Is apologetics a WOF concern?

[Alive_Again]

I said: Some people never have any clue as to the properties some books, DVDs, etc. carry on them. Just as the anointing can be imparted into objects, spring forth from a spiritual birthing, etc.), the enemy does the same thing.

THIS is the sort of attitude that leads people to accuse Charismatics and WoF folks of anti-intellectualism.

It's really not about being "anti" anything. An observation was made about charismatics primarily sticking to the Spirit filled section of the bookstore. That's a good thing. They're walking in the realm of Christianity they abide in.

There are tons of good testimonies out there from people who's lives were changed by God. Not all are Spirit filled, but they talk about who they were and who they are now. I admire them and they have a rightful place.

I'm a long time lover of Bible study. I like to search it out for all it's worth. I've got most of the plastic coated fold-up chart stuff and facts at your fingertips kind of brochures to educate. I love all of the references on the tabernacles and all sorts of stuff "about Christianity" that kind of fills in the spaces.

I don't knock people for reading apologetics. I have some excellent books. I have to say that much of it is written by people who don't know the Holy Spirit baptism and so everything they do lacks what it might. I'm not being critical of them and each person walks in the light they have.

Pointing out spiritual properties or "doors" or "windows" on physical objects in no way "anti" anything except the very things I'm pointing out. That's the reason I share that. I can't share that with everyone. Not everyone gets it. For the sake of those who do, there's an exhortation. We always have some folks on board who cannot receive all of this. No condemnation.

Where is the faith here, being afraid to read certain things because you might pick up a "spirit"?

It's a supernatural manifestation that God has for each of His children to make you wise in your walk. In the assembly we often major on a gift or two. In your own walk you can see ALL of the gifts manifest. If I pick up a CD and I sense an oppression when I pick it up, I KNOW there is something objectionable in God's sight about it. Its message comes from the wrong spirit. It's not my own "feelings".

Books are certainly that way too. I have noticed for decades the atmosphere in book stores. Often good in Christian books stores and usually a bad mixture in used book stores.

I've been led to go in them and pick up Christian stuff, and I know that in the aisles are things waiting to lure you in a certain direction that is contrary to the gospel.

<..And there is no reason that any believer in the Word should fear that ideas or philosophies will "infect" us with an unclean spirit.

There's the "knowledge of good and evil" thing working. Voices that advocate for it should re-examine and consider that just as God warned His people when they entered into the promised land, that the people in it had ways that would "infect" as you might say His people if they allowed it in their camp. They were told to destroy it. We have the example of the one who held back and it brought a curse on the camp.

We also have the scriptures about burning the objects from the "curious arts". You might look into the word "curious" in its current usage.

Folks wear shirts with symbols or even tattoos that become literally "gates" for the enemy.

...one will celebrate Truth from all its sources, knowing that Truth comes from God - even the truths that are found in unlikely places.

This has a bad sound to it. Yes, Half Price Books has a number of Spirit filled books in them. They also have a lot of New Age, witchcraft, etc. stuff in it and those "sources" are NOT truth. I'm not referring so much to the place as I am certain books, CDs, DVDs, etc. Just as sure as you're sitting, many of these things are defiled and if you enter into them (as Kat Kerr would say), they will enter into you.

...Or are you suggesting that people sit at printing shops and cast curses over each separate book that rolls off the production line before it gets shipped to a book store?

They don't have to. The writers themselves became willing "prophets" for the enemy to minister deceiving and seductive stuff (not just talking about fleshy stuff either).

Don't get me wrong. I love education. I'm a lifelong student. I got my degree fairly recently. If I could have stayed in school, I would have! I would have loved to go to Bible college. In the plan for my life, there were some things that needed to happen, and that was not in the cards.

But like so many people, God sends you school in correspondence. He leads you through the five-fold ministry, those anointed people and He builds that stuff in you. You walk it out "on your own" (seemingly). He builds on it. A strong foundation is laid.

Regardless of that, however, I DO personally find it alarming when pastors are not educated.

We're supposed to study to show ourselves approved. You don't have to enroll in a seminary (seedbed). If you have the hunger, you can let the seed flow from every good source.

You see, "They took note that they had been with Jesus", not that they went to college. They were unlearned men, but they had a wonderful ministry walking closely with the Lord and listening to the Holy Spirit.

I know that anyone can say that and it takes each person to do their thing for that to happen. That is the real education and the greatest need. He can teach you quickly. In fact, to hear some, He can download stuff that would take you years to preach in just a minute.

As one with a teacher's heart, I love seeing it all laid out with the ducks in a row just like you do.

It's the school of the Holy Spirit that you learn the most through. And undeniably, the Spirit filled section has the stuff in it where people sat down and did time alone with God under the anointing. It makes the rest seem somewhat hollow.

Nobody's "knocking" anything. People hear this kind of talk and that's what they hear. They "read between the lines", but in so doing, they completely miss what was said and the value of the difference.

...I don't think that an object that is meant to be the physical face of a false god can in any way compare to a written work of literature. You're talking apples and oranges there.

Yeah, the statue comes right out front and "declares" what it is without hiding in the dark from the physical senses. It's more dangerous to "freely" pick from the wrong tree and eat. Any insight provided by God into that realm to keep you from bondage is worth its weight in gold (if you can receive it).

...theology that seems completely "dry" and devoid of life to you... Then another person picks it up, reads it, and feels the Spirit of God descend upon him as the words speak to a certain area of his life that may not have been of much relevance to you personally. If you fail to detect an "anointing" upon something, that does not mean that there is no anointing there. It may just mean that there is no anointing for you.

I do understand that there are many wonderful ministers of God out there that Spirit filled believers just love. I see people not discern stuff I love as well. I understand that we're all called to certain areas to feed. I don't criticize them. At the same time, a few appear on programs that are typically Spirit filled and they have no anointing (I can tell).

Often believers who are more into intellectual pursuits like these and I marvel because what they offer is not the same as somebody moving in the anointing.

So apologetics is not your area of spiritual emphasis, is what I am hearing from you.

I actually like it, but I understand that many offering the goods are not Spirit filled, so what they present, though intellectually interesting and fascinating, is missing the whole point of the Pentecost feast.

I listened to about 60 hours of stuff on Mormonism. Many of the former Mormons who ministered really got it, but they were not Spirit filled. Their doctrine about prophecy ceasing and all that explained why although you could tell they loved the Lord, and it was good, wasn't as good as somebody anointed who brings it forth.

...I don't think it is accurate to write the entire subject off as devoid of faith or anointing. If something does not "ping" with you, that doesn't mean that it isn't Spirit-driven. It takes all types.

I do consider that I miss out on a lot of good stuff I'm not ready for either. At the same time, I can turn on the radio (on most days) and determine if someone is ministering life. It just happens!

I do take the intellectual thing in perspective, but like the observation about "most Charismatic types" staying in the Spirit filled section of the bookstore for good reason.

As far as the spiritual component (light or darkness), it's vital to develop this because whether you see it or not, it's out there (even at a bookstore near you).

 

[hopeinGod]

Do we not all believe that years have passed since the start of exposure of some real excesses and imbalances within the charismatic movement? The undue emphasis on strange manifestations, along with a regular diet of anti-intellectual rhetoric, slim biblical exposition, and "revelation" on which many who participated in these movements were nurtured HAVE BEEN exposed, have they not? Can we not admit to the existence, even today, of extremism and lack of balance, even one-sided teaching?

Easily documented are judgments made by Rodney Howard Browne at a revival meeting in Anaheim where he warned of spiritual death threats from prophets and leaders connected with the Toronto Blessing, ones that were finally repudiated by Toronto's very leader, John Arnott. Lots of terribly newsworthy events have taken place, have they not?

The charismatic church has been through one of the worst periods in church history, I would say. The list of sins and doctrinal errors would, most likely, place many of the biggest names, certainly, in the lead for the most unbalanced and impure leadership.

And what has been said to be behind all these different and curious movements passing through the charismatic camps? Has there been justification for them through historical fact or other proofs, or was it not determined to be just another one of those kinds of hypes disguised as God initiated when in reality the intent was purely to generate huge amounts of donations?

And who was it that followed these men? And still follow them? The well studied or less studied? The poor and weak? The peoples of underdeveloped regions of all nations? It is my belief that all these movements, of which I was a part at one time in my walk, are attaching themselves to the sick, poor, weak, hungry, undereducated and destitute, not those in ownership of mansions and educational standing. For the rich can pay for their much needed healing and lifestyles. Charismatic conventions, are, for the most part, attended by the blue collar portion of this country, not the wealthy. If they are there, they are standing or sitting on the stage.

 

[Andrea411]

Do we not all believe that years have passed since the start of exposure of some real excesses and imbalances within the charismatic movement? The undue emphasis on strange manifestations, along with a regular diet of anti-intellectual rhetoric, slim biblical exposition, and "revelation" on which many who participated in these movements were nurtured HAVE BEEN exposed, have they not? Can we not admit to the existence, even today, of extremism and lack of balance, even one-sided teaching?

Easily documented are judgments made by Rodney Howard Browne at a revival meeting in Anaheim where he warned of spiritual death threats from prophets and leaders connected with the Toronto Blessing, ones that were finally repudiated by Toronto's very leader, John Arnott. Lots of terribly newsworthy events have taken place, have they not?

The charismatic church has been through one of the worst periods in church history, I would say. The list of sins and doctrinal errors would, most likely, place many of the biggest names, certainly, in the lead for the most unbalanced and impure leadership.

And what has been said to be behind all these different and curious movements passing through the charismatic camps? Has there been justification for them through historical fact or other proofs, or was it not determined to be just another one of those kinds of hypes disguised as God initiated when in reality the intent was purely to generate huge amounts of donations?

And who was it that followed these men? And still follow them? The well studied or less studied? The poor and weak? The peoples of underdeveloped regions of all nations? It is my belief that all these movements, of which I was a part at one time in my walk, are attaching themselves to the sick, poor, weak, hungry, undereducated and destitute, not those in ownership of mansions and educational standing. For the rich can pay for their much needed healing and lifestyles. Charismatic conventions, are, for the most part, attended by the blue collar portion of this country, not the wealthy. If they are there, they are standing or sitting on the stage.

UNBELIEVABLE... we have seen the most enormous move of God through the charismatic movement in history. In the past 100 years the charismatic church has evangelized most every country in the world and the christian gospel is at an all time high. The numbers of people being converted is absolutely unprecedented and all you manage to do is criticize.

YES where something is absolutely happening there will be problems and things to criticize... where all you have is same old - same old... cold church... nothing to criticize.
When ever there has been a revival there were always enough critics to go around. Most of the hindrances to the gospel have historically come from within the organized church who didn't like the way it was done. In clinging to their own self-righteous ways they stand in the way of God.

AS far as this being the worst... you obviously are short on your history. Have you forgotten the bloody wars, forced conversions, murders of Jews, supporting slavery and anti-semitism. Oh how short their memory is, but God help them if someone speaks in tongues more than two or three and it isn't orderly... that upsets all of the uptight church members.

100 million charismatics in China alone...

The charismatic movement-- mainline renewal and independent charismatic-- is now an established part of the than 500,000,000 Christians worldwide who are part of these continualist traditions (Pentecostal, charismatic, and Third Wave). The movement continues to grow rapidly with no sign that the growth is slowing. CT


I think the bias against charismatics blinds people to the truth of this wonderful powerful move of God. Be very careful that you are not one of the ones standing in His way...

 

[Alive_Again]

It is my belief that all these movements, of which I was a part at one time in my walk, are attaching themselves to the sick, poor, weak, hungry, undereducated and destitute, not those in ownership of mansions and educational standing. For the rich can pay for their much needed healing and lifestyles. Charismatic conventions, are, for the most part, attended by the blue collar portion of this country, not the wealthy. If they are there, they are standing or sitting on the stage.

Wow. I've heard of seeing it through "rose colored glasses", but I'm not sure what color that is. I'm not cutting you down, but this and many of your posts have a tint of dejection in them (or utter disdain), seeing very negative perspectives on the church world. It's like an illness festering within you.

Everybody needs work and I'm one of them, but I hate to hear such persistent failure oriented perspectives that seem bereft of actual good news oriented Christianity. Try to let go of that stuff as it affects your spirit.

Why even look upon the controversial and the mistakes of others? Does it not interfere with your race?

There's so much good going on right now. The people you see "attaching" to what seems to be described to be a godless "move" are actually people with needs, the kind that usually are seekers. The rich already have their fill. Regardless of what might be off center in ministers personal lives, many wonderful anointings are present.

Try and lay aside that part that in your view which comes up short. Look upon what is real. Forget about who's in attendance. See people everywhere who are sick and hurting (or worse), dead. God is still there.

There is a general groaning that takes place for more and transformation, but generally speaking, things should be lovely and of good report. Short of that, we should just pray about it and not feel helpless.

There is a real move of God to bring about restoration. It's not fake and it's not hype.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"How does the WOF community view apologists like Ravi Zacharias and Os Guinness?"

The typical approach would be to "Like 'em" when they AGREE with the "Precious eternal truths du jour", and "Flame them" when they disagree. WOF are no different than any other "Special interest THeological Paradigm" in that regard.

Apologetics, after all, only serves to "Prove" the theology of the particular apologist about his paradigm.

WoF, every time they employ Scriptural texts to support their beliefs are practicing "Apologetics" that reinforce their own belifs.

You can prove almost ANYTHING "apologetically".

Simple as that.

 

[Alive_Again]

The typical approach would be to "Like 'em" when they AGREE with the "Precious eternal truths du jour", and "Flame them" when they disagree.

Wow!

It's interesting how walking in truths that get you persecuted from the body are perceived to be "deception", as some kind of mistaken paradigm.

It's supposed to be peace and love and joy. It's hard to believe that people are content to graze where they do when it's negative and demeaning.

WOF is really just putting the Word first (which means endeavoring to hear and obey). It's about walking in principles of faith. It's about yielding and not opposing yourself. It's about learning from the strengths and mistakes of others (in a positive way).

It's not different than anyone else. there's a general misperception about many things WOF, but the real WOF is a higher walk where you're supposed to stay filled and fellowshipping with eagles. Eagles disregard the roadkill. I'm not talking about you. I am saying that pointing to what you perceive as errant is divisive and a mispresentation of what WOF really is.

Why don't we forget the cynicism and keep it positive. What you say has a lot more force when it's born out of peace, love, and joy.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"WOF is really just putting the Word first"

Correction: "WOF is really just putting the WoF Paradigm about the Word first".

IF IT WORKED the way it's supporters/practitioners CLAIM that it does, then there wouldn't be any discussion possible, and the world would beat a path to WoF's door (like they did in Acts 5:15).

But since it Doesn't, and WoF folks don't really live, or walk any differently that any other Christian paradigmatic group, obviously there's nothing in the "Popular version" of the teaching to take all that seriously.

Simple as that.

The Church as a whole experiences miracles of provision, healing, and ministry every day.

 

[Alive_Again]

IF IT WORKED the way it's supporters/practitioners CLAIM that it does, then there wouldn't be any discussion possible, and the world would beat a path to WoF's door (like they did in Acts 5:15).

Here's some good stuff we learned. The more you follow the plan, the more abundant the fruit. The more abundant the fruit, the more others see it. The more of God they see in you, the more the world wants what you have.

Everyone is still learning and being purged. Strangely (in my view), you can know great victories and overcome things, and experience supernatural life, and then the focus is on something that wasn't even an issue (as you saw it). It's all part of the restoration process. It's a battle and an impasse. Different areas of your life you're critical in. It all got that way, way back when. It causes a person to see something negatively. I think we can all relate.

You can always tell by what comes out of a person's mouth (or keyboard).

There are still areas to grow in, be purged by, tested in, etc. It puts a lot in peril to find yourself enduring these types of things. You had it so well, but it's not over yet. So what seems to "not be working" is just the opposite. But being a believer is this refinement process. It's part of the cross and not everyone is willing to run after that. Sometimes you feel like you have to put it down. It takes grace to get back up again.

When you've come forth as pure gold, it's real easy for the world to run after you to see what you've got. But when you're going through it and taking some knocks, making adjustments, enduring tribulations, etc., it takes faith to go forward and not look at the ledge your standing on high above the valley you've been living in.

Like all believers, sometimes you question it all, but the Word is always the Word. If you do it, it works.

Sure, mistakes are made, etc., but the truth will always be the truth. It doesn't vary. The stuff that is proclaimed as gospel truth (received by the anointing) is still true when all Hell breaks loose around you. When loved ones are hit in the crossfire, when the things that can be shaken are shaken. It doesn't prove that it doesn't work. Just the opposite.

It's a temptation to think that it doesn't work, but you know Who you heard. You have to make the choice to forget the mistakes and those who failed and still believe. You really want all of your life to be built on a sure foundation.

But since it Doesn't, and WoF folks don't really live, or walk any differently that any other Christian paradigmatic group, obviously there's nothing in the "Popular version" of the teaching to take all that seriously.

These are the kind of voices you have to (hate to say it) disregard. The trial of your faith... You can't say it doesn't work. You know it works. You just have to make sure you follow through. Some folks really are good evangelists for the bad news.

People take pots shots at believers with accusations and explanations of why the Word of faith we preach "doesn't work". It always works. But the problem often lies within ourselves. There's a war going on too and you have to insulate yourself from evil reports.

There's a cloud of witnesses cheering us on. Alongside that are witnesses to call you into question, but are you going to join them and become...

"...any other Christian paradigmatic group, obviously there's nothing in the "Popular version" of the teaching to take all that seriously.

There are some on the forum I can't even remember the last time I heard anything edifying out of. Something that I wanted to follow. Sad to say, but if I came into fellowship with a new believer, I certainly wouldn't take them here. I consider this more of a mission field than a place of fellowship.

I'm grateful there is a WOF.

Faith works by love, so if in the battle, things turn out a little turvy sometimes, it isn't because your faith is misplaced. It's often the "working by love" part that gets derailed.

The faith thing always works when it works by love. Declaring the Word over your life ALWAYS makes a difference. Setting a watch over your lips is always vital. Having a lifestyle of worship and prayer always overcomes. We're supposed to have the Blood AND the word of your testimony, with a yielded life.

Doing what God told Joshua 1:8 to do ALWAYS works. If there are problems, it isn't because of that. Striving for the things that bring faith are always going to be helpful to overcome. The problem typically is not the doctrine, it's going forward through the process. There's a lot on the line. You may not perceive what takes place in this camp, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Although doctrine is being refined, the so-called "WOF" thing is the most exciting revelation of God's Word and Spirit every seen on this planet since the days of the Jesus and the foundational apostles. We have more revelation on the Word than has ever been. (But it has to be walked out.) There's more to come to bring it all together.

All of this is supposed to be "regular Christianity", but somehow some believers make it into this "alternative" thing, but it's all clearly in the Word.

I will say that this last year or so has been... I'm at a loss for words.. trying. People's testimonies are still being forged and it's going on all over the place. Good things lie ahead if we can just make it through.

The whole negativity thing though isn't helping and it certainly isn't edifying or ministering grace. You'll be happier to shed those clothes.

 

[PersephonesTear]

Wow!

It's interesting how walking in truths that get you persecuted from the body are perceived to be "deception", as some kind of mistaken paradigm.

The grammar here is awkward, so I am not totally sure that you meant what you seem to have meant... But to be clear, being told that your paradigm is off is NOT persecution. Being told that WoF doctrine is in error, and having that statement elaborated upon is NOT persecution.

And you are also telling others that their paradigms are off, so I think it would be appropriate to say - don't dish out what you can't take.

This IS a debate section. Pointing out errors, why they are errors, and differences of opinion is part of debate. That isn't persecution or a personal attack.

It's not different than anyone else. there's a general misperception about many things WOF, but the real WOF is a higher walk where you're supposed to stay filled and fellowshipping with eagles. Eagles disregard the roadkill. I'm not talking about you. I am saying that pointing to what you perceive as errant is divisive and a mispresentation of what WOF really is.

Why don't we forget the cynicism and keep it positive. What you say has a lot more force when it's born out of peace, love, and joy.

Bold added by me - If you contend that WoF is a higher walk, then you are by default telling the rest of us that we have a lower walk. Aside from the fact that this is just not true, it is condescending. You keep talking about how WoF is "misrepresented" and "misunderstood." Well, I am trying to point out an example of why this happens. It is because people who claim to be WoF - like you, right here, just now - say things that are condescending to other believes, such as what I bolded there for you.

(Also, this is neither here nor there in regard to your point, but... Eagles actually do eat roadkill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn0Qono8Uiw)

 

[Andrea411]

Wow!

It's interesting how walking in truths that get you persecuted from the body are perceived to be "deception", as some kind of mistaken paradigm.

The grammar here is awkward, so I am not totally sure that you meant what you seem to have meant... But to be clear, being told that your paradigm is off is NOT persecution. Being told that WoF doctrine is in error, and having that statement elaborated upon is NOT persecution.

And you are also telling others that their paradigms are off, so I think it would be appropriate to say - don't dish out what you can't take.

This IS a debate section. Pointing out errors, why they are errors, and differences of opinion is part of debate. That isn't persecution or a personal attack.

Bold added by me - If you contend that WoF is a higher walk, then you are by default telling the rest of us that we have a lower walk. Aside from the fact that this is just not true, it is condescending. You keep talking about how WoF is "misrepresented" and "misunderstood." Well, I am trying to point out an example of why this happens. It is because people who claim to be WoF - like you, right here, just now - say things that are condescending to other believes, such as what I bolded there for you.

(Also, this is neither here nor there in regard to your point, but... Eagles actually do eat roadkill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn0Qono8Uiw)

That must be one sick eagle or very fresh roadkill.... LOL just saying...

don't we all speak of a higher walk when we talk about adhering to the scriptures as opposed to those we see as not 'really' following Christ. Or we label 'nominal' Christians. We all know there is a difference.
As Christians we are called to humility, especially amongst unbelievers. It seems to be far more difficult with other believers.
The ugliest arguments are Catholics vs non-RCC or Arminians vs Calvinists.

So to think it's a higher walk is bc we are choosing the walk we believe to be the most scriptural, hopefully. I don't feel judgmental toward non-charismatic folks until they start mocking the gifts, then I find I actually do think they are wrong and possibly settling for less of that "higher walk". And of course they usually think we're drinking the kook-aid.

As someone who believes in WoF principles and yet has seen so much corruption of those principles. It is true that there is a higher walk in WoF. There are people who use manipulation and there are people who encourage faith. There are those that ask you to suspend thinking and those that teach scripture. I would say Wommack and Copeland teach constantly. I see a big difference in them, maybe the manipulation factor.
I would encourage everyone to try WoF, to listen to some good teaching. Do not send money in exchange for blessings from God. Send your prayers, give praise to God, do deeds for others as a sacrifice unto the Lord. Give where your heart calls you to give but do not allow yourself to be manipulated or feel manipulated.
Especially those who are poor and cannot afford financial giving, give what you have as unto the Lord. If bedridden, give prayer and praise to Our Lord. It is your sacrifice of praise, your heart for Him that He desires. If you can afford monetary give where you receive or where the Lord lays it on your heart to give, but give prayerfully.
We have a poor friend, we pick up extra days at work and pay him to do what we would normally do at home for ourselves. It is an exchange and he does not have to feel like a charity case yet he can meet his bills.
There are many ways to give that God recognizes besides giving dollars to a televangelist.
God bless, andrea

 

[hopeinGod]

I think the bias against charismatics blinds people to the truth of this wonderful powerful move of God. Be very careful that you are not one of the ones standing in His way...

The whole notion of a church being a building is as unscriptural as the WOF doctrines themselves. Can you not see the pattern within the Bible set up for us to follow that does not, in any way, include any of the trappings we see today within all of the nondenoms and denoms? Nothng we've been doing is Scriptural.

We're supposed to be meeting in small groups, not in huge assemblies where we end up making billionaires of the one man shows. We are to be tossing aside those things that have caused harm to the body, including extremist views and interpretations, giving to get, and so much more.

Do you read Frank Viola's books? Maybe it's time. Let's tell these big named nobodies to take a hike, leave us alone, okay? We don't need them. For it is time the body of Christ arises out of those folding metal chairs and pews and becomes who they are called to be, not pew warmers, not viewers who sit and sit and sit and sit some more. Our vision has been lost for ourselves and handed over to the money grubbers.

And sure, folks are coming to know the Lord and joining churches, but once their eyes are opened, as so many have been over the past few decades who were a part of these WOF camps, then they too will find themselves disillussioned for many years.

 

[Truthfrees]

The whole notion of a church being a building is as unscriptural as the WOF doctrines themselves. Can you not see the pattern within the Bible set up for us to follow that does not, in any way, include any of the trappings we see today within all of the nondenoms and denoms? Nothng we've been doing is Scriptural.

We're supposed to be meeting in small groups, not in huge assemblies where we end up making billionaires of the one man shows. We are to be tossing aside those things that have caused harm to the body, including extremist views and interpretations, giving to get, and so much more.

Do you read Frank Viola's books? Maybe it's time. Let's tell these big named nobodies to take a hike, leave us alone, okay? We don't need them. For it is time the body of Christ arises out of those folding metal chairs and pews and becomes who they are called to be, not pew warmers, not viewers who sit and sit and sit and sit some more. Our vision has been lost for ourselves and handed over to the money grubbers.

And sure, folks are coming to know the Lord and joining churches, but once their eyes are opened, as so many have been over the past few decades who were a part of these WOF camps, then they too will find themselves disillussioned for many years.

DISILLUSIONED
Misunderstanding wof teaching is usually at the core of disillusioned people.

My wof Pastor has helped me straighten out my beliefs and misunderstandings when I've been stuck.

A few times it looked like the LORD'S words weren't working for me, but every time so far it was my misunderstanding or misapplication.

A good Pastor is hard to find.

I've grown through 5 denominations before becoming wof.

I used to think the problems I encountered before wof were the denominations' fault, but now, because of your story, I realize the problems I had with other denominations may have been more because of the Pastors.

DOES SIZE MATTER?
The LORD had gatherings of 4000-5000 men, plus women and children. That would make a total of at least 12,000 people. (Matthew 14:21, Matthew 15:38)

3000 were saved in the Apostles meetings in one day. How many people were actually present for so many to get saved? (Acts 2:41)

The LORD can be in the midst of a group of 2 or 3 (Matthew 18:20), or a group of 3, 5, 12 thousand.

IOW, a small home gathering, a large multi-thousand gathering, or anything in between is fine with the LORD.

As long as we gather in the name of the LORD, HE'S there. (Matthew 18:20)

Mariam and Aaron opposed a big name nobody and that didn't turn out so well for Miriam. (Numbers 12:1-12)

The LORD has a mission for each of us. IF we get busy with HIS mission for us, we won't have time to be so concerned about what others are doing. (John 21:20-22)

 

[Andrea411]

The whole notion of a church being a building is as unscriptural as the WOF doctrines themselves. Can you not see the pattern within the Bible set up for us to follow that does not, in any way, include any of the trappings we see today within all of the nondenoms and denoms? Nothng we've been doing is Scriptural.

We're supposed to be meeting in small groups, not in huge assemblies where we end up making billionaires of the one man shows. We are to be tossing aside those things that have caused harm to the body, including extremist views and interpretations, giving to get, and so much more.

Do you read Frank Viola's books? Maybe it's time. Let's tell these big named nobodies to take a hike, leave us alone, okay? We don't need them. For it is time the body of Christ arises out of those folding metal chairs and pews and becomes who they are called to be, not pew warmers, not viewers who sit and sit and sit and sit some more. Our vision has been lost for ourselves and handed over to the money grubbers.

And sure, folks are coming to know the Lord and joining churches, but once their eyes are opened, as so many have been over the past few decades who were a part of these WOF camps, then they too will find themselves disillussioned for many years.

When I speak of the "church"I am referring to the invisible church held together by Jesus Christ as Head and by the Holy Spirit. The visible church is organized religion. It serves its purpose and has done considerable good throughout history. There are many Christians within these buildings/denominations or organized groups of people with similar interpretations of scripture.
I like F.Viola and have read his books. Have you taken a good hard look at the problems of house churches? Yes, the original churches were held in homes, much like the church in China today bc of the persecution. When the persecution ends then the natural inclination is for people to get a place to meet regularly. IDK many homes that can accommodate 50-100 people at one time so if we had that many coming, we'd probably figures out it would be a good idea to rent a building. Then some people would argue over what the scriptures mean, break off and go to another building... and so on and so on... and after a few hundred years of this you'd find that the gospel was being spread all over the world as different groups argue and break away. Funny how the Lord uses our weaknesses as His strengths.
In our arguing we separate and then in our desire to grow we share the gospel... and we grow enough to bring in new ideas and then we separate again.
The early church was not dealing with 6 billion peoples... I like house churches and I see where organized denominations have done wonders in sharing the gospel and why there have been splits in the churches and always will be... no surprise we're human.

God bless, andrea

 

[Alive_Again]

...But to be clear, being told that your paradigm is off is NOT persecution.

IF IT WORKED the way it's supporters/practitioners CLAIM that it does, then there wouldn't be any discussion possible, and the world would beat a path to WoF's door (like they did in Acts 5:15).

But since it Doesn't, and WoF folks don't really live, or walk any differently that any other Christian paradigmatic group, obviously there's nothing in the "Popular version" of the teaching to take all that seriously.

Ever wonder what "it" is?

...Being told that WoF doctrine is in error, and having that statement elaborated upon is NOT persecution.

It in no way demonstrated how anything was "off". It's just another general put down. It solves nothing.

And you are also telling others that their paradigms are off, so I think it would be appropriate to say - don't dish out what you can't take.

This IS a debate section. Pointing out errors, why they are errors, and differences of opinion is part of debate. That isn't persecution or a personal attack.

The "it" are the higher ways of the Word. It's not a "paradigm", and it applies to all believers (whether they get it or not). When the cut downs come forth, rest assured it's persecution. It's that way all over the world. And most of the church does not get it.

The thing is, if we actually compared doctrines those who have honest questions about WOF would find the answers. But you have to "run the gauntlet" of mudslinging by believers along the way.

I refuse to sink into the standard of behavior of base arguments. This is supposed to be an uplifting presentation of scripture.

It's supposed to actually help someone, not just vainly attempt to win some kind of argument. The thing is, half of the people here (I would surmise) have no intention of wanting to learn something; to be reminded of something they received when they attended WOF meetings. Instead, they're closed spirits. It's often an unworthy exchange.

I'm sorry to say, the truth is always the truth and it is always a higher walk. It's always conditional on someone doing it. It's not me doing it and you not doing it. We're talking about the revelation, not inflating or deflating anyone. But many doctrines are not adhered to, and some are just flat rejected that have been proven by the fruits.

The pattern is, "I did it for a while. Ran after it hungrily (got ministered to). (Then I heard the enemy and saw what he was doing.) The Word was stolen from me and I want to tell everyone not to make the same mistake."

So we examine the fruits and more often than not it is the bad news! So when someone says something about, it's now about not handling the criticism?

If you contend that WoF is a higher walk, then you are by default telling the rest of us that we have a lower walk.

Sorry to say. I hear the same kind of stuff from people who say they are
Spirit filled and aren't. It's always a pride thing, etc. But the reality is, there are some things described as Word of Faith that have been proven by the anointing to be right on. When others label these revelations as some kind of deception du jour, it is obvious somebody didn't get the revelation (or they had it stolen from them). That's what it boils down to.

You've got a message that says to walk it in newness of life, you have to stayed filled. You have to keep the Word in your mouth and not depart. You cannot be froward in your behavior. The criticism WOF receives is that this is somehow a "works oriented" theology. That it's "me oriented." Do this and that thing that "produces no fruit". Well I'm here to tell you that it does.

I make the same mistakes others do (to be sure). But we're not talking about me or even you. We're supposed to be talking about doctrine. When the fruits minister such bad news, don't you want to have that kind of programming interrupted? Is it not a slight even on the church?

Aside from the fact that this is just not true, it is condescending.

Sorry chief. There are certain revelation you either get or not get. You choose which side of that to abide in, not me. I didn't address you specifically in response to the doctrines I'm referring to.

I'd much rather get back to the good news version of this thread and when things go south, say, "Hey, let's stop the bad news!" Get back to what is good.

 

[Alive_Again]

It's funny because (getting back to the original post), the general perception seems to point to congregations like WOF not being very studious. I see it just the opposite. I see WOF people feed on the Word like no other.

But their IS a difference between ministering in the two feasts (Atonement and Pentecost). That's what this comes down to in this thread. And as interesting as some books and speakers are about apologetics (many of them do not know Pentecost), you'll find most of the WOF (or even charismatics) feed primarily on Spirit filled books.

It's harder to read books at length that aren't produced under the Pentecost anointing. It's no cut down to people who aren't Spirit filled, but the fact remains (and it seems condescending to those who wander in here claiming to be Spirit filled), that there's a difference.

If you walk primarily in the soul realm, I have noticed that these believers get real comfortable with non-Spirit filled ministers. It's a marvel to me because it doens't really compare.

It's not meant to be a cut down, but they do not have the revelation on this. As Andrea said about non-Spirit filled taking shots at Spirit filled; they say things like non-WOF people often say to WOF folks. A lot of prodding and accusations of ineffectiveness. It's a persecution, not an attack on your paradigm.

 

[hopeinGod]

I have been told by more than one WOF adherent that if I have not experienced all the manifestations of their meetings, given the name today of "impartations," then I am not in the present move of God and am in disobedience.

These men were "pastors" and long time one-sided WOFers. And how one sided they can be! Believing anything "bad" comes from the devil only, and not having any real study in them regarding judgment. And yes, God does send a great deal more our way than just blessings. Read the Bible and see what those other things are. You'll be astonished.

I am not a "little god" and neither can I force God to do anything for me that is written in Scripture as having happened. Methodologies are not relationship. Relationship is relationship, which does often mean suffering in all its many forms.

 

[K2K]

I have been told by more than one WOF adherent that if I have not experienced all the manifestations of their meetings, given the name today of "impartations," then I am not in the present move of God and am in disobedience.

These men were "pastors" and long time one-sided WOFers. And how one sided they can be! Believing anything "bad" comes from the devil only, and not having any real study in them regarding judgment. And yes, God does send a great deal more our way than just blessings. Read the Bible and see what those other things are. You'll be astonished.

I am not a "little god" and neither can I force God to do anything for me that is written in Scripture as having happened. Methodologies are not relationship. Relationship is relationship, which does often mean suffering in all its many forms.

I find this very sad!!

It is not about the moves of the Spirit, it is about the message of the Spirit!! The moves are intended to draw you the message, and so often we stop short of where the Spirit is trying to get us to.

Let me explain.

Elijah from the mountain of God was the great wind, the fire and the earthquake. The moves of God show up like that. They are important, because the great wind, the fire, the earthquake were breaking off pieces, and people of need pieces broken of them before they can really get to know the Lord.

Yet God was not in the great wind, the fire, or the earthquake, He was in that still small voice!! The Spirit of God is trying to hook you up with that still small voice!! That is why the Spirit speaks but only as He hears and not on His initiative!

Look, I work in a prayer ministery where people come to for help from God. I release and operate in the moves of God: the fire, the great wind, the earthquake, but all that is done so that they will come to hear that still small voice of the Lord!!!

Through Moses God told His people that if they would harken to His voice He would heal the land. The problem was that when He went to talk to them they saw the fire on the mountian and His voice came across like thunder. So His people said, "do not let God speak to us." It was still God still small voice speaking to them, but because it was God and in their heart they didn't want to have to follow God, His voice came across as thunder to them.

So the Spirit of God comes like fire, like a great wind, like an earthquake, but that is so that you might fear God and turn to Him. Yet if in our hearts we don't want to listen to Him, the fire on the mountain is not going to give us enough fear of God and we are still going to say, "Let God not speak to us." The moves of God, for all there fire, earthquakes, and might wind, can still just result in a bunch of people not willing to enter into a personal relationship with Him.

Faith comes from hearing, and the main point is a relationship like hopeinGod wrote!!!

I move in the gifts and love the moves of God; still it is not about the moves of God but about knowing God via His still small voice. God is in the little wind, not the fire, earthquake, and great wind!!

So while I would encourage people to move in the gifts of God (there is incredible value in them), it is not the moves, the gifts, the miracles, but God is in the still small voice. It is indeed about the relationship, and we should not say otherwise. Sometimes I have seen WOF people seeming to say otherwise; though I doubt they usually realize what they are doing.

And as for others, it is still written to desire the gifts!! So if we are not want the gifts and the moves of God, what then. How good is our relationship, if God tells us to desire the gifts and we don't want them, and if God is doing incredible things and we don't want to be around Him at that time.

It's about the relationship, that is for sure. Never-the-less, I see people have things broken off them, and see miracles when God is moving over the mountain like a mighty wind, an earthquake, and a fire. So I don't understand why I wouldn't like to be part of that also?

 

[Truthfrees]

I have been told by more than one WOF adherent that if I have not experienced all the manifestations of their meetings, given the name today of "impartations," then I am not in the present move of God and am in disobedience.

Could you clarify what manifestations or impartations you were told you needed to experience?

Offended people say a lot of things to each other that are unscriptural. So do thoughtless people. We each need to endeavor to NOT be led by the flesh so that what we say and do is truly led by the LORD.

1. IF you know something is of the LORD and reject it, that IS disobedience.

2. IF you're not sure something is of the LORD, you're not disobedient to stand back until you clarify with the LORD what is a scriptural manifestation.

3. IF you speak against something you think is NOT from the LORD, you risk speaking against something that possibly IS from the LORD. That IS serious.

"And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God." - Acts 5:38-39

Historically, this kind of opposition to Pentecostals and Charismatics resulted in judgement falling on the heads of some people.

In present day, I've seen this happen to those who oppose wof, or any of the LORD'S people. We're all the body of CHRIST, and one day, as the LORD finishes the work HE started in us, we'll be a lot more unified in our faith.

IMO, it's just better not to speak against people, but to pray and ask the LORD to deal with situations. If something is wrong, the LORD is the best one to deal with it anyway. What can we do by speaking against something, other than possibly bring judgement down on our own heads?

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death." - 1 John 5:16

4. If there's something wrong with someone's doctrines, discuss the doctrines with them, with FULL confidence that the LORD will intervene with HIS truth through the discussion, but don't fight, because that makes things worse. (Titus 3:9, 2 Timothy 2:23)

 

[Truthfrees]

These men were "pastors" and long time one-sided WOFers. And how one sided they can be! Believing anything "bad" comes from the devil only, and not having any real study in them regarding judgment. And yes, God does send a great deal more our way than just blessings. Read the Bible and see what those other things are. You'll be astonished.

1. Righteous Judgement comes from the LORD.

2. Unrighteous attacks come from the devil.

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." - John 10:10

What kind of bad things do you believe are from the LORD?

How do you know something is a righteous judgement or the enemy attacking?

Methodologies are not relationship. Relationship is relationship.

Methodologies have their purpose (Joshua 1:8), but they do NOT qualify as a relationship.

 

[Truthfrees]

I am not a "little god"

"I said, &#8220;You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High." - Psalm 82:6, John 10:34

The LORD HIMSELF says you're a god if you're a child of the MOST HIGH. Ask the LORD what HE means by that. Why did HE say that about us?

and neither can I force God to do anything for me that is written in Scripture as having happened.

We don't make the LORD do anything. We make circumstances obey the LORD'S words when we say the LORD'S words because HIS angels make HIS words come to pass.

HIS words can be spoken from HIS mouth or our mouth, or even written (Revelation 2 & 3), and the angels will do them because they're the LORD'S words.

"Bless Jehovah, ye his angels, mighty in strength, that execute his word, hearkening unto the voice of his word." - Psalm 103:20 DARBY

"Bless the Lord, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!" - NASB

"Praise the Lord, you angels, you mighty ones who carry out his plans, listening for each of his commands." - NLT

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, obedient to his spoken word." - NRSV

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!" - RSV

"Adore Him! Give Him praise, you heavenly messengers, you powerful creatures who listen to and act on His every word." - VOICE

"Praise Yahweh, you angels of his, who are mighty in strength, who fulfill his word, obeying the voice of his word." - WEB

I love the various translations of this verse. They show how the angels hear the voice of the LORD'S words and do it.

The LORD tells us to meditate HIS words and speak HIS words. (Joshua 1:8, John 12:49-50)

Is that because the angels can only do the LORD'S words?