Is apologetics a WOF concern?

[hopeinGod]

How does the WOF community view apologists like Ravi Zacharias and Os Guinness? Do any part of their messages regarding the strong need for the church to grow in understanding logic and historical isms reach their ears? Of do they lump all that stuff into a bucket called "vain philosophies" and turn away from it?

None of Zacharias' message ever reached me when I was part of nondenoms. I'm just wondering if lessons similar to Ravi's are getting a place in the WOF camps.

 

[Truthfrees]

I haven't heard of either of these.

Are you saying they're wof?

If so, what makes you think they're wof?

IOW, how do you decide someone is wof?

 

[hopeinGod]

I'm not stating that those who teach apologetics are from the WOF camps. In fact, they aren't. They are mostly from the evangelical camps, but Zacharias and Guinness, who are more like professors, not preachers, have such great depth of truth to offer those of us who enjoy evangelizing the lost. The information they provide is worth listening to; but, of course, most folks from the WOF camps, I would say, have never heard of these men, mostly because of the great anti-intellectualism inherent in WOF.

I recommend listening to Ravi Zacharias and Os Guinness who can both be found online. RZIM | HELPING THE THINKER BELIEVE. HELPING THE BELIEVER THINK. is good place to start and there's all kinds of free stuff to listen to that he offers from his messags on college campuses and other places all over the world.

 

[Truthfrees]

To start, the LORD gave us:

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." - Ephesians 4:11-16

TEACHERS will have a different style than PREACHERS, but I see PREACHERS in every camp, not just wof.

WOF have apologists too. We're just as pro-intellectual as anyone here.

IMO, most people don't listen to wof TEACHERS carefully enough to hear the apologetics presented.

We have apologists even on this forum who can TEACH what we believe.

I also know wof apologists I can invite to join us here to discuss our beliefs, IF we can all agree to stick to the discussion of scripture, and not fall into judging and attacking any individual or group.

A true intellectual ISN'T going to want to have a discussion with people who're disobeying the LORD'S words to speak the truth in love.

Or I can tell you of 2 forums where doctrinal discussions are conducted and the mods DON'T allow disrespectful comments to be made.

 

[Andrea411]

How does the WOF community view apologists like Ravi Zacharias and Os Guinness? Do any part of their messages regarding the strong need for the church to grow in understanding logic and historical isms reach their ears? Of do they lump all that stuff into a bucket called "vain philosophies" and turn away from it?

None of Zacharias' message ever reached me when I was part of nondenoms. I'm just wondering if lessons similar to Ravi's are getting a place in the WOF camps.

I bought that series Foundations from RZIM. Great series will listen to it many times. it's about 15 hours of teaching by numerous apologists. What I love about Ravi is not just his intellect, which is amazing, but the heart of the way he presents his apologetics.

He can sit with muslims, mormons or Hindus and not offend them. Yet is uncompromising on the scriptures. Just wonderful. Just to watch him interact is a teaching in itself. So much concern for people yet respecting the people, even those that choose to believe differently.

I have been reading N.T. Wright's, Surprised by Hope... loved it. That is a book all charismatics, end-times folks should read... wow what a vision for heaven on earth he has... stunning. He speaks of the work of the cross, the resurrection power that raised Christ from the dead as the same power that transforms us and is transforming the world even as we speak. The whole point of the gospel is not about after we die, its about how we live... and he explains it in a riveting way... just loved it. I am reading the 'Authority of Scripture' and 'Case for the Psalms' now. Wright doesn't cut corners, he goes after everyone - respectfully but with more of an edge than Ravi. Wright is truly disappointed in the church for what they too often pass off as gospel and he goes after the Anglicans as well (Former Anglican Bishop).
I am not familiar with Guiness.. I have a few others I enjoy. I want to read theologians that are respectful of Spirit-filled believers. Even if they are not.

God bless, andrea

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I would not say that WoF is "anti-intellectualism."
There is a difference between "sense knowledge" and "intellectualism."
WoFers, are not stupid people nor are they uneducated. Not bragging mind you, but I have a tested IQ of 168 math, 143 verbal. I graduated with a degree in Computer Technology/Programming with a perfect 4.0 GPA. I know of many others in the WoF camp (and the general Christian cohort) who have similar credentials. Even then, just because a person does not have the degrees that does not mean they are dumb. I used to work in a mill where there were many illiterate people. Yet in the mechanical/process world where they worked, some of these people were nigh unto genius. By genius I mean they could "see" in their minds the solution to complex mechanical/process problems.
OTOH I have worked in state colleges for 16 years and I KNOW people who have doctorates and masters degrees who frankly are as dumb as a box of hammers. Not to be mean, please; this is merely an observation. All that doctorate meant was that they had the time and money to go out and get it.
Wofers are not against theology per se, we are against theology that contradicts the principles of the doctrine of Christ. Theology has a tendency to explain away the things of God and render faith dead. Doubt and unbelief find it very easy to hide behind a cloak of intellectualism.
As far a theologians... I suspect everyone who has a learned opinion of God is a theologian. They may not have a degree, but they have embarked on a study (logian) of God (theo). I am a theologian, so are you. IMHO, Kenneth Hagin and E.W. Kenyon were fantastic theologians. They carried their theory over into the practical side. That is what WOF is about. It wants to do more than merely talk about it. It wants to do it. It wants to know and see God. It wants to see answered prayer and miracles. I have to say most theologians seem to come up short on the practical aspect of these things. My four volume set of books on Theology by Hodges just seems dead. It has a lot of ideas and concepts, but I find the approach unfulfilling and unsatisfying.
If you have been around CF for a while, especially the Charismatic Spirit Filled area, you will know that I have waged a "War" on "mere theism." Mere theism is Theology without Christ. Those infected with mere theism overrule the words of Jesus with intellectual concepts about God. For instance, we hear Jesus say "all things are possible if you only believe." Now someone infected with mere theism will unconsciously tack the phrase "if it be Gods' will" on the end of that statement. They do this because they hold to a number of "mere theist" concepts such as:
God is in control of everything
God is sovereign over all (to the degree that nothing can happen apart from His will)
Gods' will is connected to His power therefore His will is automatically implemented into creation
God can do anything, even if it is against His will and nature
God knows everything that is going to happen (consider open theism)
God sees everything all at once

All these concepts ignore the Christ principle in God and creation. They do not see that God is defined by His character, not just by his ability (Love rules not power). They do not conceive that God (like Christ) sovereignly laid down certain aspects of His divinity when He brought forth a creation. God risks, and even loses sometimes because He created a universe of the possible. The attribute of impassability would have us believe that God is not touched by His creation. This is not so. He is. That is the whole point of the Christ Creation. He desires us to touch Him with love and faith. Many times theology just misses this.
Be aware that many in WOF (included my much loved friends here) may not agree with what I am saying here. Yet having been Wof for over 42 years, these are concepts WoF has led me to believe. We have to live in a creation of the possible in order for the plans and purposes of the heart of God to be achieved.
Wow.... too much for one post.
Much of this is detailed in my book "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth".
Blessings
Dids

 

[Truthfrees]

I think wof believers WOULD agree with you.

Great post.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

How does the WOF community view apologists like Ravi Zacharias and Os Guinness? Do any part of their messages regarding the strong need for the church to grow in understanding logic and historical isms reach their ears? Of do they lump all that stuff into a bucket called "vain philosophies" and turn away from it?

None of Zacharias' message ever reached me when I was part of nondenoms. I'm just wondering if lessons similar to Ravi's are getting a place in the WOF camps.

Dear saint,
Sorry, ashamed to say that I have not read up on these two. Thanks to your prompting you have excited my curiosity and I will surly look them up. Hope there is some stuff on the web or on youtube.
Peace and Joy be yours.

Dids

 

[hopeinGod]

I much appreciated the perspectives presented in the above posts.

The anti-intellectualism I have noticed in the Charismatic groups show up as being entirely against psychology, psychiatry, politics, and the sciences in general, all because they don't place Jesus at the center of their thinking. How ironic, when, as we can easily see in those fields just how many principles have been borrowed from the throne of God.

Forgiveness. Self talk. Hope. An uncondemning look at a person's past. Acceptance. And so much more that lines up with the fruit of the Spirit, is present.

In fact, most of today's Christian psychology has been borrowed from the secularists, though not ferociously thought of as being vain philosophies, but rather, for bringing hope and healing in other ways that don't necessarily conform to the stand-in-line-and-wait-for-the-man-of-God-to-touch-you process.

Even the medications can be helpful, especially if one struggles with anxiety and depression. Sure, there are those who simply can't endure the meds, and for them, they should avoid them, but for others, the meds help them to function well and they thank God for them.

In other areas of scholasticism, I find Ravi makes use of long passages of writing even from the most nihilstic and existential writers of the past, from Oscar Wilde to Frederick Nietsche. The way he is able to put together the history of thought, theories and belief systems and how they have added or subtracted to our lives, influencing in ways we really don't notice, is astounding to hear.. How I would love to sit around his supper table and make conversation.

I discovered from Ravi that we needn't fear anything that we pick up as if the book is demond possessed. It is merely an item that needs to be understood in the light of its history, founder, inventor, etc.

Those with who I spent most of my time with in the first decade of my Christian walk were pretty much overzealous of mandates to keep from evil influences, without ever realizing, if they were to ever deal with the heathen and those items were his/her bible, that showing some understanding toward them just might open them to you.

Instead, right away, we used to condemn the readers of such material, tell them they were headed for hell and that there was no hope for them. In contrast, Ravi shows us just how to love the lost no matter where they are, no matter what they read, no matter their country, their language or their dogma. And the love is always there.

 

[Andrea411]

I much appreciated the perspectives presented in the above posts.

The anti-intellectualism I have noticed in the Charismatic groups show up as being entirely against psychology, psychiatry, politics, and the sciences in general, all because they don't place Jesus at the center of their thinking. How ironic, when, as we can easily see in those fields just how many principles have been borrowed from the throne of God.

Forgiveness. Self talk. Hope. An uncondemning look at a person's past. Acceptance. And so much more that lines up with the fruit of the Spirit, is present.

In fact, most of today's Christian psychology has been borrowed from the secularists, though not ferociously thought of as being vain philosophies, but father, for bringing hope and healing in other ways that don't necessarily conform to the stand-in-line-and-wait-for-the-man-of-God-to-touch-you process.

Even the medications can be helpful, especially if one struggles with anxiety and depression. Sure, there are those who simply can't endure the meds, and for them, they should avoid them, but for others, the meds help them to function well and they thank God for them.

In other areas of scholasticism, I find Ravi makes use of long passages of writing even from the most nihilstic and existential writers of the past, from Oscar Wilde to Frederick Nietsche. The way he is able to put together the history of thought, theories and belief systems and how they have added or subtracted to our lives, influencing in ways we really don't notice, is astounding to hear.. How I would love to sit around his supper table and make conversation.

I discovered from Ravi that we needn't fear anything that we pick up as if the book is demond possessed. It is merely an item that needs to be understood in the light of its history, founder, inventor, etc.

Those with who I spent most of my time with in the first decade of my Christian walk were pretty much overzealous of the WOF mandates to keep from evil influences, without ever realizing, if they were to ever deal with the heathen and those items were his bible, that showing some understanding toward them just might open them to you. Instead, right away, we used to condemn the readers of such material, ttell them they were headed for hell and that there was no hope for them. In contrast, Ravi shows us just how to love the lost no matter where they are, no matter what they read, no matter their country, their language or their dogma. And he a master at it.

I would love to sit in the back of the room when Ravi is teaching and hear how he formulates his lectures to reach specific audiences. Truly being all things to all people without compromising the word. He has taught many people now, this apologetic method. I am in awe of his brilliance in pulling together all the details of different religions, philosophers and secular writers throughout the ages... and bringing them before the light of Christ.

I find a similar dynamic in NT Wright. Who writes on the importance of beauty and poetry in our lives. How even in secular art we can show forth the beauty of God's creation. How our talents are all from the lord and are His handiwork and there is a need for Christians to recognize this.

As far as psychology, I don't find the study of human behavior to be any different than studying societies (sociology) or studying medicine... it infuriates me that the church will demonize a person having issues that may very well be just as physical as diabetes and express through a mental problem... i.e.: depression, OCDs, bi-polar etc etc. Let alone a mental illness which needs medical treatment.
I also believe in deliverance but I believe in deliverance for all illness... and that it's not a shouting match bt us and satan but prayer... demons aren't deaf and people with mental issues especially schizophrenia should not hear anything during a deliverance. They can have ear buds on, if its demons they still hear. But thats a longer thread than we can do here...
I have been healed of many issues some deliverance, some in counseling, some in psychotherapy and some through medication, some miraculous. The Lord used every circumstance for my healing, much deeper then just healing the problems but in learning about who I am in Him... We miss so much when we refuse to suffer WITH God and use all that He offers for our healing.

God bless, andrea

 

[Alive_Again]

I would love to see some of these guys get baptized in the Holy Spirit. I usually hear them for a little after I can't find some of the anointed guys are already gone. I wish it were not true, but it is that way for a reason.

That's the difference... The anointing in the baptism ministers life on a different level. I personally like apologetics. For me, it's part of searching out the Word. I like to know why Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is not a "force". I've spent a lot of time around Mormons and JWs and people from "The Way". They are schooled in "rightly un-dividing" the Word. They have help from all of the spinsters who worked on this in the councils of the principalities.

They know which scriptures or translations need "re-doing" and then they train (the regular believer) just like a seminarian so they can get somebody all messed up. Sad to say, because it's done in a loving way typically, and in their mind, for the sake of your salvation...

I enjoy reading why science is in the Bible from people like Ray Comfort. I like to hear the "arguments" people project to (supposedly) support doctrines that I believe are clearly amiss.

My favorite is the scriptures themselves; why there is a God in nature, etc. Why there has to be "truth" or answers to questions people have as to why the world is in the shape it's in.

Having said all of that, very little of it ministers life when I hear it. Much of it is "head" or "soul" stuff and we get information, but it's transmitted to you without the anointing.

Sometimes you get something from a minister who is Spirit filled and they are knowledgable about it and it is both informative and part of something that ministers life.

So I can tell that Ravi's meat and potatoes doesn't have the gravy, but it's got something because the guy in the building next door who won't read the Book of James (at my behest) will listen to Ravi on his phone. I believe God uses that and so many other guys on the AM radio, who speak with an "accent".

As one guy said, "Apologetics won't demonstrate the kingdom to an non-believer who is suffering from drug or alcohol addiction. It takes the anointing of God to effectively minister life." The whole point of the "Pentecost experience" is to equip the church. To skip that, in my view, puts most believers in the category of "wait in Jerusalem" (although you don't have to wait anymore, it's available... You just have to learn to receive it.).

Added here... One preacher mentioned how a miracle in their presence would get a lot more people saved than contesting or "defending" your faith in apologetics. It's right. So working toward that being a reality within us and in our midst (place of fellowship) is more effective.

My soul enjoys hearing guys like Ravi sometimes (it's still better than what the world has to offer), but if he or Ray ever got the Holy Spirit baptism, he'd move out of the realm of ministering from the soul into something wonderful.

(I'm not in any way cutting him down, but we know the difference and many of us know the futility of "arguing" for it to someone who isn't hungry.)

 

[Alive_Again]

I discovered from Ravi that we needn't fear anything that we pick up as if the book is demond possessed. It is merely an item that needs to be understood in the light of its history, founder, inventor, etc.

Just a few more comments on this, as I believe it is worth sharing. God's capable of anything (as we know), and He can use anything and we can't "pidgeonhole" something (like going to a village where they seek the devil), because IF He's calling you there, He's going to protect you. At the same time, He often doesn't call you to minister to the Hell hole you were drug out of.

Having said that, certain books are cursed and have deceiving spirits right on hand to afflict the "seeker". The Book of Mormon I have noticed is a perfect example of one of these. I say this because it's a gift that operates sometimes. I immediately pick up on the oppression. It's a spirit that is waiting to give you "the witness" that will "validate" its truth. You feel a certain way and then when you hear about "the burning bosom", you're "convinced" it is a supernatural book (IT IS).

Some people never have any clue as to the properties some books, DVDs, etc. carry on them. Just as the anointing can be imparted into objects, spring forth from a spiritual birthing, etc.), the enemy does the same thing.

Many Spirit filled believers are not in any way tuned in to these things and begin to read these defiled teachings, and they pick up a blight! You're freaky if you mention it, and if it's a "non-Charismatic" believer, they think you're crazy!

In the course of your walk in this life, you may have been allowed to have read some of that stuff (eventually getting oppressed and not making the connection), and you can relate from that knowledge --- compared to the truth. I believe He'll use anything submitted to Him. It's all for a purpose if He allows it.

At the same time, just because you don't get jumped on the minute you open a door, doesn't mean opening that door wasn't dangerous. They don't always come to collect right away. Sometimes they do. Just because your first "trip" wasn't a crushing, close call with the end of your life, doesn't mean the next one won't be. Your first dalliance with pain killers or cocaine won't always be a slavery inducing experience. --- But it might!

I discovered from Ravi that we needn't fear anything that we pick up as if the book is demond possessed. It is merely an item that needs to be understood in the light of its history, founder, inventor, etc.

So I come back to this. If there's anything to be gleaned from discernment of spirits and when you move in it (as something to be knowledgeable of and to "file away" to present to others in your walk), it's that a book, an object, etc. CAN carry a spiritual property that is oppressive if it's "born" from the enemy's camp.

Everybody moves in different gifts in different ways, and it's up to you to benefit from that (or not). I'm listening to what you people say when God moves (beyond doctrine) and it is often what I benefit most from when I listen to people in "restoration ministry". It teaches us how to overcome (which apologetics usally does not do, but I still like it!).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

What do you think of Greg Boyd.
Would you consider him a theologian?

 

[Alive_Again]

Speaking of apologetics, a psych teacher in a college I was speaking to asked me about what I considered to provide "truth". He said something like "truth is different for different people" as though it might change depending on who heard it or needed it.

It was not a big opening for long discussion and I wasn't prepared in that moment to step up like I should have. Anyway, I mentioned the Word of God and he mentioned evolution. I said something like: "Well you know we've never had a case where something moved up to be a different species." Evolution fails the scientific method on the first try, which is absolutely true and you'd think that would end the discussion. I could "see" that he needed life and his take on things was empty and void.

The problem is, it's a spiritual problem and head knowledge can't break the barrier the enemy puts on someone's understanding. It is true that God can use this and if you're led to give that, go for it.

In my case, I felt like the only thing missing from my "testimony" was a bouncing up and down of the eyebrows for "one-upping" him. It was a hallow victory and didn't minister ANY life whatsoever. It won the argument for me because it was "true", but it wasn't "truth" because it wasn't Spirit ministry under the anointing. I feel that way here on the forum sometimes, you give verses to people who are "trapped" in a certain outlook. They're not ready to receive, but the whole medic kit is presented to them and they scoff at you. (We should have discerned this, but we go for the argument... winning it but not them.)

I have ached over the memory of that encounter and remember how pointless it is without letting the soul winner inside you have access to everything He put in you. It is my (limited) experience that most ministers who stay in the realm of the apologetics do not have the anointing God intends His ministers to have. It's a "lower realm" really.

It's a head knowledge thing and that is what many WOF preachers "take issue with". It's not knocking knowledge of facts, it's trying to minister from it. You can use it, but few get healed or equipped with it.

I basically like it and it does appeal to my intellectual curiousity (which has been a problem at various times). The intellect is supposed to be the slave of the spirit man, not the other way around.

 

[hopeinGod]

I completely disagree with the thought that books are demon possessed. It really is a silly notion to think letters are cursed. Where do we stop with such a notion? Do cereal boxes qualify or the Sunday times?

I also remain convinced the Charismatic Movement, in general, has many more less educated people attending than there are blue collar types. Overall, the majority of Charismatic pastors I've known throughout my Christian life got their start as blue collar workers, not academicians. Ninety percent of the men who lived where I did at the start of my walk worked as construction workers. They were not college students.

From a fellow by the name of Jim B. comes this quote from past Christian Forum threads. I agree with him because I too owned a bookstore for five years:

Are Pentecostal/Charismatics anti-intellectual?

On another forum someone raised a complaint that Pentecostal/Charismatics are anti-intellectual and that there is very little scholarship among P/C’s in general. Most P/C literature has to do with pop-theology (generational curses, territorial demons, spiritual warfare, spiritual gifts, tongues, prophecy, etc.) and hardly any with the more central doctrines of the faith (grace, saving faith, Trinity, sovereignty, and all the “ologies” of systematic theology.

Having owned and managed a Christian bookstore for a dozen years, I tend to agree. My least frequent customers (proportionally) were P/C’s and they seldom ventured beyond the “Charismatic” section of the bookstore.

Do you think this is true? If so, why do you think this is?

I majored in literature and have read tons of classic literature, as well as biographies, histories, mysteries, westerns, and other secular writings. Plus, I have hundreds of scriptures memorized.

 

[Andrea411]

I completely disagree with the thought that books are demon possessed. It really is a silly notion to think letters are cursed. Where do we stop with such a notion? Do cereal boxes qualify or the Sunday times?

I also remain convinced the Charismatic Movement, in general, has many more less educated people attending than there are blue collar types. Overall, the majority of Charismatic pastors I've known throughout my Christian life got their start as blue collar workers, not academicians. Ninety percent of the men who lived where I did at the start of my walk worked as construction workers. They were not college students.

From a fellow by the name of Jim B. comes this quote from past Christian Forum threads. I agree with him because I too owned a bookstore for five years:

Are Pentecostal/Charismatics anti-intellectual?

On another forum someone raised a complaint that Pentecostal/Charismatics are anti-intellectual and that there is very little scholarship among P/C’s in general. Most P/C literature has to do with pop-theology (generational curses, territorial demons, spiritual warfare, spiritual gifts, tongues, prophecy, etc.) and hardly any with the more central doctrines of the faith (grace, saving faith, Trinity, sovereignty, and all the “ologies” of systematic theology.

Having owned and managed a Christian bookstore for a dozen years, I tend to agree. My least frequent customers (proportionally) were P/C’s and they seldom ventured beyond the “Charismatic” section of the bookstore.

Do you think this is true? If so, why do you think this is?

I majored in literature and have read tons of classic literature, as well as biographies, histories, mysteries, westerns, and other secular writings. Plus, I have hundreds of scriptures memorized.

The fact is the Pentecostal churches and charismatic churches are the growing churches. They are growing bc they are reaching out to the lost, disenfranchised and the poor. You won't find a Presbyterian store front church in the middle of the ghetto or a Methodist (or mainline) church meeting in a basement of a Masonic lodge or a movie theatre.
Christians can be real snobs sometimes. Just bc a person doesn't read well or have a college education does not in any way effect their relationship with the Lord. God isn't looking for high IQs, he is after hearts...

You might not choose to associate with these people but the Lord does. Charismatics are becoming the largest group of Christians in the world, mostly in 3rd world countries. I can only imagine the level of education. Do you really think the Lord cares? I suggest you get over yourself.

“We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

 

[Alive_Again]

I completely disagree with the thought that books are demon possessed.

By "possessed" you mean "demonized". That means that it was at least partially birthed from deceiving spirits or seductive spirits. For sure, look at many new age philosophies and your curiosity will allow you to pick up defilement.

I've read stuff about JWs that had stuff in it that was horribly "attached" by darkness. If I go anywhere near Indian stuff, I pick up on that immediately.

I couldn't believe what I sensed at an Indian restaurant. They had these multi-armed creature statuettes.

I'm glad you brought up bookstores. Based on the myriad of junk they possess, they have the most motley blend of darkness than most other places I've seen. Especially used book stores. I guess most people wouldn't buy these days what used to pass off in popularity for truth.

It's not my imagination. Some people only have to open their mouth.

...Pentecostal/Charismatics are anti-intellectual and that there is very little scholarship among P/C’s in general.

It's not "anti-intellectual". But the stuff that is born from the intellect does not really minister. I do love venturing into apologetics, but I know that it's usually a dry endeavor. I have to take it in small bits over time.

Most P/C literature has to do with pop-theology (generational curses, territorial demons, spiritual warfare, spiritual gifts, tongues, prophecy, etc.) and hardly any with the more central doctrines of the faith (grace, saving faith, Trinity, sovereignty, and all the “ologies” of systematic theology.

Anything to do with overcoming is very popular in the charismatic world. I would say that most charismatics I have known (especially WOF) have a ravenous appetite for the Word. I've collected a stack of books with pretty covers over the years that had very interesting subject titles. Some from very reputable authors in the evangelical world. Some of them I've read maybe 2 pages from!

Some people surprise me who are supposedly Spirit filled. They mention certain ministers I've never detected an anointing in. I don't make an issue out of it, but it's hard to understand the attraction.

Having owned and managed a Christian bookstore for a dozen years, I tend to agree. My least frequent customers (proportionally) were P/C’s and they seldom ventured beyond the “Charismatic” section of the bookstore.

Interesting! Yes, it is slim pickins outside of the Spirit filled section (which I love). They minister from the anointing! I will say that Christian bookstores have an "atmosphere". I know angels appear in them and lead people to books. Some days if I'm down, I'll pop in there because I often get a lift.

Some days, I'm only more aware that I'm dragging stuff around I picked up from the world. The contrast is that apparent.

I love history and have really taken to church history the last six months. Some of very famous "theologians" are VERY DRY. I won't name names, but the Spirit filled thing became more limited.

I agree with Derek Prince when he says that certain symbols or objects give place to the enemy. They are cursed. They are what the NIV calls "dedicated" and if you own them, you're leaving a door open to the enemy.

In Acts they gathered a huge supply of "Dark Arts" stuff and burned it. The Word grew and multiplied. Take it if you can, but your life will improve dramatically if you begin to discern where these points of entry are.

 

[PersephonesTear]

So there is kind of a lot to respond to here, and I don't want to pile on more gunk that people have to wade through to read... But I'm going to anyways.

First off, this -

Some people never have any clue as to the properties some books, DVDs, etc. carry on them. Just as the anointing can be imparted into objects, spring forth from a spiritual birthing, etc.), the enemy does the same thing.

THIS is the sort of attitude that leads people to accuse Charismatics and WoF folks of anti-intellectualism. Where is the faith here, being afraid to read certain things because you might pick up a "spirit"? God Himself created language, and God Himself created thought. There is no arrangement of letters on this earth that can afflict us with an evil spirit in and of themselves. And there is no reason that any believer in the Word should fear that ideas or philosophies will "infect" us with an unclean spirit. One walks with the Spirit of God in one, or one doesn't. If one does, then one will celebrate Truth from all its sources, knowing that Truth comes from God - even the truths that are found in unlikely places.

Or are you suggesting that people sit at printing shops and cast curses over each separate book that rolls off the production line before it gets shipped to a book store?

I also remain convinced the Charismatic Movement, in general, has many more less educated people attending than there are blue collar types. Overall, the majority of Charismatic pastors I've known throughout my Christian life got their start as blue collar workers, not academicians. Ninety percent of the men who lived where I did at the start of my walk worked as construction workers. They were not college students.

Hmm. I'm not sure how accurate that is. It may be a regional thing. I think it is more likely that there is a variety of educational levels within the Charismatic Movement, from high school drop-outs up through graduate levels of education. Certain regions of the country tend to have lower education levels than others, so of course the people who make up their churches also come from the same less-educated population. But in areas where education is proportionally higher, I suspect there will also be a larger number of educated Charismatics.

Regardless of that, however, I DO personally find it alarming when pastors are not educated. A person who has made it his profession to be a pastor is not a layperson or a lay-preacher. We don't commission untrained individuals to be police officers, or expect mailmen to teach high school math. You can find policemen, mailmen, and math teachers in the same church all together, and no one should consider them "uneducated." However, that does not mean they have the training or knowledge to get up behind a pulpit and deliver a sermon that is Scripturally sound - or that anyone ought to consider them experts in a field that is different from their own.

At the very least, a pastor needs some basic knowledge on hermeneutics and on the original languages of the scriptures. Not everyone can go to college or to seminary, and many do the best they can with what they have. But we live in the age of the internet, so information and knowledge is freely available for those who wish to study on their own. If someone thinks that God has called him to be a pastor, then that person ought to put the effort in to learn his trade.

Christians can be real snobs sometimes. Just bc a person doesn't read well or have a college education does not in any way effect their relationship with the Lord. God isn't looking for high IQs, he is after hearts...

Yup, Christians certainly can be snobs; and that is a real problem that needs to stop. And yup, God is absolutely after hearts. I agree.

But that doesn't mean that we should scorn education or discourage the development of good reasoning skills among the body of Christ - particularly if there is a lack in that area. There are so many people out there who desperately WISH that they could have had a better education, and I don't think it is fruitful or healthy (or true) to suggest that education holds no importance at all. It is important. Not having one does not make one less of a person or block one's access to God, but it does add challenges to life. And when you start to get large groups of people with a low education level, then have someone who sounds good and can rattle off a few Bible verses get up behind a pulpit (which has an implied authority to it, suggesting that the person behind it knows what they are talking about), we end up with a recipe for mass deception and shaky ground.

Then people are being taught things such as that books can infect them with demonic spirits, which further discourages them from seeking out knowledge and education... This has the potential to create a very unhealthy cycle that we should be avoiding as much as we can.

Equipping people to become educated should be a part of the ministry that the church does, in addition to feeding the hungry and reaching out to the suffering and the lost. That was the entire point of Sunday School originally - providing book learning to children who couldn't go to school during the week, because they had to work so that their families wouldn't starve. They were taught how to read and write and add up their sums. There is precedent in our history as Believers for being concerned that our brothers and sisters have a solid educational foundation and helping them to achieve it.

 

[PersephonesTear]

I couldn't believe what I sensed at an Indian restaurant. They had these multi-armed creature statuettes.

Okay, well typically the multi-armed statues are actually idols that depict other gods. The most commonly portrayed this way is Kali, the Destroyer. I don't think that an object that is meant to be the physical face of a false god can in any way compare to a written work of literature. You're talking apples and oranges there.

I also feel like a lot of what you are basing your judgments on are your own personal feelings. You might read some work of theology that seems completely "dry" and devoid of life to you... Then another person picks it up, reads it, and feels the Spirit of God descend upon him as the words speak to a certain area of his life that may not have been of much relevance to you personally. If you fail to detect an "anointing" upon something, that does not mean that there is no anointing there. It may just mean that there is no anointing for you.

So apologetics is not your area of spiritual emphasis, is what I am hearing from you. It doesn't minister to you, or fill you with life. But it DOES touch others, and I don't think it is accurate to write the entire subject off as devoid of faith or anointing. If something does not "ping" with you, that doesn't mean that it isn't Spirit-driven. It takes all types.

 

[Andrea411]

Originally Posted by Andrea411
Christians can be real snobs sometimes. Just bc a person doesn't read well or have a college education does not in any way effect their relationship with the Lord. God isn't looking for high IQs, he is after hearts...

PersephonesTear response [I](wish I knew how to do this right but sorry I don't have time to figure it out this morning)[/I]
Yup, Christians certainly can be snobs; and that is a real problem that needs to stop. And yup, God is absolutely after hearts. I agree.

But that doesn't mean that we should scorn education or discourage the development of good reasoning skills among the body of Christ - particularly if there is a lack in that area. There are so many people out there who desperately WISH that they could have had a better education, and I don't think it is fruitful or healthy (or true) to suggest that education holds no importance at all. It is important. Not having one does not make one less of a person or block one's access to God, but it does add challenges to life. And when you start to get large groups of people with a low education level, then have someone who sounds good and can rattle off a few Bible verses get up behind a pulpit (which has an implied authority to it, suggesting that the person behind it knows what they are talking about), we end up with a recipe for mass deception and shaky ground.

Then people are being taught things such as that books can infect them with demonic spirits, which further discourages them from seeking out knowledge and education... This has the potential to create a very unhealthy cycle that we should be avoiding as much as we can.

Equipping people to become educated should be a part of the ministry that the church does, in addition to feeding the hungry and reaching out to the suffering and the lost. That was the entire point of Sunday School originally - providing book learning to children who couldn't go to school during the week, because they had to work so that their families wouldn't starve. They were taught how to read and write and add up their sums. There is precedent in our history as Believers for being concerned that our brothers and sisters have a solid educational foundation and helping them to achieve it.

I am an advocate of apologetics. I think that Christians of all denominations need to get busy and know what and why they believe. Especially before they send their children off to be under the direct influence of many anti-christian educators.
My point is to not point at charismatics. I love the fact that charismatics 'experience God' and are encouraged to emote... which as someone who believes in counseling and psychology, I find it is a necessary part of any healthy relationship.
That said, we all need to get a good healthy balance. I love apologetics, it explains so much of the what and why of the things the Lord has done. It increases my faith and I enjoy it.
I point people continually to Derek Prince, Rave Zacharias, and a few others who are intelligent and kind.

An argument won't remove your experience but an experience won't convince anyone else....

God bless, andrea