is any sin greater than another?

[meg324]

I don't know how any of you will feel about this topic, but here goes...
My brother and I were talking about sin. I said that no sin is greater than any other sin - except blaspheming God or denying him. I know that we are ALL sinners, and we are saved by Grace - not through works alone.
I mentioned that I think anyone living in sin can still be a christian - they are just unrepentant. A practicing homosexual can be a christian - he/she is just living in sin. It is no greater a sin than an alcoholic or a murderer or a child molestor. No greater than an adulterer or a liar or anyone else. We are all the same when it comes to sin. Sure, as a Christian, or even as a person, a sin of a sexual or "moral" nature (as opposed to ethical) may SEEM more "wrong" but is it more wrong than a wife beater or even someone who cheats on their taxes?
I say no. Sin is sin is sin. It's all the same. It's all wrong no matter how you look at it. He said that a practicing homosexual is not a Christian. Can not BE a christian until they repent.
My analogy is this... a man is married and is a Christian. He has an affair for three years, and then the affair ends. By his definition, that man was not a Christian during those three years. Although he says you are saved through Grace and it is a gift that cannot be returned (which I also believe). I told him that if someone commits adultery, how is that different. He says they strayed from Faith. WEll, how is it any different for a gay person to have strayed?
Gosh, that may seem rambling.
Basically, is any one sin greater than another?
Could you help me find a scriptural reference?
If one sin is greater than another, where is that in the Bible?

I believe that we are ALL sinners and no matter what the sin, it isn't greater than another. THe criteria for being a Christian is not how much or what type of sin you have but Grace through Faith. All sin is wrong. I could be living in sin and nobody would know, so how is it wrong for someone to openly live in sin MORE wrong than I am?

and on a side note, I do NOT think that openly gay clergy should be allowed in the ministry. You would not applaud a murderer for his sin and put a murderer in charge influencing your child, and since I believe all sin is the same, I wouldn't put a homosexual minister in front of my congregation b/c of that influence. I do not believe that we should welcome sin with open arms, basically.

Thanks for your input!

 

[bleechers]

In short... yes and no.

Just a fer'instance:

John 19
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

As to the question in regard to the church, it probably requires an explanation of the doctrine of the new nature (new creation in Christ) that may not fit here in the minds of some.

 

[meg324]

ok, I know that the KJV isn't copyrighted so you probably can't post any other version here... BUT... can you paraphrase that verse for me? LOL
ye olde english baffles me when it comes to the Bible. I can read shakespeare and get the idea, but I may miss a little of it... I do NOT want to miss any little bit int he Bible!!

thanks

 

[bleechers]

Sure... the context is Jesus before Pilate. Although Pilate was about to condemn an innocent man to death, it was the nation (represented by the Pharisees) that had rejected not only an innocent man, but also her King and her Savior and her God.

I just used that verse to illustrate that God can and does make distinctions when it comes to sin. Jesus also made this point when he said that the Pharisees' sin was worse because they said that they "saw" whereas if they had admitted blindness, their sin would not have been great... etc...

OTOH - There is no "legal" difference when it comes to sin. To break the law in any point, one is guilty of beaking all the law (for those under the law -Jas 2:10; Gal 2-3).

As for the KJV, the fault is not in the English, but in my selection. I think with more context, you'd have understood it.

 

[d0c markus]

A practicing homosexual can be a christian - he/she is just living in sin. It is no greater a sin than an alcoholic or a murderer or a child molestor. No greater than an adulterer or a liar or anyone else. We are all the same when it comes to sin. Sure, as a Christian, or even as a person, a sin of a sexual or "moral" nature (as opposed to ethical) may SEEM more "wrong" but is it more wrong than a wife beater or even someone who cheats on their taxes?



Thanks for your input!

firstly,

1 Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1JN 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

you can continue to live in any sin you like! But rest assured you will not be consigned to the Kingdom of heaven.

One of my favorite sayings is that "I am a saint who occasionally sins." Keyword being occasional, and if your a true Christian it is unbliblical to call yourself a sinner - hence being a new creation and the fact that Paul commonly refers to Christians as saints.
____________________

secondly IF A CATHOLIC IS READING this perhaps they can point us to a passage that they would say that one sin is greater as they have the venial sin/mortal sin doctrine. I do not know 1 off hand and dont feel like researching it tonight. If they or someone posts the verses then we can dissect it.

Good Day

 

[Heatherondo]

I am in complete agreement with you Meg 324, it is how i understand the scriptures.

I think men, and their own legalistic tendencies are teh ones to decide some are worse than others

I have personally known two men who had been practicing homosexuals before accepting Jesus as their personal savior who struggled with it.

Once you have truly accepted jesus you are a Christian, you are saved and you name is written in the book of life.

Now, if we took the above verse (1 Jn 3:6 ) literally as a stand alone verse without studying it in contest and the original meaning, not a single one of us would see the kingdom of God, because we are ALL flawed sinners and physically incapable of not sinning 100% (and anyone who says they have not sinned since recieving Jesus is fooling himself), i just recently studied this section of scripture, and what it is meaning, as i understand it, is when someone gets "fire insurance" they say the words and claim religiousness, but its not a heart felt thing. We are all flawed and we are all week, and sin is something we will eventually face and fail to resiist it.

And the Word does say all sin is equal.

The difference is, once we have Accepted Jesus; payment for us on the cross, once and for all, God sees us theru the blood of the Lord and forgives us.

Someone one under a strong hold of a particular sin, may slip, but still feel repentant, satan likes to hit us where we are weakest, and things like sexual desire/needs, that God gave us for good purposes, it one of the weakest places in us as humans.

I have met and talked with quite a few homosexuals, as has my ex husband, and a common thread has always run for every single one of them, i know this may not be true for all homosexual people, but all the ones we encountered thru work etc, were molested as children, Its as if, this premature sexual abuse imprints something into them, that, with help could have possibley made their lives different.
For me, the whole "i was born gay, this is how God made me" just attests to this, because they talk about feeling gay from a young age, they were sexualized far too young, and it changed what would be normal, the way God created it to be, into something distorted.

With women, they have often been raped or sexually abused by men as well.

I know its its not a abuse thing with all ppl who are gay, but from what i have seen its pretty common. But that is just my experience and knowledge.

Of course, this all just my opinion, i dont expect anyone to agree with me

 

[d0c markus]

Now, if we took the above verse (1 Jn 3:6 ) literally as a stand alone verse without studying it in contest and the original meaning, not a single one of us would see the kingdom of God, because we are ALL flawed sinners and physically incapable of not sinning 100% (and anyone who says they have not sinned since recieving Jesus is fooling himself), i just recently studied this section of scripture, and what it is meaning, as i understand it, is when someone gets "fire insurance" they say the words and claim religiousness, but its not a heart felt thing. We are all flawed and we are all week, and sin is something we will eventually face and fail to resiist it.

Take note because thats not what I said.

The previous verses define sin and states unequivically that he came to take away our sins and "in him is no sin" which leads up to the finishing point of: So if we are "in him" Then "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."


If all I basically said is that "i'm not a sinner" then I would have said "I am a saint who never sins" instead of saying "I am a saint who occasionally sins."

Which leads to my conclusion that anyone can "live in" any sin they like, but according to the scripture they are not saved by the blood of the Lamb because we are to "live in him" not our sins.


I brought up these verses not to sidetrack the OP's point of whether one sin is greater than another but just to point out the fallacy in stating that one can be a Christian and yet "live in sin." We all struggle, we all sin. The Holy Spirit gives us the strength and power to avoid it:


1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can standupunderit.

I wholly believe that anyone washed in the blood of the Lamb, from that day forward has the ability to live without sin, that is if you absoloutly believe what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 10:13. Thats hard to fathom eh? But its truly beautiful.

I'm not sure that you can contextualize it any differently, or if its original meaning is any different than what [i think] it says...I could however be missing something, could you exegete that passage for me?


- Markus -

 

[Heatherondo]

But, what if you are struggling with a sin problem? and fail in the struggle sometimes.
I am by no means saying, get saved and continue sinning all you want. I am talking about, struggling with a sin that has had a major hold on you, homosexuality is an example of that.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

1st John 1:8--If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.At first glance it would seem that verse contradicts 1st John 3:6, but a fifteen minute study would prove that it doesn't. We all sin, but like some are pointing out it's one thing to live in sin and another to occasionally sin. If someone who calls themself a Christian can live in sin and have no conviction or punishment for that lifestyle then they should probably re-examine their heart to see if Christ truly lives there or not.

I have my weaknesses as everyone else does that seems to get a strong hold from time to time and it damages our faith. We tend to slide away, much like David did, but if there is never that point of saying "Lord forgive me", then I would have my doubts about salvation.

I know this topic is about is all sin the same, and I believe it is, I just believe there are different levels of punishment for each sin. I mean I think someone who steals something wouldn't be punished as hard as say a child molestor. I'm also speaking about now in the physical world, not in the afterlife. Christians can still sin of course, but if they continue to walk in sin, then perhaps something is wrong.

 

[d0c markus]

1st John 1:8--If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.At first glance it would seem that verse contradicts 1st John 3:6, but a fifteen minute study would prove that it doesn't. We all sin, but like some are pointing out it's one thing to live in sin and another to occasionally sin. If someone who calls themself a Christian can live in sin and have no conviction or punishment for that lifestyle then they should probably re-examine their heart to see if Christ truly lives there or not.

I have my weaknesses as everyone else does that seems to get a strong hold from time to time and it damages our faith. We tend to slide away, much like David did, but if there is never that point of saying "Lord forgive me", then I would have my doubts about salvation.

I know this topic is about is all sin the same, and I believe it is, I just believe there are different levels of punishment for each sin. I mean I think someone who steals something wouldn't be punished as hard as say a child molestor. I'm also speaking about now in the physical world, not in the afterlife. Christians can still sin of course, but if they continue to walk in sin, then perhaps something is wrong.

Right, if i wasnt in the middle of moving i'd post some verses that kind of relate to different "levels" of hell. AT least at first glance thats what it seems.... GTG

Mark

 

[RadG]

1st John 1:8--If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.At first glance it would seem that verse contradicts 1st John 3:6, but a fifteen minute study would prove that it doesn't. We all sin, but like some are pointing out it's one thing to live in sin and another to occasionally sin. If someone who calls themself a Christian can live in sin and have no conviction or punishment for that lifestyle then they should probably re-examine their heart to see if Christ truly lives there or not.

I have my weaknesses as everyone else does that seems to get a strong hold from time to time and it damages our faith. We tend to slide away, much like David did, but if there is never that point of saying "Lord forgive me", then I would have my doubts about salvation.

I know this topic is about is all sin the same, and I believe it is, I just believe there are different levels of punishment for each sin. I mean I think someone who steals something wouldn't be punished as hard as say a child molestor. I'm also speaking about now in the physical world, not in the afterlife. Christians can still sin of course, but if they continue to walk in sin, then perhaps something is wrong.

As one pastor I know likes to say "I am not sinless but I sin less." Meaning that as we grow in faith we should be compelled not to live in sin but to try to sin less often and to ask for forgiveness when we fall off of the boat. I think the OP argument about a gay person unless they are struggling and repenting because of their desires trying to break free of the sin of homosexuality they are more than not likely saved, that would be like a murder claiming that he is a Christian yet keeps killing people because he sees nothing wrong with it. I have had other pastors describe repentance as a U-turn meaning you do a complete 180 from the path you are heading down and head towards the Lord. You will still encounter struggles but that is when YOU need to give up and ask for from God and possibly an accountability partner.

I do however believe that all sin is the same in the eyes of God because it says in the Bible "For the wages of sin is death" this is not major sins or certain sins but all sin.

 

[meg324]

1st John 1:8--If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.At first glance it would seem that verse contradicts 1st John 3:6, but a fifteen minute study would prove that it doesn't. We all sin, but like some are pointing out it's one thing to live in sin and another to occasionally sin. If someone who calls themself a Christian can live in sin and have no conviction or punishment for that lifestyle then they should probably re-examine their heart to see if Christ truly lives there or not.

OK, I have read all of this... I can't quote everything here because it would take far too long!
- When you are a Christian, you TRY not to sin, and if you do, you repent
- living in sin is different than occasional sin. A person who is "living in sin" doesn't want to break free (although I ask, how do we know what is in their hearts?)

Now, my question is this. What exactly would "occasional" be? In my original post, I mentioned a man who is married and has an affair. Maybe he feels bad about his struggle, maybe not. He could struggle with it for 6 months, which wouldn't be "occasional" in my book, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a small struggle - as opposed to those who struggle with alcoholism for years, or those who can't stop smoking, even though they feel bad every time they light up. How is their addiction to sin any greater than someone else's addiction to sin? If they all feel bad about it, why is it different?

"if someone has no conviction about sin".... which is my point. For example, I became a Christian at age 15. Yet, I had premarital sex. I felt bad about it, but I continued to do it. Does this mean I wasn't a Christian at the time? No. I still struggled with it, and I felt bad. REALLY bad.
I'm not talking about a homosexual (or anyone else) who embraces their sin - like how some other churches have embraced their gay pastors/priests. I'm talking about someone who is just sinning... but how would that be any different from someone who struggles with any sin - as long as they feel bad about it?
I believe that if one is trying to break free from sin and is trying to get rid of their sinful ways, then it's OK. Maybe they jsut need to ask God for a little more help, maybe they need to walk away from the people they know who will help them sin, I don't know. It's like how a rapist should maybe isolate himself from women, or a child molestor should stay away from kids & schoolyards, take a different route to work, etc. But they can still have faith in God, just they have a problem with sin and need to break free from it, just as we all do.
RadG - where does it say "the wages of sin is death"? I know I have read it recently. I went to a Bible search site last night and tried to find some passags, but I could not find it.

YOu guys have definetly given some insight

 

[RadG]

[/i]

OK, I have read all of this... I can't quote everything here because it would take far too long!
- When you are a Christian, you TRY not to sin, and if you do, you repent
- living in sin is different than occasional sin. A person who is "living in sin" doesn't want to break free (although I ask, how do we know what is in their hearts?)

Now, my question is this. What exactly would "occasional" be? In my original post, I mentioned a man who is married and has an affair. Maybe he feels bad about his struggle, maybe not. He could struggle with it for 6 months, which wouldn't be "occasional" in my book, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a small struggle - as opposed to those who struggle with alcoholism for years, or those who can't stop smoking, even though they feel bad every time they light up. How is their addiction to sin any greater than someone else's addiction to sin? If they all feel bad about it, why is it different?

"if someone has no conviction about sin".... which is my point. For example, I became a Christian at age 15. Yet, I had premarital sex. I felt bad about it, but I continued to do it. Does this mean I wasn't a Christian at the time? No. I still struggled with it, and I felt bad. REALLY bad.
I'm not talking about a homosexual (or anyone else) who embraces their sin - like how some other churches have embraced their gay pastors/priests. I'm talking about someone who is just sinning... but how would that be any different from someone who struggles with any sin - as long as they feel bad about it?
I believe that if one is trying to break free from sin and is trying to get rid of their sinful ways, then it's OK. Maybe they jsut need to ask God for a little more help, maybe they need to walk away from the people they know who will help them sin, I don't know. It's like how a rapist should maybe isolate himself from women, or a child molestor should stay away from kids & schoolyards, take a different route to work, etc. But they can still have faith in God, just they have a problem with sin and need to break free from it, just as we all do.
RadG - where does it say "the wages of sin is death"? I know I have read it recently. I went to a Bible search site last night and tried to find some passags, but I could not find it.

YOu guys have definetly given some insight

It is the first half or Romans 6:23 the whole verse is as follows
Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And maybe I should have made my point about repentance and struggling clear. The U-turn is not a clean problem free turn in which while you are trying to flee from sin you will encounter struggles as long as you have the feeling of conviction (ie feeling bad) and ask for forgiveness you are not living in sin but still struggling with it, that is where accountability comes into play. With those struggling with drug use and alchohol abuse you have progams like NA and AA.

 

[bleechers]

"It's not the perfection of my life, it's the direction of my life." - John MacArthur

The Christian has two natures: one nature does not sin for it cannot sin (1 John). The old nature is dying and will eventually be destroyed ("this corruption must put on incorruption"). When we were born-again, we became "NEW creatures". But old old "body of death" is still with us until death or until we are "transformed".

Those who preach sinless perfection love to quote the scripture that reads "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" but they almost always leave off the rest of that verse: "for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Surely, Paul teaches that we "can" sin. The teaching in 1 John refers to the "new man" who is "renewed day by day". We are to walk "in the newness of life" and not "according to the flesh" (which, btw, includes walking by The Law).

As has been rightly stated, if there is no inner conflict, if there is no desire to follow the Spirit of God and to enjoy the things of God (peace, righteousness, scripture, love of the brethern, desire for souls, defense of the gospel, etc.) then that person ought to examine his faith, whether it be of God.

As for the levels of punishment thought, I only add the following (the context is for false professors - see Matt 7:22 - so I'm not sure to what degree it is helpful) :


Luke 12
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[SumTinWong]

Great post Bleechers and I would add that Romans six speaks of this as well.
The Believer’s Freedom from Sin’s Domination

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? 6:2 Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.rom6_notes.htm#61

6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection.rom6_notes.htm#62 6:6 We know thatrom6_notes.htm#63 our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us,rom6_notes.htm#64 so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 6:7 (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)rom6_notes.htm#65

6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 6:9 We knowrom6_notes.htm#66 that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to dierom6_notes.htm#67 again; death no longer has mastery over him. 6:10 For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God. 6:11 So you too consider yourselvesrom6_notes.htm#68 dead to sin, butrom6_notes.htm#69 alive to God in Christ Jesus.

6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires, 6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instrumentsrom6_notes.htm#610 to be used for unrighteousness,rom6_notes.htm#611 but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead and your members to God as instrumentsrom6_notes.htm#612 to be used for righteousness. 6:14 For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace.


It just so happens I have been using a Chuck Swindoll study program on this subject

 

[ps139]

secondly IF A CATHOLIC IS READING this perhaps they can point us to a passage that they would say that one sin is greater as they have the venial sin/mortal sin doctrine. I do not know 1 off hand and dont feel like researching it tonight. If they or someone posts the verses then we can dissect it.

Good Day

I'd be happy to, Doc. Now you are aware that we do not use the Bible as our sole authority, so if you are not convinced by this, I will not be surprised .

[Bible]1 John 5:16-17[/Bible]

John says that some have "sin which does not lead to death" and then says "there is a sin that leads to death." Mortal = the sin that leads to death. Venial = sin that does not lead to death. If you'd like I'd be happy to expound on this more, if not, thats fine too.

 

[d0c markus]

I'd be happy to, Doc. Now you are aware that we do not use the Bible as our sole authority, so if you are not convinced by this, I will not be surprised .

1 John 5:16-1716 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

John says that some have "sin which does not lead to death" and then says "there is a sin that leads to death." Mortal = the sin that leads to death. Venial = sin that does not lead to death. If you'd like I'd be happy to expound on this more, if not, thats fine too.

Sure man, expound away... It'll make for a more interesting refutation I think

God Bless
Markus

p.s. thanks for the verse.

 

[d0c markus]

I'd be happy to, Doc. Now you are aware that we do not use the Bible as our sole authority, so if you are not convinced by this, I will not be surprised .

1 John 5:16-1716 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

John says that some have "sin which does not lead to death" and then says "there is a sin that leads to death." Mortal = the sin that leads to death. Venial = sin that does not lead to death. If you'd like I'd be happy to expound on this more, if not, thats fine too.

For a long time now i have been wondering who that dude depicted on your avatar is. I always thought it was you until I saw your picture in OBOB.

 

[bleechers]

Ummm.... could you guys either take this private or to OBOB or a theology room? I don't want this thread to decay into a debate on venial sins... which will necessiate a futhrer decay into Purgatory... Indulgences... Veneration of "Saints"... Treasury of Merit... Trent... Antahemas... and other things best suited for other threads.

My fear is that if a doctrine is refuted here and quotes are required, it may be against the forum rules.

Just a suggestion before any rules are violated.

 

[ps139]

Ummm.... could you guys either take this private or to OBOB or a theology room? I don't want this thread to decay into a debate on venial sins... which will necessiate a futhrer decay into Purgatory... Indulgences... Veneration of "Saints"... Treasury of Merit... Trent... Antahemas... and other things best suited for other threads.

My fear is that if a doctrine is refuted here and quotes are required, it may be against the forum rules.

Just a suggestion before any rules are violated.

Well, its not my forum, and I clearly understand the rules that I cannot debate, hey it might be fun for you guys, you can refute me all you want and I can't answer back! . It would not turn into a debate, or go onto a different subject, or else I'd be warned and I'd deserve it. And I have no quotes to bring either.