Is an actively gay person who believes in Jesus saved?

[Xalith]

This is the reason why Jesus had to come and sacrifice for our sins . a homosexual can be saved just like a liar can be .

I don't think anybody in this thread has ever disagreed with this statement.

However, the Bible does speak loads about repentance. He forgives those who repent and ask for forgiveness. That's all over the Bible, in fact I'd have to say that's the greater portion of the Bible is about Repentance and Forgiveness.

But yet....

How can you claim to repent.... but continue doing it anyways?

If I punch you in the face and then repent, you might forgive me, right? But what if I turn around and deck you in the face again three seconds later and then ask for your forgiveness? After awhile of that, you're going to start thinking that I am not actually repentant at all.

Now, Jesus did respond to Peter's question about "how many times shall I forgive someone? seven?" and Jesus said something like "I tell you, seventy times seven." (paraphrased of course). However, this forgiveness comes to someone who is actually repentant.

Going before God and saying "I repent" but yet in your heart, you have no intention whatsoever of turning away from the thing you supposedly repent doing, is pretty much lying straight to His face, and trust me... He knows what you have in your heart.

Now, if you're a homosexual and you actually do feel guilt, remorse, and sorrow over your sin and you truly do repent, but you find the urges too hard to resist... well that's different. I'm sure homosexuals have been saved in the past who truly did wish to break their habit, but couldn't. I also bet there are homosexuals who are either convinced that what they're doing is all OK and fine, or worse yet... they know it is a sin, but they shrug their shoulders and go "bah, it isn't hurting anyone so I'll do it anyways...." these, I'm sure will be among the people in Matthew 7:22 (along with people who did the same thing with other sins).

The Epistles (I think both Paul and... was it Peter?) say that every Christian will sin in their lives, and any Christian who claims he/she is without sin is deceiving themselves. Our response to the fact we sin is one of the classic tests of whether or not we are truly in the faith. If we hate the fact we have sin in our lives, if we hate our sins, then that's a good indicator that we are saved and that we are in the faith. If we have a callous "meh, I don't care" attitude towards our sins... then there's something seriously wrong and the person needs to re-evaluate their salvation and do some very earnest praying.

 

[jenny1972]

I don't think anybody in this thread has ever disagreed with this statement.

However, the Bible does speak loads about repentance. He forgives those who repent and ask for forgiveness. That's all over the Bible, in fact I'd have to say that's the greater portion of the Bible is about Repentance and Forgiveness.

But yet....

How can you claim to repent.... but continue doing it anyways?

If I punch you in the face and then repent, you might forgive me, right? But what if I turn around and deck you in the face again three seconds later and then ask for your forgiveness? After awhile of that, you're going to start thinking that I am not actually repentant at all.

Now, Jesus did respond to Peter's question about "how many times shall I forgive someone? seven?" and Jesus said something like "I tell you, seventy times seven." (paraphrased of course). However, this forgiveness comes to someone who is actually repentant.

Going before God and saying "I repent" but yet in your heart, you have no intention whatsoever of turning away from the thing you supposedly repent doing, is pretty much lying straight to His face, and trust me... He knows what you have in your heart.

Now, if you're a homosexual and you actually do feel guilt, remorse, and sorrow over your sin and you truly do repent, but you find the urges too hard to resist... well that's different. I'm sure homosexuals have been saved in the past who truly did wish to break their habit, but couldn't. I also bet there are homosexuals who are either convinced that what they're doing is all OK and fine, or worse yet... they know it is a sin, but they shrug their shoulders and go "bah, it isn't hurting anyone so I'll do it anyways...." these, I'm sure will be among the people in Matthew 7:22 (along with people who did the same thing with other sins).

The Epistles (I think both Paul and... was it Peter?) say that every Christian will sin in their lives, and any Christian who claims he/she is without sin is deceiving themselves. Our response to the fact we sin is one of the classic tests of whether or not we are truly in the faith. If we hate the fact we have sin in our lives, if we hate our sins, then that's a good indicator that we are saved and that we are in the faith. If we have a callous "meh, I don't care" attitude towards our sins... then there's something seriously wrong and the person needs to re-evaluate their salvation and do some very earnest praying.

so for christians such as kim davis for example who remarries and continues to live in sin and who is considered an abomination to God ... these people instead of repenting and turning away from their sin , leaving the sinful marriage , and returning to their first husband or remaining single - these people also cannot really claim to to be repentant , forgiven of their sins and saved correct ?

 

[Xalith]

so for christians such as kim davis for example who remarries and continues to live in sin instead of turning away from their sin , leaving the sinful marriage , and returning to their first husband these people also cannot really claim to to be repentant , forgiven of their sins and saved?

Second Marriages are... difficult to really handle, to be honest. We don't know how God views them.

Consider a couple scenarios..

1). Person A marries Person B, they divorce, Person A then marries Person C. A and C are living in sin as the Bible says. Let's say Person A comes to Christ sometime thereafter. Are they supposed to suddenly divorce C and go back to B, and break up the whole marriage, even though C did nothing wrong?

2). Person A marries Person B, they divorce, Person A then marries Person C. Person A then comes to Christ, and they stay in the marriage because Person A doesn't want to punish C for something they didn't even do wrong.

IMO, since divorce is so prevalent in our society, maybe He makes exception for it? I don't know, truly.

It's a whole 'nuther can of worms that the Bible doesn't cover clearly. Is it considered one sin, or is it a new sin every day the couple remains together? If the former, then it is forgiven the moment they repent. But if it is considered a new instance of sin every day they are together, then I dunno...

That's a bit different than living a lifestyle that is sinful, such as a couple who are not married, but are living together and actively having sex (which would be termed as fornication which is very obvious sin). Said couple should get married ASAP (or stop seeing each other) so that they are no longer living in sin, as each time they have sex, is another instance of committing sin.

The Bible really isn't clear on marriages and divorce; Christ says that He wishes divorce was never put into place, and that divorce is actually adultery (He did make an exception for divorce for reason of infidelity though). However, what He did not say is whether or not it is counted as once instance of sin (the moment they remarried), or if each sexual act or each day spent together is a new instance of sin.

I'm not sure if I'm wording that very clear, if you have trouble, I can try explaining it again in different words.

 

[jenny1972]

IMO, since divorce is so prevalent in our society, maybe He makes exception for it? I don't know, truly.

homosexuality is also prevalent in our society so why would he make exception for one popular sin and not another ? i think there is just a lot of hypocrisy happening im just trying to make a point there is no answer for it it is just simply hypocrisy , its unfair its just people as the Bible says who 'work iniquity' (unfairness) if you do judge others then at least judge fairly and equally call out and rebuke every person that sins in any way . or if you make allowances and take extenuating circumstances into account who have been divorced you should do the same equally for other sinners right?

but yes the Bible does speak against any divorce and only give allowances for divorce in cases of adultery any divorce outside adultery isnt permitted in the Bible and therefore a sin ...
1Co 7:10-1Co 7:11 Unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

 

[jenny1972]

It's a whole 'nuther can of worms that the Bible doesn't cover clearly. Is it considered one sin, or is it a new sin every day the couple remains together? If the former, then it is forgiven the moment they repent. But if it is considered a new instance of sin every day they are together, then I dunno...

well the same can be applied to the issue of homosexuality , is it considered one sin or is it a new sin every day that the couple remains together ? If the former then they too are forgiven the moment they repent . and since we are so uncertain about the whole thing of repentance and how it works exactly isnt it best to just leave it up to God to change people and transform people who seek Him out and stay out of the issue that we are kinda confused about ?

 

[Xalith]

well the same can be applied to the issue of homosexuality , is it considered one sin or is it a new sin every day that the couple remains together ? If the former then they too are forgiven the moment they repent . and since we are so uncertain about the whole thing of repentance and how it works exactly isnt it best to just leave it up to God to change people and transform people who seek Him out and stay out of the issue that we are kinda confused about ?

Well, IMO, if Homosexuality is indeed a sin, then it would surely be a sin each time the couple has sex similar to Fornication. It isn't a sin for two men (or indeed women) to live in the same house. For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, it is a sin, however, to have homosexual sex regardless of what the US Government says about marriage.

or if you make allowances and take extenuating circumstances into account who have been divorced you should do the same equally for other sinners right?

The only reason I did this for Divorce, is because Divorce and Re-Marriage involves (at the very minimum) Three People, one of which who might be completely innocent in the matter.

Let's go back to the theoretical Persons A, B, and C.

A Marries B. They divorce. A then Marries C. A did not tell C or perhaps C wasn't a Christian and didn't know it was a sin. A and C marry and then what?

Is C going to have this held against them? Should A and C divorce so that A can go back to B to "get out of sin"? That would ruin C's life and happiness, right? C didn't do anything in the wrong here.

That's why I was "making exceptions" or "taking extenuating circumstances", because of the Three Person Dilemma. Homosexual sex only involves 2 and they should both have a belief system before they get in bed with each other, right?

Now, I do agree with what you're saying about people judging other people... we should not be judging people. We're to explain our beliefs and let the people think it over. If someone is homosexual, comes to this thread, reads both sides of the debate and continues their homosexual life... well that's between them and God. I'm not going to step in between that. I participate in this debate while not laying judgment upon any specific person(s). I am merely debating whether or not the act itself is a sin.

 

[jenny1972]

Well, IMO, if Homosexuality is indeed a sin, then it would surely be a sin each time the couple has sex similar to Fornication. It isn't a sin for two men (or indeed women) to live in the same house. For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, it is a sin, however, to have homosexual sex regardless of what the US Government says about marriage.

by the same token , according to the Bible its fornication every time a remarried heterosexual couple have sex regardless of what the US Government says about marriage . are you also as outspoken against heterosexual couples who have been remarried and are living in sin and fornicating every time they have sex ? do you equally speak out against these people in your church , online and as often as you speak out against homosexual marriage ? do you speak out against people who have been remarried at all ? or do they get a pass because you yourself dont consider it a sin because its popular and socially acceptable ?

i hope you dont think im picking on you personally im just trying to make a point for everyone in general , whats good for the goose is good for the gander . if we do judge we should be equal and fair as the Bible says we will be judged as we judge others in this life so its something people should consider .

 

[jenny1972]

sinners like kim davis who commit abominations on an ongoing basis shouldnt be judging other sinners who commit abominations is all im saying . The old testament lays out the rules for divorce and remarriage. actually one of the rules is, if a man divorces his wife and she's been defiled he is not able to remarry her. The old testament verses about divorce can be found in Deuteronomy 24

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Some churches would still abide by that old testament law and will not marry any divorced couples at all. The belief held in truely fundamentalist , and not hypocritical , churches is that a spouse remain single forever after divorce. Even when cheated on (as this has actually occurred in my sisters fundamentalist church , a womans husband went on to do whatever he wanted as she remains single...and will be counseled to always remain single)

 

[iansek]

sinners like kim davis who commit abominations on an ongoing basis shouldnt be judging other sinners who commit abominations is all im saying . The old testament lays out the rules for divorce and remarriage. actually one of the rules is, if a man divorces his wife and she's been defiled he is not able to remarry her. The old testament verses about divorce can be found in Deuteronomy 24

Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Some churches would still abide by that old testament law and will not marry any divorced couples at all. The belief held in truely fundamentalist , and not hypocritical , churches is that a spouse remain single forever after divorce. Even when cheated on (as this has actually occurred in my sisters fundamentalist church , a womans husband went on to do whatever he wanted as she remains single...and will be counseled to always remain single)

 

[iansek]

Yes an actively gay person is saved if they have repented to God and believed in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ at one point in their life and thus been regenerated. When they did this the Holy Spirit came into their human spirit and made them alive in Christ, a new creation and born again.
Thus the process of transformation and full salvation begins. It requires our cooperation by abiding in the Lord, coming to His word and loving Him.
Some people once born again experience great deliverance from many sins while others take time to get over sinful habits. Nobody achieves sinless perfection.
I Know sinful heterosexuals who commit adultery and fornication yet faithfully come to church , minister the word and genuinely love the Lord.
The truth is we all commit sins and are at different stages of our christian life.
The more open we are to the Lord the more He will fill us and grow in us but sadly some heteros and some gays remain stuck in a backslidden state even after regeneration. Their portion will be with the hypocrites for a thousand years as a dispensational dealing or punishment for not growing in Christ but remaining in sin and careless concerning God and his holiness.

 

[cuja1]

What Gods word says is that people receive revelation from God about these things but they suppress the truth. Outwardly, or if we listen to what people are telling us, it may seem like the person has no indication about the sin, but I think we would all be shocked at the kind and amount of revelation God does give people about Himself and about sin. God knows, and everyone will be held accountable to the revelation that God has given them. We don't like to think people would ignore God and do what they know is wrong, but that is exactly what Gods word says a lot of people do.

True, but I think people get turned upside down and confused and don't have a clue what is true, what is right or wrong. I think when some people say they don't believe something is a sin, even though the Bible says it is, they truly believe it.

The Bible says the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to people so sometimes it doesn't matter how good of evidence we present, they will not believe until it is revealed to them by God.

 

[cuja1]

The Bible says that even the smallest sin prevents us from attaining the perfection that God calls us to seek and that one single sin is as great as the worst sin.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law , and yet stumble in one point , he is guilty of all.

there are over 120 sins listed in the Bible if we commit the sin of lying , greed , covetousness , love of money , gluttony , complaining , tempting God , high mindedness , disobedience , lover of self , putting family friends job or anything else above God , or any of the others we are guilty of all sins including homosexuality ourselves . This is the reason why Jesus had to come and sacrifice for our sins . a homosexual can be saved just like a liar can be .

I agree. Not that one should continue on in that sin, but they can definitely be saved.

 

[Marius27]

Well, IMO, if Homosexuality is indeed a sin, then it would surely be a sin each time the couple has sex similar to Fornication. It isn't a sin for two men (or indeed women) to live in the same house. For those who believe homosexuality is a sin, it is a sin, however, to have homosexual sex regardless of what the US Government says about marriage.

But the only solution you guys have is forced celibacy, which both Jesus and Paul reject as an option for most people, and even Pope Benedict said celibacy is not a compulsion, it's something that must be voluntarily chosen.

Why would God put gays in such a hopeless position?

 

[Marius27]

True, but I think people get turned upside down and confused and don't have a clue what is true, what is right or wrong. I think when some people say they don't believe something is a sin, even though the Bible says it is, they truly believe it.

The Bible says the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to people so sometimes it doesn't matter how good of evidence we present, they will not believe until it is revealed to them by God.

The same could be said for those who reject the evidence dispelling the anti-gay view of the Bible. No matter how much evidence shows it's a weak case, the anti-gay side will continue to fight against it.

 

[Svt4Him]

so for christians such as kim davis for example who remarries and continues to live in sin and who is considered an abomination to God ... these people instead of repenting and turning away from their sin , leaving the sinful marriage , and returning to their first husband or remaining single - these people also cannot really claim to to be repentant , forgiven of their sins and saved correct ?

This subject is so misquoted. It is not an abomination to God to remarry, and in fact it's a doctrine of demons to promote this belief, as per Paul.

The hardness of heart comes when one puts away their spouse but doesn't divorce them. Still happens now. Because the KJV uses put away and divorce interchangeably it has caused confusion, but when other versions say something different, and the NT doesn't agree with the OT, then it is a time to study to show yourself approved.

Best article on this:
http://www.totalhealth.bz/divorce-and-remarriage-truth-1.htm...and
http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

You may not agree, but it's not as black and white, so nope, they don't have to repent, they may not be in sin.

 

[Xalith]

This subject is so misquoted. It is not an abomination to God to remarry, and in fact it's a doctrine of demons to promote this belief, as per Paul.

The hardness of heart comes when one puts away their spouse but doesn't divorce them. Still happens now. Because the KJV uses put away and divorce interchangeably it has caused confusion, but when other versions say something different, and the NT doesn't agree with the OT, then it is a time to study to show yourself approved.

Best article on this:
http://www.totalhealth.bz/divorce-and-remarriage-truth-1.htm...and
http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

You may not agree, but it's not as black and white, so nope, they don't have to repent, they may not be in sin.

When you say re-marry, do you mean re-marry their first spouse, or marry someone else? If you mean the Latter, Christ specifically said that marrying a 2nd spouse constitutes adultery unless the prior marriage failed because of infidelity.

 

[cuja1]

The same could be said for those who reject the evidence dispelling the anti-gay view of the Bible. No matter how much evidence shows it's a weak case, the anti-gay side will continue to fight against it.

I can't argue with that. Hopefully everyone on both sides of the argument fully believe what they claim.

 

[cuja1]

This subject is so misquoted. It is not an abomination to God to remarry, and in fact it's a doctrine of demons to promote this belief, as per Paul.

The hardness of heart comes when one puts away their spouse but doesn't divorce them. Still happens now. Because the KJV uses put away and divorce interchangeably it has caused confusion, but when other versions say something different, and the NT doesn't agree with the OT, then it is a time to study to show yourself approved.

Best article on this:
http://www.totalhealth.bz/divorce-and-remarriage-truth-1.htm...and
http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

You may not agree, but it's not as black and white, so nope, they don't have to repent, they may not be in sin.

Are you saying it's not a sin to get a divorce?

 

[Xalith]

Are you saying it's not a sin to get a divorce?

Christ made an exception for infidelity in the Scripture in Matthew 5:32.

"That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,"

Now, it is odd the KJV translates that as Fornication instead of Adultery or Infidelity, but Biblehub's Greek says the real translation ought to be "except on account for sexual immorality" instead.

But it is clear (at least to me), that He is talking about infidelity and similar things.

 

[jenny1972]

This subject is so misquoted. It is not an abomination to God to remarry, and in fact it's a doctrine of demons to promote this belief, as per Paul.

The hardness of heart comes when one puts away their spouse but doesn't divorce them. Still happens now. Because the KJV uses put away and divorce interchangeably it has caused confusion, but when other versions say something different, and the NT doesn't agree with the OT, then it is a time to study to show yourself approved.

Best article on this:
http://www.totalhealth.bz/divorce-and-remarriage-truth-1.htm...and
http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm

You may not agree, but it's not as black and white, so nope, they don't have to repent, they may not be in sin.

so you deny that Deu 24:4 uses the word abomination ? it clearly states that a woman who has been sent away (could be divorced or separated)is defiled and an abomination

"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."