Is atheism logical?

[Morcova]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you moral relativism at it's finest.

Us mortal human beings will never understand why God occasionally took such drastic action against evil, as described mainly in the Old Testament.

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you moral relativism at it's finest.

Good point and great observation.

 

[solarwave]

Most definitely. God could exist. There's just no reason to think he does.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Regardless, declaring "God exists!" without evidence is rather foolish.

I suppose you could say it's evidence. Then again, their evidence is on par with "evidence" of alien abduction, "evidence" of ghosts, and "evidence" that the voices in my head belong to Ulysses S. Grant and Robert De Niro. That is to say, such "evidence" is anecdotal, and thus completely useless.

Right. "We can't see God. Therefor, it's certain one exists."

A logic class would do wonders.

I wasn't saying God must exist because we can't see Him, I was just stating a fact separate from what I said before.

Just because you claim there is no evidence for God, it doesn't mean there is none. Atheist or christian, there are good points for there not being a God and some equally good points for there being a God. I believe in God but faith, but nor do I have a lack of evidence for His existance ether.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I wasn't saying God must exist because we can't see Him, I was just stating a fact separate from what I said before.

Just because you claim there is no evidence for God, it doesn't mean there is none. Atheist or christian, there are good points for there not being a God and some equally good points for there being a God. I believe in God but faith, but nor do I have a lack of evidence for His existance ether.

Care to share this evidence? Any evidence supporting, and/or rationale justifying, the existance of any deity topples weak atheism from its position as the logical stance. I daresay such evidence is crucial to the debate.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Care to share this evidence? Any evidence supporting, and/or rationale justifying, the existance of any deity topples weak atheism from its position as the logical stance. I daresay such evidence is crucial to the debate.

I guess the fact that the universe exists or that there is sustainable life created from dust, or that there is so much order and beauty evident in nature is not evidence enough for you?

 

[solarwave]

Care to share this evidence? Any evidence supporting, and/or rationale justifying, the existance of any deity topples weak atheism from its position as the logical stance. I daresay such evidence is crucial to the debate.

Ok, in short I will try to give my reasons for thinking there is a God. Sorry if this turns into a long post, and I wont be able to explain it all fully.

Starting with philosophy, the kalam cosmological argument which says that anything that has a begining must have a cause. The universe had a begining(this can be found using the big bang theory or other philosophical arguments that arenot worthy typing), therefore the universe had a cause. There may be theorys on what made the big bang, but none I know of that are anything but theories with no evidence. Also the teleological argument. This states that there is far too much in the universe that looks designed for it all to be down to random chance. This isn't just the fact that if you look at the sky at night there is beauty, and also beauty all the way down to the microscopic, but also statistical facts. Like the ''fine tuning'' of the universe is so improbable that there must be 'something' that guided the universe to life. Eg: the 'fine tuning' of gravity alone is 1 in ten thousand billion billion billion billion. Also the fact that there is order, when there could have been chaos; there is no reason that we should have the laws just right so that they keep stars and planets together.

Then there is the evidence for Jesus Christs life, death, and resurrection. In very short (ask if you want more detail), the fact that Soul/Paul became a follower of the 'dead' Jesus. The fact that no one knew where the body of Jesus was when no one could have stolen it. The fullfilment of prophecies. And the faith of the disciples.

Personally for me, all that helps, but are not the reason I believe in God. I fine it obvious that God is very real, but I know this is not true for all people. Through my life I have had it proven time and time again that Jesus lives and is the Son of God. I have seen healings, prophecies come true, God work in my life, prays answered and I know my life wouldn't be the same. Just about 3 weeks ago there was a woman in our church who, when people pray for her, her knee was out of the right place for some reason(I think it had been like that for years) and she felt a warmth in her leg, her knee moved to a normal position, and she was healed.

I don't know if anything I have said will convice anyone, maybe not, but really its only going to be through faith anyone will knoe God. I don't claim to be wacky, maybe I am lol, but I think there is good reason to believe in God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Ok, in short I will try to give my reasons for thinking there is a God. Sorry if this turns into a long post, and I wont be able to explain it all fully.

If you justify the existance of a deity, then I think it's worthy of a long post.
However, we run the risk of derailing the thread. This looks like it could be an interesting discussion, so perhaps we should take it to PMs?

Starting with philosophy, the kalam cosmological argument which says that anything that has a begining must have a cause. The universe had a begining(this can be found using the big bang theory or other philosophical arguments that arenot worthy typing), therefore the universe had a cause.

Suffice to say, the Kalam argument is the poorer of the cosmological family. It's initial premise is based on a mathematical fallacy, and so it's conclusions do not logically follow (though they may still just so happen to true).

The Big Bang theory does not say the universe began 13.5 billion years ago. Rather, it posits that the known spacetime continuum and all the matter and energy therein was confined to the tinyest of volumes. For all the theory cares, there could have been a salamander two years before it, whose poop became the 'cosmic egg' (to borrow from Hindu cosmology).

Furthermore, quantum mechanics is grounded in uncaused events and spontenatity; to use the Kalam argument (or any other First Cause argument) requires the rejection of QM. As a theoretical physicist, I do not recommend this .

There may be theorys on what made the big bang, but none I know of that are anything but theories with no evidence.

Without being offensive, this statement highlights your scientific ignorance: a theory by definition has evidence. Quite how an unevidence theory can exist is beyond me.

Also the teleological argument. This states that there is far too much in the universe that looks designed for it all to be down to random chance.

A specious argument to say the least.

1) The appearance of design does not demonstrate actual design.

2) Actual design does not desmonstrate a designer.

The above two can be readily demonstrated by crystals: they are the most ordered things in the known universe, yet they are not designed.

3) Simply claiming that random chance* cannot account for the patterns in the known universe does not make it so.

The theory of common descent is a spectacular example of this: reproduction with variation. That's it. That explains how the majesty of modern biodiversity can arise from obscenely simple systems.

This isn't just the fact that if you look at the sky at night there is beauty, and also beauty all the way down to the microscopic, but also statistical facts. Like the ''fine tuning'' of the universe is so improbable that there must be 'something' that guided the universe to life.

You're going to have to make more than romantic appeals to ignorance, I'm afraid.

Eg: the 'fine tuning' of gravity alone is 1 in ten thousand billion billion billion billion.

What on Earth does this mean? The force of gravity has a specific value, but what is this '1 in 10^40' ?

Also the fact that there is order, when there could have been chaos; there is no reason that we should have the laws just right so that they keep stars and planets together.

Think of it this way: why do we only have stars and planets? The visable universe is full of gaseous bodies and rocky bodies, and not much else. Why is the universe so bland?

It should also be pointed out that amorphous blobs of hydrogen plasma don't constitute divine order.

Then there is the evidence for Jesus Christs life, death, and resurrection. In very short (ask if you want more detail), the fact that Soul/Paul became a follower of the 'dead' Jesus. The fact that no one knew where the body of Jesus was when no one could have stolen it. The fullfilment of prophecies. And the faith of the disciples.

I don't believe that Jesus existed at all, let alone was of divine origin and was resurrected. But by all means, convince me otherwise.

Personally for me, all that helps, but are not the reason I believe in God. I fine it obvious that God is very real, but I know this is not true for all people. Through my life I have had it proven time and time again that Jesus lives and is the Son of God. I have seen healings, prophecies come true, God work in my life, prays answered and I know my life wouldn't be the same. Just about 3 weeks ago there was a woman in our church who, when people pray for her, her knee was out of the right place for some reason(I think it had been like that for years) and she felt a warmth in her leg, her knee moved to a normal position, and she was healed.

Numerous studies have shown that the alleged healing power of Christianity is, at best, a placebo, and at worst a discourager from actual medicinal care.


*As opposed to what? Predetermined chance?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I guess the fact that the universe exists or that there is sustainable life created from dust, or that there is so much order and beauty evident in nature is not evidence enough for you?

The existance of the universe is evidence of nothing more than the universe. If you would care to elaborate on how it is evidence of (a) deity(ies), be my guest.

As far as I am aware, dust has never garnered life (though various texts claim otherwise). And even if it had, I don't see how this evidences anything theological.

Finally, while I have much respect for nature (I am, after all, Wiccan), biological diversity is remarkably well explained by the theories of abiogenesis and common descent. Invoking something as unparsimonious as a deity is nothing short of desperate.


For the record, I appreciate that the teleological argument is a very good example of specious logic; it requires some rather counter-intuitive notions to understand why it is flawed.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

(I am, after all, Wiccan)

So does Wikipedia reasonably well explain what you believe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

 

[Servant of Jesus]

Care to share this evidence? Any evidence supporting, and/or rationale justifying, the existance of any deity topples weak atheism from its position as the logical stance. I daresay such evidence is crucial to the debate.

 

[anonymous1515]

The fact that we exist is not proof of God's existence. It is proof of our existence.

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

Perhaps a better way to understand atheism, is not to look at if it is logical, but look at it in the light of faith. We all believe something, wheter we are convinced there is no God, or convinced there is a God, or convinced it is better to reserve judgement, that is a matter of faith, a person's struggle to find meaning and significance in the human condition.

For me I try not to feel totally convinced there is no God, because I can remember that as a christian, I was totally convinced non-believers were going to hell, and I had fire insurance. So now I see that does not make sense, and that is a result of my faith journey, and probaly therapy and philosophy, and science even really.

It seems like bible literalists are weird quite frankly, you can take an astronomy class and learn the Earth was made in a solar nebula that existed five billion years ago. You can take biology and learn about the dawn of the first humans, and how it took five point six million years to go from an animal that just adjusted it's change in locomotion, to humans even.

So as an honest scientist, you have to rule out Genesis as being literally true. Also there is the problem, you can't prove Jesus' miracles happened and that really why does christianity make any sense to people? I mean it is a story of a human sacrifice, God dies in this story, then somehow comes back to life in three days, to satisfy a rule he made himself, like he couldn't just forgive peoples sins? Then there is the problem of omnipresence, which is like trying to believe in ghosts. You can look around you and see there is nothing but thin atmosphere, you can see it with your own eyes. So how can God hear people's prayers? He is not in the room with you when you are praying, so how is he going to hear what you are saying? A belief in God makes no sense to me.

Like you could say there is a creator, and the world is not an illusion, but God is like sleeping in a distant galaxy, obvisoly complete indifferent to human suffering, and questions about God's existance.

So here is my question, how do you believe there is a creator, and still hope he will visit our planet someday, when there is just no evidence, that he ever has? Maybe he can't even find our planet? There are a lot of stars out there. So I just can't make a belief work, but maybe someday, I will be able to, I don't know, but right now, it just makes no sense, where is God? Where is the creator? Is he really a necessairy being or does tthe universe not need such a being? We'll never know. But keep speculating I guess, it is a mystery what caused the big bang? And those are pretty slim odds to make human beings right out of chemicals that had to come into existance some how. All cool to speculate about really, but I think ther is another explanation to the God did it one, I just think that. That is how the evidence seems to present itself to me.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

Perhaps a better way to understand atheism, is not to look at if it is logical, but look at it in the light of faith. We all believe something, wheter we are convinced there is no God, or convinced there is a God, or convinced it is better to reserve judgement, that is a matter of faith, a person's struggle to find meaning and significance in the human condition.

For me I try not to feel totally convinced there is no God, because I can remember that as a christian, I was totally convinced non-believers were going to hell, and I had fire insurance. So now I see that does not make sense, and that is a result of my faith journey, and probaly therapy and philosophy, and science even really.

It seems like bible literalists are weird quite frankly, you can take an astronomy class and learn the Earth was made in a solar nebula that existed five billion years ago. You can take biology and learn about the dawn of the first humans, and how it took five point six million years to go from an animal that just adjusted it's change in locomotion, to humans even.

So as an honest scientist, you have to rule out Genesis as being literally true. Also there is the problem, you can't prove Jesus' miracles happened and that really why does christianity make any sense to people? I mean it is a story of a human sacrifice, God dies in this story, then somehow comes back to life in three days, to satisfy a rule he made himself, like he couldn't just forgive peoples sins? Then there is the problem of omnipresence, which is like trying to believe in ghosts. You can look around you and see there is nothing but thin atmosphere, you can see it with your own eyes. So how can God hear people's prayers? He is not in the room with you when you are praying, so how is he going to hear what you are saying? A belief in God makes no sense to me.

Like you could say there is a creator, and the world is not an illusion, but God is like sleeping in a distant galaxy, obvisoly complete indifferent to human suffering, and questions about God's existance.

So here is my question, how do you believe there is a creator, and still hope he will visit our planet someday, when there is just no evidence, that he ever has? Maybe he can't even find our planet? There are a lot of stars out there. So I just can't make a belief work, but maybe someday, I will be able to, I don't know, but right now, it just makes no sense, where is God? Where is the creator? Is he really a necessairy being or does tthe universe not need such a being? We'll never know. But keep speculating I guess, it is a mystery what caused the big bang? And those are pretty slim odds to make human beings right out of chemicals that had to come into existance some how. All cool to speculate about really, but I think ther is another explanation to the God did it one, I just think that. That is how the evidence seems to present itself to me.

Fair enough. People of strong faith however can see God working in our lives just as you see the sun in the sky. The things I sense, the events that happen, the people I meet, the places I have been, and the love I feel in my heart just fit too perfectly together for it to be a coincidence. No doubt there are things I will never understand, but I'm okay with it, because some things are better off being a mystery.

I believe proof of God lies within Bible itself (particularly in prophecy). Read the book of Revelation and other prophetic books like Daniel and look around the world we live in. How some old geezers from 2000 years ago could tell us how the rise of rise of globalism, one world economy/government, immorality, idol worship of worldly stuff, the rise of atheism, the pursuit of instant gratification, global violence, disease, hunger, genocide, and natural disasters is more than just a coincidence.

With hell to pay and heaven to gain, why anyone would committ fully to atheism is beyond me. Is the pleasure of this life so great that you don't want to turn from sin and embrace the sacrifice of Christ?

God bless
Justin

 

[anonymous1515]

I admire everything you posted, up until your last line.

With hell to pay and heaven to gain, why anyone would committ fully to atheism is beyond me. Is the pleasure of this life so great that you don't want to turn from sin and embrace the sacrifice of Christ?

Maybe you didn't mean it in this manner, but I don't think that we should believe in Jesus because if we choose not to, and it turns out he really existed and was God, we're screwed. In other words, I don't buy Pascal's wager. Besides, wanting to believe and believing are two different things, are they not? Can you force yourself to beleive if you don't? I, for one, could never force myself to believe the earth is 6000 years old (unless new, convincing evidence surfaces).

 

[UncleHermit]

How some old geezers from 2000 years ago could tell us how the rise of rise of globalism, one world economy/government, immorality, idol worship of worldly stuff, the rise of atheism, the pursuit of instant gratification, global violence, disease, hunger, genocide, and natural disasters is more than just a coincidence.

I don't find the parts I bolded very convincing, as they were already happening at the time. What are the verses for the other three?

With hell to pay and heaven to gain, why anyone would committ fully to atheism is beyond me.

I don't know what it means to "committ fully to atheism", but I would guess that most people who are atheists are simply not convinced that there is a god.

Is the pleasure of this life so great that you don't want to turn from sin and embrace the sacrifice of Christ?

No, and I think that believing/disbelieving in something because of the perceived consequences of said belief is the wrong way to go about discovering the truth.

 

[Eudaimonist]

With hell to pay and heaven to gain, why anyone would committ fully to atheism is beyond me. Is the pleasure of this life so great that you don't want to turn from sin and embrace the sacrifice of Christ?

It seems that you have some way to go in understanding atheists. Nonbelief in gods has nothing to do with preferring "the pleasure of this life" to anything else. It has to do with not being rationally persuaded that gods exist. Atheists want to know what really is real, instead of what other people may happen to think is real.

Once you understand this, you will have come a long way in understanding the typical atheist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DoubtingThomas29]

With hell to pay and heaven to gain, why anyone would committ fully to atheism is beyond me. Is the pleasure of this life so great that you don't want to turn from sin and embrace the sacrifice of Christ?

God bless
Justin

Hello,

I just thought I would point out something about religion here and how it can affect people. Now I know I am not a believer and I have my reasons for that, however consider what you are saying. With Hell to pay and heaven to gain why wouldn't you be christian?

I believe that there might be a creator, but I don't think he has revealed himself to anybody on the Earth. The real reasons why there are billions of people that believe in God, are complex. One reason is because we as sophisticated animals have a deep psychological need to feel protected, and religion tries to tell us that we are protected by God, and even in the ten commandments there is a promise, that if yo honor your mother and father you shall live long on the Earth. Which is not true plenty of good people have died young. You can be a good person and die young.

However, there is also a brilliant marketing strategy that christianity has done, it has created a psychological need. it is saying if you don't believe this you'll go to hell for all eternity, while at the same time saying, if you do believe this, you will go to heaven for all eternity. That is called marketing, christianity is creating a psycholigical need in the two point one billion people who are christian. It is telling these people to believe this story, so you too can have everlasting life.

Now think about that they are saying, if you believe this story, you will live forever, but if you don't believe this story, you will live forever but in a not so nice place. So for one thing you can change your mind if you want, you can say on the one hand I believe this stoy today, but what about five years from now? Will I believe it then? Plenty of people believe at one point in their life and quit believing at another. So how can we seriously believe just by adhering to a belief that a story is true we will live forever, when in fact there is evidence that we have no good reason to believe Jesus came back from the dead? You can't prove Jesus came back from the dead, it cannot be done, and you can thank modern philosophy for teaching us that fact.

Whether you believe or not believe the christian story, that is a matter of faith, and takes a lot of personal struggle to reach a conclusion on wheter or not to believe it or not. Good luck searching to you, and may the God of your choice, help this stuff make sense.

 

[Braunwyn]

Nonbelief in gods has nothing to do with preferring "the pleasure of this life" to anything else. It has to do with not being rationally persuaded that gods exist. Atheists want to know what really is real, instead of what other people may happen to think is real.

I think it's also important to note that there have been/are plenty of people world-wide that don't accept christ and actively reject instant gratification as an aspect of the life path they've chosen.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I'm glad you posted this, because it shows what is wrong with that Bible quote.

It isn't self-evident that anything the man in the story is witnessing is a sign of the existence of God. It might as well be a sign that the universe is natural and God doesn't exist. Or it could be a sign that Zeus is real.

It doesn't answer anything, but only serves the purpose of preaching to the choir.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So does Wikipedia reasonably well explain what you believe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca

I think so, yes. Your point? I'd also appreciate it if you responded to my post in its entirety, rather than pick on my one mention of my faith (Creationists have a funny habit of doing that; like moths to a flame...).

We have already agreed that the world is (at times) beautiful and awe-inspiring. I'm still wondering how this evidences the existance of your (or any other) deity.