Is Allah the same God as The Christian God?

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Islam doesn't say this. "

*sigh* yes it does. If you are "repressed" it is okay to kill them. This includes them stepping into your mosque check this out too

http://www.carm.org/islam/hadith_jihad.htm

Um, wrong.  There are several problems with your quotations:

1.  This is a Christian apologetics website, not an impartial site. 

2. The only mention of "repressed" is in the Christian website's own summary of the hadith presented.

3.  This is a page of Hadith.  Clue phone, Louis: Hadith is not Koran.  If you don't know this, then perhaps you should return to square one and learn the difference between the two. 

4.  And while you're at it, you should also discover which category al-Bukhari placed these hadiths into.

5. And finally, after you've done all that, learn about abrogation and consensus:  two principles of Islamic theology. 

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Maybe you are looking at half a picture here. Surely my God and her God is the God of the OT, NT and the Qur'an.</"

Nope, allah is not the same as God. repost it. and use [ ]instead of &lt; &gt;

Was this a quotation of someone else's post?

 

[LouisBooth]

"This is a Christian apologetics website, not an impartial site. "

there is no such thing as an "impartial site".

"Clue phone, Louis: Hadith is not Koran. "

*sigh* I know this, it was part of the Islam relgion. I didn't say it was part of the koran did I?

What it comes down to is that Islam says its okay to kill people for "repressing you" and they don't even go to lenghts to define that. Killing innocents is okay according to Islam. Do some reading will you sauron?

 

[Shane Roach]

I'd have to say that while you are making intellectual points Sauron, you are not addressing the obvious issue of the quotes themselves. For the sake of your beliefs, instead of insulting people for not understanding, go ahead and explain. Otherwise it looks as if you are dodging the issue.

What are the Hadiths, and what do you mean by abrogation and consensus, other than the obvious (both words have meaning completely apart from the Koran)?

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Islam doesn't say this. "

*sigh* yes it does. If you are "repressed" it is okay to kill them. This includes them stepping into your mosque check this out too

http://www.carm.org/islam/hadith_jihad.htm

What the Koran actually says:

"The best jihad is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic" [3]

"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (the Qur'an)"
(Surah Al-Furqan 25:52)

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"
(Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

"He who kills himself with anything, Allah will torment him with that in the fire of Hell" [8]

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"This is a Christian apologetics website, not an impartial site. "

there is no such thing as an "impartial site".

What a cop-out.&nbsp; Actually, there is such a thing as an impartial site, Louis.&nbsp; At least, not one with such obvious and blatant biases.

But even if you were correct, and no site was completely free of all bias, that would not excuse you getting your information from a site whose entire goal is to discredit some position.&nbsp; Just because nobody might be *completely* unbiased, that's no reason to use such an obvious slanted christian website.

It would be like a curious Hindu person relying on an anti-christian website, hosted by another (militant) Hindu.&nbsp; You would have no respect for that, because the curious Hindu wasn't going to the "horse's mouth", i.e., to christianity itself, in order to get his/her information.

"Clue phone, Louis: Hadith is not Koran. "

*sigh* I know this, it was part of the Islam relgion. I didn't say it was part of the koran did I?

*sigh* let's go through this again.

1.&nbsp;Sheep said &nbsp;the other says kill the infidels if they come into&nbsp;your mosque, or if you are invading them in their city; to make them pay a jiza tax if they want to live.&nbsp;

2.&nbsp;I said, "Islam doesn't say this".

3.&nbsp; You quoted from the Hadith. You blew it.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; The Hadith is not Islam, nor is it Koran.&nbsp; And the Hadith by itself does not stand without the Koran back it up (that, plus a few other things).&nbsp;

What it comes down to is that Islam says its okay to kill people for "repressing you"

No, it does not.&nbsp; And as I pointed out, the only person using this "repressing you" prhase is the author of your biased christian website.&nbsp;

and they don't even go to lenghts to define that.

Why should they define it?&nbsp; The phrase "repressing you" isn't even used in these hadiths.&nbsp; Why should they define a term or condition that they didn't even use? &nbsp;

If you want this defined, go to the christian author who posted the commentary on this christian website - cuz he/she is the only one who made such a claim about "killing people who repress you".

You're quite a riot, Louis.

Killing innocents is okay according to Islam. Do some reading will you sauron?

Actually, no it isn't, Louis.&nbsp; And since I have a Bachelor's degree in the topic, I'm quite certain that I know more about it than you do.&nbsp;

As for doing some reading, I just posted some verses from the Koran that directly refute your claim that killing innocents is OK in Islam.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Here they are again; perhaps if you read them 30 times, it will finally sink in, hmmm???



"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

"He who kills himself with anything, Allah will torment him with that in the fire of Hell" [8]

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)


[/QUOTE]

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Shane Roach
I'd have to say that while you are making intellectual points Sauron, you are not addressing the obvious issue of the quotes themselves. For the sake of your beliefs, instead of insulting people for not understanding, go ahead and explain. Otherwise it looks as if you are dodging the issue.

You must be new here - or at least, new to this topic.&nbsp;

I've re-hashed this issue several times with Louis, Simple Christian, and several other poorly informed people.&nbsp; It's not a question of me dodging the issue; it's a question of having already provided the information to them - several times -&nbsp;and watching them choose to ignore it and cling to their misconceptions instead.

And then, after a week or two goes by, they re-surface, make the same weak, busted claims, and expect to not be noticed.

And it's also kind of interesting to note that, as Sheep says, there are a lot of Islamic sites on the net.&nbsp; So the fact that Sheep and Louis both seem bent on retaining their flawed views on Islam, in spite of the abundant and easy access to authoritative information and resources - - well, the stubbornness of that attitude indicates that they do not, in fact, give a rip about discovering the truth.&nbsp;

Hate is more fun than knowledge, and getting emotionally worked up is easier than dry research, I suppose.&nbsp;

FYI - previous threads on this topic:

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=17150&amp;perpage=10&amp;display=&amp;pagenumber=12

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=16118&amp;perpage=10&amp;display=&amp;pagenumber=1

What are the Hadiths, and what do you mean by abrogation and consensus, other than the obvious (both words have meaning completely apart from the Koran)?

Hadiths are the collected sayings, actions, deeds, and unspoken signals from the Prophet.&nbsp; There are several collections of hadiths, depending upon the author and the tradition that they come from.&nbsp; They do not all agree among each other - which is why using hadith to back your religious position is shaky, because if someone else comes from a different hadith tradition, then they aren't even going to acknowledge that your hadith is valid.

Secondly, hadith are organized into hierarchies of reliability, based upon the purity of the transmission, the character of the individuals, their reputations as good Muslims, whether the hadith agrees/disagrees with the Koran, etc.&nbsp; Those three categories are xahiih, hassan, and da'iif ("sound", "good", and "weak").

However, even the strongest hadith fall far short of the reliability of the Koran.&nbsp; The strongest hadith is not as strong as the weakest verse in the Koran.&nbsp; The Koran is the only thing that is considered infallible; the reliance on the hadith varies from place to place, and country to country.&nbsp; In Libya, for example, hadith is 100% excluded from the Islamic law and jurisprudence.&nbsp;

Abrogation is the principle (or claim) of a previous doctrine or idea being repealed.&nbsp; In other words, before you go trying to say that the Koran or Hadith says XYZ, it has to be consistent with everything prior we know about Islam, and cannot contradict or repeal it.&nbsp; If it does so, then your claim (or interpretation) is wrong.&nbsp; Moreover, you had better have several hadiths upon which to hang your claim - trying to base a viewpoint on only 2 or 3 hadiths is a sketchy proposition.

Consensus&nbsp;- this is the principle of ijma'a, which says that Allah guides the community of Islam (i.e., the body of believers, both alive and dead, throughout all history). Because of this, the overall consensus in Islam cannot be wrong - Allah is guiding it, and would not permit that consensus to ever be in error.

Historical /exegetical context - this means understanding not just why something was said, but when it was said.&nbsp; There are some statements that appear to be general commands, but when examined in the context of the rest of the chapter of the Koran, or when examined in the light of the specific historical incident or battle.&nbsp; Then it becomes obvious that the instructions given were not universal, but were limited to the situation at hand, at that single moment.

Alright.&nbsp; The interpretations of the hadith that this christian website would like to spin-doctor are wrong, because of:

1.&nbsp; the fact that they are not Koran in the first place, and Hadith does not substitute for Koran, due to its non-universal acceptance in the Islamic world;

2. to accept the christian spin would result in abrogation of previous Islamic precepts;

3. to accept the christian spin would&nbsp;violate consensus of the Islamic community;

4.&nbsp; to accept the christian spin would be to do so outside of historical/exegetical context of the hadiths in question

&nbsp;

 

[Gerry]

And since I have a Bachelor's degree in the topic, I'm quite certain that I know more about it than you do.

You don't need a Bachelors Degree to watch CNN SEE how peaceful Islam is!

 

[Zico]

Well Gerrry,

You'll find any thing you need to know about islam, just keep watching CNN

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

1. This is a Christian apologetics website, not an impartial site.

Sauron is right, and wrong. This carm.org is an apologetics site, but since it lists Catholics in with cults and Islam, and other false religions, then it is hardly a "Christian Apologetics" site, and is pretty pathetic actually.

I have written the author and the ignorance is astounding.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Gerry

You don't need a Bachelors Degree to watch CNN SEE how peaceful Islam is!

I could say the same thing about Christianity.&nbsp; AFter Yugoslavia fell apart, the Bosnian Muslims and Croats were attacked by Christian Serbs.&nbsp; Those same Christian Serbs killed literally hundreds of thousands of people, and drove almost a million people from their homes, in acts of ethnic cleansing.

And I watched it all on CNN, too.&nbsp; Day after day, the cameras from CNN, ABC Nightline, the BBC, etc. showed everybody what the Christian Serbs were doing to the Muslim minorities.

So, borrowing your standard of evidence , I guess I can say that Christianity is not a peaceful religion, right?&nbsp; Cause - you know - I saw Christians committing atrocities on CNN.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by s0uljah


Sauron is right, and wrong. This carm.org is an apologetics site, but since it lists Catholics in with cults and Islam, and other false religions, then it is hardly a "Christian Apologetics" site, and is pretty pathetic actually.

I have written the author and the ignorance is astounding.

I didn't realize that the carm.org website was that bad.&nbsp; Thanks for updating me.&nbsp; This information does provide another good example of what I was trying to illustrate to Louis Booth, however.&nbsp;

So Louis - if I wanted to know what the fundamental beliefs of the Roman Catholic church are, what do you recommend?

Should I:

a.&nbsp; go to a website like carm.org that is biased against them and may or may not be accurately reflecting RC beliefs;

OR

b. go directly to the Roman Catholic Church, its books, its clergy, and its teachings, and find out for myself?

&nbsp;

 

[LouisBooth]

"Actually, there is such a thing as an impartial site, Louis. At least, not one with such obvious and blatant biases. "

Okay, find one that talks against Islam.

"Actually, no it isn't, Louis. "

Yes, it is. If they aren't Islam and they say, umm..I live there..and its "your land" you can kill them. You should read the Koran sometime Sar instead of pretending like you've read it after glancing at some web site.

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).

"In the future, make no more treaties with pagans, but kill those who do not receive Islam.)"

Sura 9:5 I think....

The think you forget Sur is that unbelievers are okay to be killed. That's the bottom line..if they are innocent or not. They don't believe in Islam, you can kill them.

 

[LouisBooth]

"This information does provide another good example of what I was trying to illustrate to Louis Booth, however. "

*sigh* Hey saru...I think you are missing a baby..you threw it out with the bathwater.

 

[Shane Roach]

Originally posted by Sauron


I could say the same thing about Christianity.&nbsp; AFter Yugoslavia fell apart, the Bosnian Muslims and Croats were attacked by Christian Serbs.&nbsp; Those same Christian Serbs killed literally hundreds of thousands of people, and drove almost a million people from their homes, in acts of ethnic cleansing.

And I watched it all on CNN, too.&nbsp; Day after day, the cameras from CNN, ABC Nightline, the BBC, etc. showed everybody what the Christian Serbs were doing to the Muslim minorities.

So, borrowing your standard of evidence , I guess I can say that Christianity is not a peaceful religion, right?&nbsp; Cause - you know - I saw Christians committing atrocities on CNN.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

A fairly one sided view of that conflict, but I am in no real position to debate it fully as I have little time on my hands to go looking for sources and such which this crowd seems to like to hash over.

A more simple question would be to ask if you Sauron truly would prefer to live in an Islaamic nation, or would prefer to stay here? Do you not see the obvious superiority of nations that have evolved out of the Judeo-Christian ethical systems?

And pardon my ignorance but this Sura that Louis Booth is quoting, is this another Hadith or is he quoting the Koran now?

And finally, what if anything does any of this mean as to whether or not we as Christians worship the same "god" so to speak as the Muslims? It seems to me if we worship Christ and they don't that it is clear we are worshiping a different God. Perhaps the Jews and Muslims worship the same. Odd that the Catholics apparently insist it is the same. This seems to be more of a political posture than anything else.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Actually, there is such a thing as an impartial site, Louis. At least, not one with such obvious and blatant biases. "

Okay, find one that talks against Islam.

Huh?&nbsp;

Let's go over this again, Louis.

1. The problem with your websites is that they are all christian sites with an agenda to bash islam.&nbsp; They're biased, period.

2.&nbsp; You need to get unbiased information (or at least, significantly less biased information) than you are receiving now.

3.&nbsp; But then you ask "show me one that talks against Islam".&nbsp;

How does that satisfy the condition to find an unbiased source?Are you saying that you'll accept any site as authoritative, providing that it shares the bias you already have, and wants to slam Muslims?&nbsp; I.e., the website can have any viewpoint it wants, as long as it agrees with yours?

Sheesh.&nbsp; No wonder it's taking you so long to spot the error in your (alleged) logic.


If I were a non-believer looking for information about christianity, you would tell me to go to the bible and/or a christian website.&nbsp; If I went to a hindu website to find information about christ and christianity, you would tell me I was crazy - why not ask someone who believes in it?&nbsp; Why get my information filtered through the eyes and mind of someone who doesn't truly share those beliefs?

Yet, when faced with a parallel situation, you wont' bother to look at Islamic websites.&nbsp; Nor will you actually read Islamic texts or the views of Islamic scholars.&nbsp; Instead, you get your information filtered through websites whose intent is to slam Islam.

The fact that you are unable to see your own double-standard is very interesting, Louis.&nbsp; It illustrates the innate hypocrisy that most christians cling to:&nbsp; they want other people to take their beliefs seriously, but they aren't willing to give anyone else the same courtesy.

"Actually, no it isn't, Louis. "

Yes, it is. If they aren't Islam and they say, umm..I live there..and its "your land" you can kill them.

Wrong.&nbsp; As you should well know - I provided several verses that illustrate this principle.&nbsp; In addition, your stupid claim above is not supported by sharia (Islamic) law.

You should read the Koran sometime Sar instead of pretending like you've read it after glancing at some web site.

I have read it, Louis.&nbsp; In the original Arabic.&nbsp; You should try it.&nbsp; Oh, that's right - you can't.&nbsp;

And even if you had a copy in English, you wouldn't read it, either.&nbsp; All you would do is skim it for juicy, out-of-context quotes and then pretend you understood what it said.

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).

These were specific instructions for specific historical incidents; they are not intended as general inwstructions for all time.&nbsp;&nbsp; Here; do you obey this verse?Deu 13:15 then kill all the people in that town and all their livestock too. Destroy that town completely.

Just as there were specific historical events that were covered by special instructions to the Israelites, the same situation existed with Islam.

"In the future, make no more treaties with pagans, but kill those who do not receive Islam.)"

Sura 9:5 I think....

This verse does not exist.&nbsp; Sura 9:5 says something different, and is also situational.&nbsp; It discusses a specific event in the early life of the community of Islamic believers, and is not an instruction for ALL Muslims, everywhere, throughout all time.

That's about the fifth time I've said that by now; wonder if it'll sink in or not....

The think you forget Sur is that unbelievers are okay to be killed.

I haven't forgotten anything.&nbsp; Your claim is incorrect and uneducated, and I therefore dismiss it.&nbsp;

Moreover, you've obviously decided not to read the other suras I gave you, as well as the explanation of abrogation and consensus - both of which contradict your outlandish claim.

You are demonstrating&nbsp;precisely what I said earlier would happen - you are so predictable:

I've re-hashed this issue several times with Louis, Simple Christian, and several other poorly informed people.&nbsp; It's not a question of me dodging the issue; it's a question of having already provided the information to them - several times -&nbsp;and watching them choose to ignore it and cling to their misconceptions instead.

And then, after a week or two goes by, they re-surface, make the same weak, busted claims, and expect to not be noticed.

Thanks for proving my point.

That's the bottom line..if they are innocent or not. They don't believe in Islam, you can kill them. [/B]

Actually, there are two bottom lines:

1.&nbsp; Islam does NOT make this claim; and

2.&nbsp;Louis&nbsp;is consistently wrong about Islamic beliefs

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"This information does provide another good example of what I was trying to illustrate to Louis Booth, however. "

*sigh* Hey saru...I think you are missing a baby..you threw it out with the bathwater.

I missed nothing, Louis.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Shane Roach

A more simple question would be to ask if you Sauron truly would prefer to live in an Islaamic nation, or would prefer to stay here?

I would prefer to stay here, because my family and life are here.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am an American, and a Westerner.&nbsp;

But if you asked someone from that region if they preferred their own lives in Lebanon, to life in the USA, they would almost certainly say they preferred their own life, in the Arab society.

Not sure what you thought you could prove by this question......

Do you not see the obvious superiority of nations that have evolved out of the Judeo-Christian ethical systems?

Hmm.&nbsp; What particular nice things about our nations are you attributing to the judeo-christian ethical system?

And how did you establish that they don't exist in other ethical systems?

And pardon my ignorance but this Sura that Louis Booth is quoting, is this another Hadith or is he quoting the Koran now?

He correctly quoted one sura, and butchered a second one.&nbsp; But as I indicated, both suras were historical and conditional, and concerned specific early events in the birth and infancy of the Islamic community.

And finally, what if anything does any of this mean as to whether or not we as Christians worship the same "god" so to speak as the Muslims? It seems to me if we worship Christ and they don't that it is clear we are worshiping a different God.

Hmm.&nbsp; Based upon your argument, then the next question is "do you consider Christ to be God?"&nbsp;

If "no,"&nbsp;then you are correct:&nbsp; you're worshipping&nbsp;someone different from the Muslims.

If "yes", then you're worshipping the same deity.

Perhaps the Jews and Muslims worship the same. Odd that the Catholics apparently insist it is the same. This seems to be more of a political posture than anything else.

Perhaps.

 

[Zico]

People really should understand what they were programmed to hate.

Allah yebarek feek ya Sauron.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The problem with your websites is that they are all christian sites with an agenda to bash islam. They're biased, period. "

Okay, then give me a site that's not biased either way. Until then my cites stand as evidence.

*side note*

"People really should understand what they were programmed to hate.
"

Z- I acutally considered Islam once. I'm not programed to hate anything thanks. I looked into it and researched it and found it to be hateful at the core. Condoned murder just didn't suit me.

"How does that satisfy the condition to find an unbiased source?"

So you think ALL unbiased sources speak for it? LOL. You're showing your own bias and your lack of knowledge of what real evidence is.

"If I were a non-believer looking for information about christianity, you would tell me to go to the bible and/or a christian website"

No, I'd say read the bible. that's where Islam will always go wrong too. The Koran (westernized spelling) teaches its okay to murder.

"Wrong. As you should well know - I provided several verses that illustrate this principle. In addition, your stupid claim above is not supported by sharia (Islamic) law. "

*sigh* yes, it does. I'd love to see a place where you show that Islam is a nonviolent religion when muhammad himself killed thousands of people. Jesus didn't kill anyone did he?

"I have read it, Louis. In the original Arabic. You should try it. Oh, that's right - you can't.

And even if you had a copy in English, you wouldn't read it, either. All you would do is skim it for juicy, out-of-context quotes and then pretend you understood what it said. "

Whatever saur. I've read it. I've read a commentary on it. Just because you don't like what I say, don't resort to no you didn't childish remarks okay? I know I have to read arabic to read the 'real' thing. thats why I got a commentary after I read it.


"These were specific instructions for specific historical incidents; they are not intended as general inwstructions for all time. "

1. not in the context of the passage

"Your claim is incorrect and uneducated, and I therefore dismiss it.
"

*chuckles* you're the one that's not educated here bro. I think you need to go back and read it a couple of more times. You can dismiss all you want, it doesn't make it any less true. Islam says its okay to murder.

"Thanks for proving my point. "

If your point is that Islam condones murder, then you're welcome because that is exactly what I have proven.

"But if you asked someone from that region if they preferred their own lives in Lebanon, to life in the USA, they would almost certainly say they preferred their own life, in the Arab society. "

*chuckles* not according to most people I've heard from, but whatever you say.

Saur, to sum up, I'm not going to trust your OPINION on the Koran. You've proven to me and many others you are often wrong and refuse to admit it even when confronted with evidence. That's okay, you're entitled to do that, just don't expect me to "take your word for it". If you get me a book or commentary I'll check it out. Until then, sorry, you're wrong.