Is Astrology a science?

[Diamond72]

Initially you claim Noah's flood occurred in the Tigris Euphrates river valley making it a local flood which contradicts the Biblical account.

No it does not contradict the Bible. It contradicts false translations and false interpretations of the Bible. This will all get straightened out in Heaven. People will know the truth there.

 

[Diamond72]

You can produce things that he wrote himself.

People who deny the Bible put no effort into what they claim to believe

 

[Diamond72]

Noah is a mythical individual.

Noah was a real person. There was a real literal flood. Anyone who has put any effort into seeking to know the truth will know that Noah is real. The Bible is symbolic, the Bible is an archetype. But it is not a myth. That is the problem with the public school system. They do not teach people the truth and they do not teach Greek Mythology. People are like a parrot and they repeat what they hear without putting any effort into researching their claims.

 

[Hans Blaster]

This is confusing.
Initially you claim Noah's flood occurred in the Tigris Euphrates river valley making it a local flood which contradicts the Biblical account.
Then you conclude Noah saved the civilized world which would make the flood global not local.
You can't have it both ways, in fact you can't have it either way as the earliest historically attestable person found in the Bible supported by archaeological evidence in Egypt is the 22nd dynasty pharaoh Shoshenq I, whose name is translated into Shishak in the Bible.
Noah is a mythical individual.

As far a global flood taking place in Pangea you are also contradicting the creationists relying on the pseudoscience of flood geology by claiming the Pangean flood is contemporaneous with Noah's time

It really feels like an attempt to mash together a very specific YEC timeline with some real science, both perhaps poorly remembered, and it ends up an incoherent mess.

 

[Hans Blaster]

People who deny the Bible put no effort into what they claim to believe

Bibles are definitely real. I've got one somewhere around here...

 

[Astrid]

Well according to some hard core fanatics here the worldwide flood occurred in 2348 BC, are you suggesting that Pangea existed at this time?
If on the other hand you accept the scientific account that Pangea began breaking up around 200 million years ago and given the Bible provides an eyewitness account through Noah, implies humans have been around for at least 200 million years.

So which is the correct version?
Here is a hint, neither is correct

I didn't realize "we know" about a
world wide flood covering "Pangea".

Tectonics is cool but we get tecticians
moving continents about in ways that are apt
to look pretty foolish, later.
Let alone "iceball" and "flood" as if they are
known facts.

 

[FaithT]

This is simple enough. We all know biology and chemistry and geology are fields of scientific endeavor. But what about Astrology? Do you consider that Astrology is a science?

Nope

 

[Astrid]

It really feels like an attempt to mash together a very specific YEC timeline with some real science, both perhaps poorly remembered, and it ends up an incoherent mess.

The police take full advantage when interrogating
someone, knowing what happens if they are making up
their story.

 

[sjastro]

No it does not contradict the Bible. It contradicts false translations and false interpretations of the Bible. This will all get straightened out in Heaven. People will know the truth there.

So the message you are conveying is don't believe everything you read in the Bible.
I suspect the literalists in Christian, Jewish and even the Islamic faiths would be deeply concerned by this.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Noah was a real person.

Can you provide a source for Noah *other* than the Torah?

There was a real literal flood.

As you wrote in a previous post:

Noah's flood in the Tigris Euphrates river valley took place in 2348 BC.

This is a very specific claim. If it is correct, then there should be some archeological evidence. You put it before as a flood of Mesopotamia. In the standard (middle) chronology this would be during the reign of the Sumerian king Lugal-Zegesi, the last Sumerian king before they were conquered by Sargon of Akkad and absorbed into the even larger Akkadian empire. (ca. 2334 BCE)

No mention of a flood (or a Noah) threatening all of civilization (or at least all of Sumeria) during his reign:

Lugal-zage-si - Wikipedia

Now maybe I have the wrong king as the historical chronologies are not absolutely certain as there are gaps between shorter internally consistent chronologies that cannot be connected up to the present. Do you have a better example?

Anyone who has put any effort into seeking to know the truth will know that Noah is real.

And what evidence should we review to "seek this truth"?

The Bible is symbolic, the Bible is an archetype. But it is not a myth.

The bible contains many types of literature. These and many more.

That is the problem with the public school system. They do not teach people the truth and they do not teach Greek Mythology.

That's odd. I don't recall them us teaching us anything that was untrue as if it were true. Most of what I know about Greek mythology I learned in a public school. I'd rather not think much about that production of Oedipus Rex we watched. (~~Shiver~~)

People are like a parrot and they repeat what they hear without putting any effort into researching their claims.

I was thinking the same thing...

 

[Kylie]

People who deny the Bible put no effort into what they claim to believe

Non sequitur.

Just another of the myriad unsupported claims brought out by believers to denigrate anyone who doesn't also believe.

And, ironically, your claim is one which requires no effort.

 

[sjastro]

Noah was a real person. There was a real literal flood. Anyone who has put any effort into seeking to know the truth will know that Noah is real. The Bible is symbolic, the Bible is an archetype. But it is not a myth. That is the problem with the public school system. They do not teach people the truth and they do not teach Greek Mythology. People are like a parrot and they repeat what they hear without putting any effort into researching their claims.

I have no idea why Greek mythology should even be mentioned in your post.
According to the Torah and Christian Bibles Noah also lived to 950 years old.
Do you think this qualifies Noah as being a real person?

 

[sjastro]

It really feels like an attempt to mash together a very specific YEC timeline with some real science, both perhaps poorly remembered, and it ends up an incoherent mess.

Mythology and science don't mix.

 

[sjastro]

I didn't realize "we know" about a
world wide flood covering "Pangea".

Tectonics is cool but we get tecticians
moving continents about in ways that are apt
to look pretty foolish, later.
Let alone "iceball" and "flood" as if they are
known facts.

I did first year geology as an undergrad.
I found plate tectonics with its sea floor spreading and convection currents in the mantle driving the plates fascinating stuff.
The prediction for sea floor spreading resulting in the symmetrical patterns of magnetic polarity around the mid Atlantic ridge due to reversals in the Earth's magnetic field is a great example lateral thinking.

 

[Astrid]

Noah was a real person. There was a real literal flood. Anyone who has put any effort into seeking to know the truth will know that Noah is real. The Bible is symbolic, the Bible is an archetype. But it is not a myth. That is the problem with the public school system. They do not teach people the truth and they do not teach Greek Mythology. People are like a parrot and they repeat what they hear without putting any effort into researching their claims.

The flood was real even though the
only part the Bible got right was "water".

Can you provide a source for Noah *other* than the Torah?



As you wrote in a previous post:


This is a very specific claim. If it is correct, then there should be some archeological evidence. You put it before as a flood of Mesopotamia. In the standard (middle) chronology this would be during the reign of the Sumerian king Lugal-Zegesi, the last Sumerian king before they were conquered by Sargon of Akkad and absorbed into the even larger Akkadian empire. (ca. 2334 BCE)

No mention of a flood (or a Noah) threatening all of civilization (or at least all of Sumeria) during his reign:

Lugal-zage-si - Wikipedia

Now maybe I have the wrong king as the historical chronologies are not absolutely certain as there are gaps between shorter internally consistent chronologies that cannot be connected up to the present. Do you have a better example?



And what evidence should we review to "seek this truth"?


The bible contains many types of literature. These and many more.

That's odd. I don't recall them us teaching us anything that was untrue as if it were true. Most of what I know about Greek mythology I learned in a public school. I'd rather not think much about that production of Oedipus Rex we watched. (~~Shiver~~)


I was thinking the same thing...

Ask not for whom the thought is thunk.

 

[Astrid]

I did first year geology as an undergrad.
I found plate tectonics with its sea floor spreading and convection currents in the mantle driving the plates fascinating stuff.
The prediction for sea floor spreading resulting in the symmetrical patterns of magnetic polarity around the mid Atlantic ridge due to reversals in the Earth's magnetic field is a great example lateral thinking.

Terrific stuff.

My commet is just that like "climate change"
it tends to be overapplied.

 

[sjastro]

Terrific stuff.

My commet is just that like "climate change"
it tends to be overapplied.

In relation to a "Pangean flood" this is a story cooked up by creationists, and is not supported by evidence.
Creationists have gone a step further by claiming the great flood was the cause for Pangea breaking up based on a bizarre piece of pseudoscience known as "catastrophic plate tectonics."

In the 60s and 70s a simple creationist model proposed that, "The Flood split the land mass into the present continents."[92] Steve Austin and other creationists proposed a preliminary model of catastrophic plate tectonics (CPT) in 1994.[81] Their work built on earlier papers by John Baumgardner and Russell Humphreys in 1986.[94][95] Baumgardner proposed a model of mantle convection that allows for runaway subduction and Humphrey associated mantle convection with rapid magnetic reversals in earth history. Baumgardner's proposal holds that the rapid plunge of former oceanic plates into the mantle (caused by an unknown trigger-mechanism) increased local mantle pressures to the point that its viscosity dropped several magnitudes according to known properties of mantle silicates. Once initiated, sinking plates caused the spread of low viscosity throughout the mantle resulting in runaway mantle-convection and catastrophic tectonic motion which dragged continents across the surface of the earth. Once the former ocean plates, which are thought to be denser than the mantle, reached the bottom of the mantle an equilibrium resulted. Pressures dropped, viscosity increased, runaway mantle-convection stopped, leaving the surface of the earth rearranged. Proponents point to subducted slabs in the mantle which are still relatively cool, which they regard as evidence that they have not been there for millions of years which would result in temperature equilibration.[96]

Given that conventional plate tectonics accounts for much of the geomorphic features of continents and oceans, it is natural that creationists would seek to develop a high speed version of the same process. CPT explains many geological features, provides mechanisms for the biblical flood, and minimizes appeals to miracles.[97]

Some prominent creationists (Froede, Oard, Read) oppose CPT for various technical reasons. One main objection is that the model assumes the super continent Pangaea was intact at the initiation of the year-long flood. The CPT process then tore Pangaea apart creating the current configuration of the continents. But the breakup of Pangaea started early in the Mesozoic, meaning that CPT only accounts for part of the entire Phanerozoic geological record. CPT in this form only explains part of the geological column that flood geology normally explains. Modifying the CPT model to account for the entire Phanerozoic including multiple Wilson Cycles would complicate the model considerably.

 

[AV1611VET]

In relation to a "Pangean flood" this is a story cooked up by creationists,

Soup's on!

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

 

[inquiring mind]

Doesn't Astrology speculate and predict too?

 

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't Astrology speculate and predict too?

Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.