your sins. Repent today.

YAQUBOS†

So in other words God lied to Jonah and had Jonah lie to them. Saying that he would destory them and yet he did not. Jonah was mad at him for this reason because God lied to Jonah and made Jonah look like a fool.

or

There is a problem with the story.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Satan is also making fun of that...

Satan is making fun of you making things up?

Fact: The word "Book" and/or "Scriptures" are mentioned many times in the Bible.

And.. the word book and scriptures is mentioned in many places outside the bible as well. Bible however is not the same as book and it is not the same as scripture, while it does fall into a similar category in that it is a collection of books believed to be scripture by Christains. One can not interchange these words as they see fit then claim that that is what it actually says. We all know better.

And what does that have to do with the fact that the whole Bible is the Word of God??

Since that fact does not exist then I would say nothing.
Yet you say that Jesus said the Bible was the word of God, This bible did not exist at the time. He said no such thing nor anything that could be honestly interpreted to mean such a thing. Your fact is fiction.

I am writing to you this reply. All my coming replies also will be my replies. Do you have any objection if I want to affirm the truth that all my coming replies also will be my replies? ( That's if I am all-knowing and all-powerful and know that no one will be able to use my name to write any reply ) .

That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The bible was written by men, it was copied, translated and compiled by men. It does not make any claim to be the word of God and it is not.

Jesus said that the Scripture is the Word of God.

No he did not. You take a very liberal interpretation of what Jesus said and say he said something that there is no record of him actually saying at all. You have been told this several times yet you keep repeating it. You even claim to have shown this but not a single post actually shows this.

I can assure you that I have never edited the Bible Just open your Bible, and read the verses and passages that I quoted in my detailed reply, and you will see how Jesus clearly says that the Bible is the written Word of God.

I read you message and I clearly see that he did not say this at all. I also searched 10 different translations and he does not say this in any of them. All you have is your interpretation of what is there and you arrive at your conclusion which is in error.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

Let's take a passage of the Bible, WITHOUT interpreting it, and let's see what it says about God:

"For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." ( Malachi 3:6 )

Without interpretation, without philosophy, here is what I believe: The Lord does not change.

I hope you noticed that I didn't interpret anything. I just accepted what God said.

And as KCDAD contradicts this truth in many ways and in many instances, so I am calling him to repent and begin to respect God. Do you mind it if I do?

Well, yes, actually, because it's spectacularly patronising. But it doesn't actually impinge on our rights, so I guess you can do as you please.

I also call you to know the real God of the Bible.

Cool, thanks. But until you can prove to me that you have a monopoly on Truth, I'll keep searching for what that "real God" is. No offense, but I'm not just going to mindlessly follow whatever dogma you insist on.

You just said that the God of the Bible is a jerk... While you say that you and KCDAD don't disrespect God... Interesting enough...

Seriously, you're just being deliberately obtuse now, aren't you? How hard is this to understand? I'll make it as simple as I can:

- we (KCDAD & I) are trying to start with your beliefs (as best we understand them) and logically follow them through
- when we do, we find that God is an extremely nasty entity
- we feel that this means *you* are the one that disrespects God, since you are happy to hold beliefs that make God out to be a jerk
- we, OTOH, *do* respect God and therefore hold different beliefs; beliefs that are consistent with a great, loving, beautiful and holy God worthy of the name.

Now, you always say that your God is the "God of the Bible". OK, but the problem remains. So either God is a jerk, or your interpretation of the Bible is not perfect, or the Bible is not inerrant. I'm happy with either of the latter two, but, for the record, the first is not an option for me. (Or KCDAD, I expect, but here he must speak for himself.)

Anyway... God never changed His mind in the human way.

He changes it in an inhuman way? Didn't you just say that The Lord does not change? (Rhetorical question. Yes, you did. It's quoted above.) So why the qualifier ("in the human way")? Looks like a setup for you to dodge around the upcoming problems. But maybe I'm just being paranoid.

OK, God doesn't change. Doesn't change His mind. Are we agreed? Good...

God does not change, as we have seen. God didn't change anything in His mind concerning Sodom and Gomorrah or the Flood.

Since you love quoting the Bible so much, mind if I do?

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God just said that everything's going to get whacked. But Noah isn't. So either Noah found favor and was therefore spared, meaning God changed the plan, or that was the plan all along was to spare Noah, in which case God made a false statement (in verse 7).

Similarly, He then goes on to tell Noah to build an ark b/c He's "going to put an end to all people". Now... aren't we people? So again what are the options?

- God lied to Noah
- God changed His mind

How is this not a problem? OK, now that's your cue to come up with some lovely ad hoc work-around -- go:

And I don't see where is the problem if God knew that His creatures would sin.

Because He's then creating creatures knowing they are destined for eternal torment. You are quite sure that I am destined for hell, right (b/c I don't respect God and so on and so forth)? So (your) God created me, knowing that my fate was eternal torment. Now, yes, that's my choice and all, but that's not the point. We're not discussing free will; the point here is that God knew my fate before I was born, right? If not, then something changed, which we've already ruled out ("The Lord does not change").

So: God made me, knowing I would burn in hell for all eternity.

How is it not obvious to you that any fair-minded person would immediately ask: "then why make me?" What kind of sadistic entity creates something just to torture it? And don't say that it's my choice -- that's irrelevant, as I've already established. I felt no pain prior to my birth. No pleasure, either, but that's outweighed by the infinite suffering I will endure due to being created.

(Your) God doesn't seem to have thought this through very well. Why not find a way to avoid, or at least mitigate my suffering? And if that can't be done, don't make me in the first place! (Unless, you actually believe God is a sadist?)

And when did God change His mind? And, please, be sure you know what YOU mean by "changing His mind"

Well, sure, you can always claim that "God knew this would happen" in any of the stories. But then they don't make a lot of sense. Noah, as discussed above. With Sodom, why does God put Abraham through that "what if there are X holy ones?" routine? Why not just say "Look, mate, the city's a ****hole, and I'm going to fry it; there aren't even 10 righteous people in the whole place"? Seems all a bit melodramatic to go through the whole bargaining thing.

The problem isn't that God clearly changed His mind about something, but rather: either God changed His mind OR ... something else unpleasant. Why does He "harden Pharaoh's heart" since the result is mass slaughter of innocent Egyptians? Again, either He's making it up as he goes along (which we've ruled out), or He's going along with this grand play knowing that Bad Stuff is going to happen in Act IV.

The Angel Gabriel also is a "fallible" creature, but he did not fall... ( I used "fallible" in your way )

You think "fallible" = obliged to fall.

God created us ( humans ) PERFECT. We could live without sin. We were created FREE. We could choose NOT to sin. But we have CHOSEN to sin.

Your conclusions about God are very wrong, because your assumptions about what happened are very huge. God never said that humans MUST err. After the Fall, God NEVER said that He wished us to be true to OUR nature.

Again, this is all utterly irrelevant (although, admittedly, I used the word "fallible" loosely). The problem isn't that God created us *able* to sin, but that God created us able to sin and *knowing that we would*.

This is a pretty simple argument, so let me make it one last time to be clear:
- God is omniscient, right?
- So God knows our fate (nothing to do with free will here, just knowledge of our future actions)
- Under some set of circumstances (not being baptized or not sacrificing two doves on a Thursday, or whatever), those that sin are condemned to eternal punishment, right?
- Again, God has foreknowledge of who will suffer that fate
- But God creates those creatures and lets them suffer infinitely anyway.

See why that doesn't make God look too good?

Even as an ignorant mortal I can see the design flaw. So why wouldn't a perfect God spot it and correct it? Oh, right, He would! Conclusion: that scenario above isn't quite right. So take your pick as to which you choose:

- God is a jerk
- God is limited
- God can change His mind
- God won't punish us infinitely

And before you give your standard reaction about disrespecting God, remember: I'm using your theology and logic, and those are the options we get.

Make sure you read the Bible carefully.

Have done, thanks.

Because that helps you know the true God, and to begin to respect Him.

Apparently not:

You still refuse to begin to respect the true God.

Probably because I'm not a True Scotsman, right?

And since you're so keen on reading the Bible carefully (and with no interpretation, either!), how about Jonah 4:2-4?

"I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live." 4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"

So, reading carefully, Jonah says God "relents from sending calamity" (ie changes His mind). God chastises Jonah but does not say that He doesn't relent. So, God allowed an uncorrected misstatement about Him into the Bible. Or He does relent.

Wow. I bet you could make the Bible say just about anything, playing word games like that!

Who told you that God didn't heal the patient as soon as he became sick??

I thought you might say that. So now who's not reading carefully? Did you miss the bit about preventing the disease in the first place...?

Do you know how Jesus Christ saved Adam and Eve? Do you know how Jesus met Moses? And how Isaiah saw Jesus Christ on the throne?

Do you really think that Christ died only for those who came AFTER Him?

So when were Adam & Eve baptized? Biblical citation, please.

Yes, existence is better than non-existence.

Why? No finite amount of joy can make up for infinite suffering. Non-existence implies neither suffering nor joy. Therefore non-existence is better than infinite suffering. If that's my fate, then non-existence is better than existence.

And sin cannot make God such a sinner as to annihilate what He has created. God judges sin. And those who choose sin, choose the punishment of sin.

Again, choice is irrelevant. See above.

I once showed a person a white paper on which there was a little black point. I asked him: what do you see? He said: a black point...

But my guitar is peace when on fire. Therefore basketball is retroactive under the tree thought.

See? I can string words together, too.

At least the person you showed the paper to saw a point. They're ahead of me.

Yes, it's that difficult for you to choose between sin and God...

Then why does anyone end up in hell? Either no-one does, or some do. Can't have it both ways. If anyone goes to hell, then... see above.

Your little kid asks you for a knife to play with, and you give it to him with a big smile...

Er, what now? Again, seems like your analogy is making our point for us. Your idea of God handed humanity the biggest, sharpest knife there is. Doesn't seem like a wise God, by your own analogy.

God is Wise. He wants the best for you. But if you choose hell, He won't oblige you to go to Heaven. He is ready to forgive you all your sins now. He is asking you to accept His forgiveness. What more do you expect? Do you also want Him to repent in your place?

Again, irrelevant, but since you ask: no, I want Him, being an infinite and perfect being, to come up with a better system to start with. Why have this bizarre setup where someone has to die to satisfy God's justice, but that person can be God and then everyone can just say some magic words and take a bath, and that's good enough? Why can't an almighty God just say "ok, you know what, just say 3 Hail Marys, have someone kick you in the groin, and we'll call it good". Or better yet: "I forgive you". It amounts to the same thing in the end, except nobody has to be killed. Or perhaps God could actually require some serious penance -- seems fair to me: you commit the crime, you do the time, then you're good to go. But infinite suffering because I was, eg, born in Thailand and the idea that taking a magic bath would save me seemed so absurd that I didn't do it...? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

And did you see how much that sign is essential IN Salvation?

Um, nope, sorry I missed that bit. It could be, but I didn't see explicit proof that it was the bath that did the magic. Just that this was a ritual sign that would indicate my true repentance.

All of them really repented. Didn't you say that Baptism is the sign of repentance? So repent, and you will certainly be baptized.

OK, but why can't there be another sign? Like standing on a street corner and handing out business cards that say "I really repented"? Or better yet, helping the homeless and hungry, perhaps. Why the magic dunking or nothing?

Yes, all the followers of Jesus Christ who could be baptized were baptized. And, yes, I have biblical evidence of that:

"Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John" ( John 4:1 )

I look through the red words... but I don't see the word "all". Strange. What I see is reference that one group of people did more baptisms than another group.

Now, again, which of us insists on reading the Bible carefully?

This is how a person becomes a disciple of Christ: baptism. But the essential is to become a TRUE disciple of Christ, and not a liar like Judas who also became a disciple by baptism. And what does Jesus say about TRUE disciples? Here is what He says:

"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."" ( John 8:31-32 )

So Judas I. was baptized? So then why does baptism matter? You've just said that TRUE discipleship (whatever that might mean -- continuing in My word, I guess, whatever that might mean) is the essential part. Let me quote that again: "the essential is to become a TRUE disciple". Not baptism, then. Oops.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

I am confused wasn't it you that said baptism was required or am I remembering incorrectly?

Me too! I'm a bit lost on this particular point... it is necessary, it isn't, it might be... Can we just get a "yes" or "no", by any chance?

By the way, very interesting info on the meaning of the whole "eternal punishment" stuff. Thanks!