Is Astrology a science?

[Hans Blaster]

Astrology is a form of witchcraft. Scripture lumps them all in together
Daniel 4:7 When all the magicians, enchanters, astrologers, and fortune-tellers came in, I told them the dream, but they could not tell me what it meant.

Isaiah 47:13-14 All the advice you receive has made you tired. Where are all your astrologers, those stargazers who make predictions each month? Let them stand up and save you from what the future holds. But they are like straw burning in a fire; they cannot save themselves from the flame. You will get no help from them at all; their hearth is no place to sit for warmth.

Leviticus 20:6 If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

So they should be burned? Seems a bit excessive for promulgating nonsense devoid of power and meaning.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Can you explain how determinism would lead us to a correlation between celestial affairs and human affairs? Even if both are "fated", that wouldnt necessarily provide us with relationship between the two, as far as I can tell.

That proposed relationship forms the essence of astrology. Without it there's no sense in which it could be a science.

(I say this as a person who's paid good money to have my birth chart read.)

It is a bit difficult to explain the nitty-gritty of a hypothetical? But that is not the essence of Astrology. I put it as predicting temperament or events by the stars, which if you can use those stars to determine how matter acts in forming planets and the situation that will then form on said planet, why not? Historically Astrology did not have a cause and effect relationship at all, but rather the stars were merely signs of events on earth - the sublunary sphere being imperfect and mutable. With our more mechanical minded culture, we would look for some closer relationship, but I see no reason our future astrologer-scientist couldn't hypothesise some form of quantum entanglement between heavenly matter and the earthly ones; or some force acting on it, like gravity. However I was thinking more along the lines of determining the actions of matter by astrophysics and applying it mundanely.

Even for Laplace's Demon, the astrological parameters at someone's birth would be insufficient to calculate anything useful about life on Earth.

If you were Laplace's Demon, with complete knowledge of the state of every particle in the universe at the time of someone's birth, and infinite computational capability, you could calculate the state of the universe or any part of the universe at any time past or future - which would allow you to calculate the state of that individual at any time, including their birth. But you'd already know that because that's where you started...

You don't need perfection. None of the Sciences are perfect. We assume how gasses act by drawing a hypothetical Perfect gas from the imperfect expressions of the relationships of other gasses, for instance. You just need sufficient to be able to draw such correlations to make testable hypotheses and have them borne out on occasion. I don't think this feasible today, but I don't think this completely far-fetched in a determinist mindset until reaching a Laplace Demon. Besides, the infatuation with explaining emotions or actions as electro-chemical relations in the body is halfway there already, reducing down to chemistry and physics.

 

[coffee4u]

So they should be burned? Seems a bit excessive for promulgating nonsense devoid of power and meaning.

That was Old Testament Jewish law. We are neither Jewish nor living in 1,300 BC.
The point is that all of these practices where condemned by God and they are still condemned by God.

 

[Bradskii]

That was Old Testament Jewish law. We are neither Jewish nor living in 1,300 BC.

So I guess we can skip the ten commandments as well. Which is something of a relief as I've broken 8 of them.

 

[durangodawood]

It is a bit difficult to explain the nitty-gritty of a hypothetical? But that is not the essence of Astrology. I put it as predicting temperament or events by the stars, which if you can use those stars to determine how matter acts in forming planets and the situation that will then form on said planet, why not? Historically Astrology did not have a cause and effect relationship at all, but rather the stars were merely signs of events on earth - the sublunary sphere being imperfect and mutable. With our more mechanical minded culture, we would look for some closer relationship, but I see no reason our future astrologer-scientist couldn't hypothesise some form of quantum entanglement between heavenly matter and the earthly ones; or some force acting on it, like gravity. However I was thinking more along the lines of determining the actions of matter by astrophysics and applying it mundanely.....

Are you saying there might actually be some meaningful and comprehensible relationship between astronomical affairs and the sorts of human affairs that astrologers are concerned with? Because thats what it sounds like.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That was Old Testament Jewish law. We are neither Jewish nor living in 1,300 BC.
The point is that all of these practices where condemned by God and they are still condemned by God.

So then why did you quote the part about burning them in your post:

"But they are like straw burning in a fire; they cannot save themselves from the flame. " if it doesn't apply anymore. (I wouldn't have even replied before if I hadn't seen this line quoted in your post.)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Laplace's demon could not predict a person's personality or life course from perfect knowledge of astronomical affairs tho.

Yes, that's what I said.

"Even for Laplace's Demon, the astrological parameters at someone's birth would be insufficient to calculate anything useful about life on Earth."

 

[durangodawood]

Yes, that's what I said.

"Even for Laplace's Demon, the astrological parameters at someone's birth would be insufficient to calculate anything useful about life on Earth."

I am failing at being Laplace's demon.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You don't need perfection. None of the Sciences are perfect. We assume how gasses act by drawing a hypothetical Perfect gas from the imperfect expressions of the relationships of other gasses, for instance. You just need sufficient to be able to draw such correlations to make testable hypotheses and have them borne out on occasion. I don't think this feasible today, but I don't think this completely far-fetched in a determinist mindset until reaching a Laplace Demon. Besides, the infatuation with explaining emotions or actions as electro-chemical relations in the body is halfway there already, reducing down to chemistry and physics.

Laplace's Demon is perfect by definition, because that's what it would take to calculate the position and state of every particle for all time in a deterministic universe. The demon is a thought experiment, not something that could be real.

But of course, you don't need perfection to make approximations. As it happens, there is no evidence for any correlation between astrological indicators and what astrology purports to describe or predict. Nor are there any suitable mechanisms by which such a correlation might arise.

The season of birth might plausibly affect an individual's development, but not the planets, zodiac, or other astronomical events or objects - unless those signs resulted in the individual being treated differently as they developed - a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

duplicate

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I am failing at being Laplace's demon.

Predictable...

 

[durangodawood]

....The season of birth might plausibly affect an individual's development, but not the planets, zodiac, or other astronomical events or objects - unless those signs resulted in the individual being treated differently as they developed - a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like feeding cat food to your Leo kids.

 

[Phred]

Astrology is a form of witchcraft. Scripture lumps them all in together

Witches!!!
Witches!!!
Witches!!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

As a Gemini I'm in two minds over that comment.

Well this isn't fair, I was going to make this exact same joke. Now I can't. Such a typical Gemini thing to do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ophiolite]

Well this isn't fair, I was going to make this exact same joke. Now I can't. Such a typical Gemini thing to do.

-CryptoLutheran

On the Chinese horoscope, which relates character to year of birth, I am a rat. According to a book I read on the subject decades ago Gemini rats are the super rats of the astrological world. You stood no chance against my ratty super-powers!

 

[ViaCrucis]

On the Chinese horoscope, which relates character to year of birth, I am a rat. According to a book I read on the subject decades ago Gemini rats are the super rats of the astrological world. You stood no chance against my ratty super-powers!

This dog is too tired and lazy to hunt rats, so you win this time.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[durangodawood]

I'm a fire-goat.

Creative, fragile, sensitive, ballsy, feisty. This is one complex individual.
Fire Goats are quite tough on the outside but a complete softie in real life.
These characters are extraordinarily talented.
The Fire Goat is effectively lovely, they have a very genuine heart and are fundamentally gorgeous

Chinese Zodiac: What is the Fire Goat sign and what does it mean?

But yall already knew that..

 

[Sodafox]

I did my chart years ago and hasten to put much credence in the practice. But the thread made me recall it nonetheless. There's interesting parallels to its suggestions and my personality and the way my life turned out. Is it a coincidence or something more? Who knows.

~bella

I think those charts are as vague as possible that anyone could find traits they share with pretty much any of them. Alternately, depending on when you did the chart or became interested in astrology, you could've started forming your personality on that description. Ex: I started getting interested I think when I was 10 or so. Chinese zodiac around 14. I grew out of it but it still influenced me for years.

 

[bèlla]

Alternately, depending on when you did the chart or became interested in astrology, you could've started forming your personality on that description.

I did it in my thirties. My personality was well formed by then.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

I'm a fire-goat.

But yall already knew that..

I might as well spill the goods. I’m 0 degrees Virgo. A true cusp with Leo rising.

Metal Pig: They enjoy a good friend, good food, good sex, good book, and just plain enjoy life.

Spot on!