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Is all the Bible scripture?
- Thread starter Thunderchild
- Start date
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Hervey,
You miss my point. There was or there was not more than two persons crucified on that day. Those that are named are pertinent. The others are not. Did Tom Sawyer have any other friends than Huck? Probably, but did that matter? To focus on the minutia to often leads to the determination of intent. Are we to determin now the proper intent of the author. The words penned were inspired, and motivated by the Lord Himself, and I lend no less credence to any jot or tittle. But to demand concession on a matter of no eternal consequence (i say that in my own temporal ignorance) seems rather "ludicrous" to me. What is important is the action of the cross, not the bystanders. Was Jesus act of redemtion less valid because we want to say:
"Hey! There were more than two, so the rest of you are lame."
H*** no (pardon my french)
My point is God inspired the hand of man in the creation of our blueprint for a sanctified existence. Is He not responsible for it's preservation? From "in the begining" to "for ever and ever Amen". Did God disallow for the character of the individual authors? Again no. It's still His doing. He picked them! To believe that man in all his ignorance can undo what He has done is the heighth of arogance.
Yes filosofer, we aproach the Bible often the same as we aproach any other literary work, but we can not forget that His word is living and to excomunicate the spirit from our search for understanding is to leave out the very thing that makes it an active part of our relationship with its originator.
You miss my point. There was or there was not more than two persons crucified on that day. Those that are named are pertinent. The others are not. Did Tom Sawyer have any other friends than Huck? Probably, but did that matter? To focus on the minutia to often leads to the determination of intent. Are we to determin now the proper intent of the author. The words penned were inspired, and motivated by the Lord Himself, and I lend no less credence to any jot or tittle. But to demand concession on a matter of no eternal consequence (i say that in my own temporal ignorance) seems rather "ludicrous" to me. What is important is the action of the cross, not the bystanders. Was Jesus act of redemtion less valid because we want to say:
"Hey! There were more than two, so the rest of you are lame."
H*** no (pardon my french)
My point is God inspired the hand of man in the creation of our blueprint for a sanctified existence. Is He not responsible for it's preservation? From "in the begining" to "for ever and ever Amen". Did God disallow for the character of the individual authors? Again no. It's still His doing. He picked them! To believe that man in all his ignorance can undo what He has done is the heighth of arogance.
Yes filosofer, we aproach the Bible often the same as we aproach any other literary work, but we can not forget that His word is living and to excomunicate the spirit from our search for understanding is to leave out the very thing that makes it an active part of our relationship with its originator.
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That's why I made both points: the Word is like any other writing, yet is unlike any other writing. And that is because it is the Spirit-activated Word (1 Thes. 2:13, etc.)
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Thunder child, if you have found and error or contradiction in the KJV why won't you post it? ED
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Compare your favorite 'bible' with these verses to see if your 'bible' is truly 100% the Word of God. These verses are only a few of the 'biggies' that the scholars go after. If your verses do not match the verses as listed here, may I suggest you consider opening your eyes to the biggest deception that has taken place with God's people since Eve was deceived by the Devil . These verses were taken from a King James 1611 Bible - and we do all know that things that are different are not the same, don't we? Why the sudden need for these changes to be made? There is no need!
How can all those different Bibles be the same 'Word of God'?
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
I Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
II Corinthians 2:17 : For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
I Timothy 3:16 : And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
I Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
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Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. Amos 8:11,12
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Compare your favorite 'bible' with these verses to see if your 'bible' is truly 100% the Word of God. These verses are only a few of the 'biggies' that the scholars go after. If your verses do not match the verses as listed here, may I suggest you consider opening your eyes to the biggest deception that has taken place with God's people since Eve was deceived by the Devil . These verses were taken from a King James 1611 Bible - and we do all know that things that are different are not the same, don't we? Why the sudden need for these changes to be made? There is no need!
How can all those different Bibles be the same 'Word of God'?
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
I Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
II Corinthians 2:17 : For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
I Timothy 3:16 : And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
I Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
II Timothy 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
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Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. Amos 8:11,12
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Just curious, which manuscripts did the KJV translators follow in this verse? The main issue is: does the original Greek text read: "Joseph and his mother" or "His father and mother"?
Well, let's check the manuscript evidence. (Unfortunately we cannot write Greek and superscripts here, so I will have to write out some of the notations)
1. hO PATER AUTOU KAI hH MATHR
Literal translation: "the father of him and the mother"
Sinaiticus (1st corrector), Vaticanus, D, W, f(1)[=1, 118, 131, 209], 700, 1241, italia(4th corrector), georgian (2), Origen (Greek, Latin), Jerome, Augustine
2. hO PATHR AUTOU KAI hH MATHR AUTOU (difference is addition of "his" after mother)
Literal translation: "the father of him and the mother of him"
Sinaiticus (original), L, syriac(1st corrector), coptic (sahidic, boharic), armenian (omits first AUTOU), georgian (1st corrector), Cyril
3. IWSEF KAI hH MHTHR AUTOU
Literal translation: "Joseph and the mother of him"
K, X, Delta, Theta, (A, Pi, Psi, add definite article hO before Joseph), 053, f(13)[=13, 69, 124, 174, 230, 346, 543, 788, 826, 828, 983, 1689], 28, 565, 892, 1009, 1010, 1071, 1079, 1195, 1216, 1230, 1242, 1253, 1344, 1365, 1546, 1646, 2148, 2174, Byzantium (majority), Lectionary (majority of Meologion), it(Vercellensis, Aureus, Veronensis, Carinthianum, Colbertinus, Palatinus, Brixianus, Corbeiensis II, Rehdigeranus, Monacensis, Usserianus I), Syriac (Pe****ta, Harclean, Palestinian [many], coptic (many boharic), gothic, Diatessaron of Tatian (Arabic, Old Dutch, Tuscan).
4. IWSEF hO PATHR AUTOU KAI hH MHTHR AUTOU
Literal translation: "Joseph the father of him and the mother of him"
157, ethiopic
5. IWSEF KAI hH MHTHR
Literal translation: "Joseph and the mother"
33
6. hOI GONEIS AUTOU
Literal translation: "the parents of him"
vulgate (a few)
7. hO PATHR AUTOU
Literal translation: "the father of him"
syriac (Harclean, marginal reading)
8. IWSEF
Literal translation: "Joseph"
syriac (Palestinian, some)
So, now based on this limited listing, which is the closest to "original" reading? And just as important: why is that the closest?
I hope you can see that it is not a simple case of claiming that "the KJV/TR is the original text," because there are at least 10 variant readings. No one made this up - this is the reality of textual criticism.
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According to the author, the daughter of Jairus was dead. That is clear enough, Apologist - he states that the people gathered KNEW that she was dead. If there had been any doubt in the author's mind regarding the matter - he would have used the word "believed" rather than "knew."
However, the same author in the same passage says that Jesus claimed she was not dead - that she was asleep (in a coma).
Points to take into account - Jesus found it necessary to hurry...when Lazarus died, Jesus did not consider any rush to be warranted. His words "there is little time" in the case of Jairus's daughter indicate that she was close to death, not that she was dead.
When Lazarus died Jesus did not deny the fact that he was dead. Why would he be willing to make himself a laughing-stock in the case of Jairus's daughter - the people "knew" she was dead anyway - there was no point in giving them false hope, particularly when you consider that he was about to "resurrect" her anyway.
The author claimed that she was dead, and claimed that Jesus said she wasn't - the author directly contradicted Jesus's own words - and that in the self same passage.
However, the same author in the same passage says that Jesus claimed she was not dead - that she was asleep (in a coma).
Points to take into account - Jesus found it necessary to hurry...when Lazarus died, Jesus did not consider any rush to be warranted. His words "there is little time" in the case of Jairus's daughter indicate that she was close to death, not that she was dead.
When Lazarus died Jesus did not deny the fact that he was dead. Why would he be willing to make himself a laughing-stock in the case of Jairus's daughter - the people "knew" she was dead anyway - there was no point in giving them false hope, particularly when you consider that he was about to "resurrect" her anyway.
The author claimed that she was dead, and claimed that Jesus said she wasn't - the author directly contradicted Jesus's own words - and that in the self same passage.
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That's odd. I spent a lot of time last night typing up a detailed explanation of a given text in the AKJV which is a mis-translation. I wonder where it got to.
Not that it would matter to some, who consider that if the textus receptus or any other manuscripts don't agree with the AKJV, it is the originals which are faulty, not the AV... but there are a few who might be amenable to accepting the facts, so I'll try again.
Act 17 : 22 - 23 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
In this passage the word "deisidaimon" is translated "too superstitious" but a check of both Young's and Strong's concordances shows the meaning to be "extremely devout" - though Strong's does note that the word is rendered as "too superstitious" in the translation, as a negative.
This was just about the first passage that forced me to examine the Greek texts - for simple cause that the grammar of the passage is completely up the wattle. The first sentence condemnatory, the second actually showing approval - for the same actions. The rules of English grammar do not allow for that passage to exist.
Why was "extremely pious" (or more literally, "godfearing") translated as "too superstitious"? It wouldn't be that a pagan could actually be approved of for something now, could it?
Not that it would matter to some, who consider that if the textus receptus or any other manuscripts don't agree with the AKJV, it is the originals which are faulty, not the AV... but there are a few who might be amenable to accepting the facts, so I'll try again.
Act 17 : 22 - 23 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
In this passage the word "deisidaimon" is translated "too superstitious" but a check of both Young's and Strong's concordances shows the meaning to be "extremely devout" - though Strong's does note that the word is rendered as "too superstitious" in the translation, as a negative.
This was just about the first passage that forced me to examine the Greek texts - for simple cause that the grammar of the passage is completely up the wattle. The first sentence condemnatory, the second actually showing approval - for the same actions. The rules of English grammar do not allow for that passage to exist.
Why was "extremely pious" (or more literally, "godfearing") translated as "too superstitious"? It wouldn't be that a pagan could actually be approved of for something now, could it?
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I believe the original autographs were inspired. God made available a blank piece of paper (vellum, papyrus, etc.) and used sinful men like Moses, David, Solomon, Peter, Paul, etc. to write His words. And I believe you believe this also, however, I go one step further than you. I also believe in the preservation of those words already written and God using men to preserve them, and I have them in the English language, Scriptures. Both inspiration and preservation are actions by God and we are assured by God as stated in Psalm 12:6,7 and are found ONLY in the KJV1611 Bible.
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tired in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
I am very interested as to how a person would answer these questions if they do NOT believe that the KJV or any single version would be considered the inspired and preserved words of God and also called the Word of God.
Can anyone answer these questions?
1. Why would God inspire the originals and then not preserve them as promised -
(note: I am talking about the words, not the papers, pieces, etc?)
2. If you claim God has allowed some errors in the Bible today,
why do you not afford Him for making some errors in the originals?
3. Isn't the kind of faith you have "convenient" since it cannot be tested?
After all, since all the perfect set of originals are LOST or either DESTROYED,
you can rest safely in the fact that you can be challenged,
but you will never be proven wrong
since the EVIDENCE needed to prove you wrong (the "lost originals") is lost.
4. Are you afraid to dare put the same faith in a Bible available today?
5. Isn't it a fact that to believe in a perfect set of originals,
but not believe in a perfect English Bible, is to believe NOTHING at all?
6. To enforce a "convenient faith," would you go so far as to say, as others have said,
that what God actually meant in Ps. 119:89 is that He preserved His perfect Bible
in a library up in Heaven, and not on earth?
7. If this is true, then didn't God write a book to Himself, and not to man?
8. What is Scripture?
9. WHO taught you the King James Bible is not the word of God?
10. If "Scripture(s)" refers to the "original manuscripts,"
then wasn't Jesus really being deceptive to His listeners?
(Matt. 21:42; 22:29; Mk. 12:10,24; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 2:22; 7:38, 42; 19:37; 20:9 etc.)
11. If you claim the King James has errors, then I would have to conclude
the King James Bible is not the inerrant Bible.
What is?
The NASV? The NKJV? The LB? The NEB? The ASV? The JB?
The NAB? The NWT, etc. etc. etc.?
12. Since most Bible colleges and insitutes believe only the originals are inspired,
aren't they really teaching a form of Deism?
I am not interested in arguing with you, but I am interested in reading your silly answers.
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tired in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
I am very interested as to how a person would answer these questions if they do NOT believe that the KJV or any single version would be considered the inspired and preserved words of God and also called the Word of God.
Can anyone answer these questions?
1. Why would God inspire the originals and then not preserve them as promised -
(note: I am talking about the words, not the papers, pieces, etc?)
2. If you claim God has allowed some errors in the Bible today,
why do you not afford Him for making some errors in the originals?
3. Isn't the kind of faith you have "convenient" since it cannot be tested?
After all, since all the perfect set of originals are LOST or either DESTROYED,
you can rest safely in the fact that you can be challenged,
but you will never be proven wrong
since the EVIDENCE needed to prove you wrong (the "lost originals") is lost.
4. Are you afraid to dare put the same faith in a Bible available today?
5. Isn't it a fact that to believe in a perfect set of originals,
but not believe in a perfect English Bible, is to believe NOTHING at all?
6. To enforce a "convenient faith," would you go so far as to say, as others have said,
that what God actually meant in Ps. 119:89 is that He preserved His perfect Bible
in a library up in Heaven, and not on earth?
7. If this is true, then didn't God write a book to Himself, and not to man?
8. What is Scripture?
9. WHO taught you the King James Bible is not the word of God?
10. If "Scripture(s)" refers to the "original manuscripts,"
then wasn't Jesus really being deceptive to His listeners?
(Matt. 21:42; 22:29; Mk. 12:10,24; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 2:22; 7:38, 42; 19:37; 20:9 etc.)
11. If you claim the King James has errors, then I would have to conclude
the King James Bible is not the inerrant Bible.
What is?
The NASV? The NKJV? The LB? The NEB? The ASV? The JB?
The NAB? The NWT, etc. etc. etc.?
12. Since most Bible colleges and insitutes believe only the originals are inspired,
aren't they really teaching a form of Deism?
I am not interested in arguing with you, but I am interested in reading your silly answers.
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Hi Ed:
God did not use men to preserve His Word. God is the one who preserves His own Word, and does not need men to do that for him !
God's Word is perfect, but our translations are not perfect !
The Greek manuscripts are not perfect , from which your translations came from !
God did not preserve His Word in "any" translation !
His Word is preserved in 'our' hearts ! If your heart goes up against the will of God, that is planted in your heart, then your walking in death, when your heart goes up against its own heart !
God put his commandments in our hearts.
We read to study and get a greater understanding, but that understanding in already in our hearts ! The written Word confirms that, which is already in our hearts !
Love IN Christ - Hervey
God did not use men to preserve His Word. God is the one who preserves His own Word, and does not need men to do that for him !
God's Word is perfect, but our translations are not perfect !
The Greek manuscripts are not perfect , from which your translations came from !
God did not preserve His Word in "any" translation !
His Word is preserved in 'our' hearts ! If your heart goes up against the will of God, that is planted in your heart, then your walking in death, when your heart goes up against its own heart !
God put his commandments in our hearts.
We read to study and get a greater understanding, but that understanding in already in our hearts ! The written Word confirms that, which is already in our hearts !
Love IN Christ - Hervey
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lig75
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Hervey, that is more like it... Some are wanting to write their own Bibles. What we need most to understand is the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and rightly dividing the Word of Truth, and the Word in our hearts. Each of the four Gospels written by 4 different ones, are not written identical but same meaning. Some split hairs just on that. Doubting Thomas would not believe until he saw and felt the nail holes. Today we have them doubting the Word of God, wanting it their own way... In HIM, Gil. I love the KJV the best, but I like some of the other versions such as modern English.
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lig75
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- Jan 5, 2002
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AT EASE IN ZION (A WHITE-WASHED MESSAGE)
given by Gil Sheridan, (Troop), done on the internet forum.
Brethren I am your new pastor, and hope you all will get blessed. What is your pleasure that I preach on? I preach a loving God and Savior, for in our Bibles it tells us that GOD IS LOVE. The 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians tells us that love is the greatest of many things.
I see a hand in the back. Preach but don't preach about hell, just preach love, is that what you said? Yes, well you have got the right pastor and I should be here a long time for that is my calling, to preach love and to please the congregation of our church. I am not a hell fire preacher so you all should be real comfortable with me.
Let me say right here, that a loving Savior saved us and a loving Savior will not put any one in hell. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, it was not made for us, definitely not. Every one who says they Believe in God will be in Heaven some sweet day, we will all be hugging one another showing our love every day.
I have heard there was one hell fire preaching preacher calling himself TROOP that many of you got pretty upset with, and he hurt many of your feelings, upsetting some of your sleep at night, giving you nightmares about hell. Well you can pass this along to TROOP because we make our hell if we choose, and Troop made his already. We are making a Heaven on earth and it will be eternal, and no one has to be scared with hell fire preaching. Yes I know the Troop said we should be bold with faith in God through Jesus. I say to you that we do not need anything but to stay in this sweet love and peaceful messages.
Many, I hear, tried to give Troop advice on toning down his messages of calling names and the danger of hell fire. Troop called them whoremongers, reprobates, hypocrites, satanic, effeminate, murderers, cowards, wimps etc etc. and those words did not help you feel good, or good about yourselves. That kind of preaching was not lifting you into ectacy, but I hope to God my love preaching and no hell fire and strong words will heal you of your unrest to your soul, stop the nightmares and give you real peaceful comfort and you can sleep good agan.
Amen, Amen went the congregation. Preach love preacher preach love...
Yes, and I say unto you Brethren, the ones like Troop who offend you are not nice. Oh yes, I've heard Troop use the excuse that he grew up in a tough spot, that he also went in the Seabees at 17 and the training was tough, they taught him how to defend himself, how to kill in many ways, how to survive in all kinds of situations, and he uses that as an example to show how we can become a soldier for the Lord with boldness and faith, how we have an armor from the Lord we should wear to fight the devil, so we are protected. Troop is teaching violence, not love as I do.
We can see why all those accusing Troop and his kind of being mean are right, and all who agree that he and that kind are just plain mean nasty sinners themselves. The Troop told of some of his experiences, miracles of the Lord saving his life, as a Seabee, as a Paratrooper etc. and how the training was rough and dangerous, much less the hard fighting his comrades did, many losing their life, and now their bodies resting on foreign soil. Troop told us those stories in self pity.
I also heard that Troop was confined to a wheelchair in 1956 and has not been able to walk or even sit up long without a body brace. Yet he is attacked by a lot of you and others, and others take up for you in these attacks on him. Well ordinarily it would not be nice to slander an old crippled war veteran like Troop, but Troop is mean and a hell-fire preacher and deserves it, to be called a liar and to throw his sermon back at him. Yes and not only is he mean and a liar, but begs for donations to spread the hell fire. And when you call him all the bad things he is, and he says its good you didn't say that to his face long ago when he wasn't a man of God, that you would go away with less teeth, a broken arm or neck...that is no way for a man of God to talk. You poor dears, I hope I can make it up to you and repair the breach...keep in this love and not let it go or bad preachers enter in again.
So many now are trying to tell us about Hell, they say because they love us and don't want us to go there. They say God loved them so much to keep them from going to Hell, that He sent His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, who knew no sin to become our sins and be tortured, mocked and nailed to a cross and die a horrible death for you and me.
And Brethren those hell fire preachers say its LOVE, and they say they love us while calling us hypocrites, and the other vile names. They tell us of the fiery furnace the three Hebrews were thrown into because they wouldn't kneel to the false gods when the sound of the trumpet blew. Well good loving brethren the three Hebrews were wrong not to recognize the other religions, and be tolerable. They would not be good Americans who are supposed to believe in other religions and believe all of them were just as good as the other. And then they say that the Son of God was seen with the Hebrews in that very hot fire. Those hell fire preachers say God saved them because they stayed faithful to God even when ordered by their king not to.
But I tell you as a loving soul, the reason the Lord saved them was to give them another chance to be more tolerable of the king and of other religions...to keep silence about Christianity as not to offend the others, to let the others know their religion is as good and will get them into Heaven also. Yes and take out UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance, afterall that is offensive to other countries. Be more tolerable of the Osama Bin Ladens, and don't snoop on the muslims living here. If they conspire and bomb another building, neuclear power plant then it will be appropriate to snoop. And they are going to Heaven too, so be nice to all, even Osama and give him a chance, a fair trial...I as you love preacher ask you to do these lovey things. Do them in the name of ONE GOD, and not a Holy Trinity.
-------------------------------------------------
Troop and his kind are saying that Jesus speaks of a real literal hell in detail for all who reject Him, because He loves them. Troop says he tells about it because he also loves us, and the vile words because that was what some he preached to were and was what Jesus called them, and that too he says because he loved us and because Jesus loved us and wanted us to repent and turn around, become a new creature in Him and all these vile names would never fit them again, nor would the mention of HELL ever frighten them or make them curse the Hell fire preachers again, nor worship any other God besides Him, and to obey God rather than man...and to be brave, strong in the Lord's might, and not worry what man can do but our loving almighty God, through His Son who makes intercession for us... and who was made sin for us who knew no sin, and died for us, and again the third day arose victorious over death, hell and the grave. HE went to hell and actully won the victory over it, for you and for me...and now this last part was the real Troop talking...Love ya
given by Gil Sheridan, (Troop), done on the internet forum.
Brethren I am your new pastor, and hope you all will get blessed. What is your pleasure that I preach on? I preach a loving God and Savior, for in our Bibles it tells us that GOD IS LOVE. The 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians tells us that love is the greatest of many things.
I see a hand in the back. Preach but don't preach about hell, just preach love, is that what you said? Yes, well you have got the right pastor and I should be here a long time for that is my calling, to preach love and to please the congregation of our church. I am not a hell fire preacher so you all should be real comfortable with me.
Let me say right here, that a loving Savior saved us and a loving Savior will not put any one in hell. Hell was made for the devil and his angels, it was not made for us, definitely not. Every one who says they Believe in God will be in Heaven some sweet day, we will all be hugging one another showing our love every day.
I have heard there was one hell fire preaching preacher calling himself TROOP that many of you got pretty upset with, and he hurt many of your feelings, upsetting some of your sleep at night, giving you nightmares about hell. Well you can pass this along to TROOP because we make our hell if we choose, and Troop made his already. We are making a Heaven on earth and it will be eternal, and no one has to be scared with hell fire preaching. Yes I know the Troop said we should be bold with faith in God through Jesus. I say to you that we do not need anything but to stay in this sweet love and peaceful messages.
Many, I hear, tried to give Troop advice on toning down his messages of calling names and the danger of hell fire. Troop called them whoremongers, reprobates, hypocrites, satanic, effeminate, murderers, cowards, wimps etc etc. and those words did not help you feel good, or good about yourselves. That kind of preaching was not lifting you into ectacy, but I hope to God my love preaching and no hell fire and strong words will heal you of your unrest to your soul, stop the nightmares and give you real peaceful comfort and you can sleep good agan.
Amen, Amen went the congregation. Preach love preacher preach love...
Yes, and I say unto you Brethren, the ones like Troop who offend you are not nice. Oh yes, I've heard Troop use the excuse that he grew up in a tough spot, that he also went in the Seabees at 17 and the training was tough, they taught him how to defend himself, how to kill in many ways, how to survive in all kinds of situations, and he uses that as an example to show how we can become a soldier for the Lord with boldness and faith, how we have an armor from the Lord we should wear to fight the devil, so we are protected. Troop is teaching violence, not love as I do.
We can see why all those accusing Troop and his kind of being mean are right, and all who agree that he and that kind are just plain mean nasty sinners themselves. The Troop told of some of his experiences, miracles of the Lord saving his life, as a Seabee, as a Paratrooper etc. and how the training was rough and dangerous, much less the hard fighting his comrades did, many losing their life, and now their bodies resting on foreign soil. Troop told us those stories in self pity.
I also heard that Troop was confined to a wheelchair in 1956 and has not been able to walk or even sit up long without a body brace. Yet he is attacked by a lot of you and others, and others take up for you in these attacks on him. Well ordinarily it would not be nice to slander an old crippled war veteran like Troop, but Troop is mean and a hell-fire preacher and deserves it, to be called a liar and to throw his sermon back at him. Yes and not only is he mean and a liar, but begs for donations to spread the hell fire. And when you call him all the bad things he is, and he says its good you didn't say that to his face long ago when he wasn't a man of God, that you would go away with less teeth, a broken arm or neck...that is no way for a man of God to talk. You poor dears, I hope I can make it up to you and repair the breach...keep in this love and not let it go or bad preachers enter in again.
So many now are trying to tell us about Hell, they say because they love us and don't want us to go there. They say God loved them so much to keep them from going to Hell, that He sent His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, who knew no sin to become our sins and be tortured, mocked and nailed to a cross and die a horrible death for you and me.
And Brethren those hell fire preachers say its LOVE, and they say they love us while calling us hypocrites, and the other vile names. They tell us of the fiery furnace the three Hebrews were thrown into because they wouldn't kneel to the false gods when the sound of the trumpet blew. Well good loving brethren the three Hebrews were wrong not to recognize the other religions, and be tolerable. They would not be good Americans who are supposed to believe in other religions and believe all of them were just as good as the other. And then they say that the Son of God was seen with the Hebrews in that very hot fire. Those hell fire preachers say God saved them because they stayed faithful to God even when ordered by their king not to.
But I tell you as a loving soul, the reason the Lord saved them was to give them another chance to be more tolerable of the king and of other religions...to keep silence about Christianity as not to offend the others, to let the others know their religion is as good and will get them into Heaven also. Yes and take out UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance, afterall that is offensive to other countries. Be more tolerable of the Osama Bin Ladens, and don't snoop on the muslims living here. If they conspire and bomb another building, neuclear power plant then it will be appropriate to snoop. And they are going to Heaven too, so be nice to all, even Osama and give him a chance, a fair trial...I as you love preacher ask you to do these lovey things. Do them in the name of ONE GOD, and not a Holy Trinity.
-------------------------------------------------
Troop and his kind are saying that Jesus speaks of a real literal hell in detail for all who reject Him, because He loves them. Troop says he tells about it because he also loves us, and the vile words because that was what some he preached to were and was what Jesus called them, and that too he says because he loved us and because Jesus loved us and wanted us to repent and turn around, become a new creature in Him and all these vile names would never fit them again, nor would the mention of HELL ever frighten them or make them curse the Hell fire preachers again, nor worship any other God besides Him, and to obey God rather than man...and to be brave, strong in the Lord's might, and not worry what man can do but our loving almighty God, through His Son who makes intercession for us... and who was made sin for us who knew no sin, and died for us, and again the third day arose victorious over death, hell and the grave. HE went to hell and actully won the victory over it, for you and for me...and now this last part was the real Troop talking...Love ya
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The original autographs were inspired. The King James Bible is those same autographs preserved up to today.
The best way to simply describe inspiration and preservation of the Bible is as follows:
Inspiration is when God takes a blank piece of paper (papyrus, vellum, etc.) and uses men to write His words.
Preservation is when God takes those words already written and uses men to preserve them to today.
Both of these actions are DIVINE and are assured by God as recorded in Psalm 12:6, 7.
6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, 0 LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
In Psalm 12:6 God assures us that His originals are perfect. Even though penned by fallible men with the heinous sins of; murder (Moses and David), adultery (David), idolatry (Solomon), and denial of the lord (Peter), God's words are untainted by the sins of the penmen.
That the originals were inspired perfect in their entirety is an undisputed belief among fundamentalists today.
But most fundamentalists argue that only the "originals were perfect. They say that today we have nothing but copies and translations of those copies. They seem indignant at the thought that any "mere translation" should be considered a perfect copy of the originals. They claim that copies and translations are products of uninspired men and therefore must all contain mistakes.
Fundamentalists clinging to this tenet are mislead. Their folly in accepting this erroneous teaching is fourfold.
1. It is somewhat confusing and unexplainable that a person could claim that God could not use, sinful men to preserve His words when all fundamentalists believe that he used sinful men to write His inspired words. Certainly a God who had enough power to inspire His words would also have enough power to preserve them. I highly doubt that He has lost such ability over the years.
2. Why would God inspire the originals and then lose them? Why give a perfect Bible to men like Peter, John, James, Andrew and company and not us? They had seen, heard, and touched the Lord (I John 1:1). We haven't! If anyone ever needed a perfect Bible it is us, nearly two thousand years separated from a Saviour we have never seen!
Why did God inspire a perfect original if He didn't plan on preserving it? Couldn't He have afforded some error, in His originals just as some believe He has allowed some errors in today's Bible! Or do critics of God's perfect Bible believe that God was unable to prevent errors in the copies. It would seem like only half of a God who had the power to do one but not the other.
3. It is a "convenient" faith which cannot be tested. In other words, it is rather safe to believe in a perfect set of originals which have been LOST. Since they are lost, no one can ever practically challenge such a belief. Adherents to such a shallow persuasion can rest safely in the fact that they will never be proven wrong since the evidence needed to prove them wrong (the "originals") is lost.
But if they dare put the same faith in a Bible available today, they know that they will definitely be bloodied defending their faith.
Thus, to believe in a perfect set of originals, but not to believe in a perfect English Bible, is to believe nothing at all.
4. Regardless of their arguments against the doctrine of a preserved perfect Bible, such a fact as much guaranteed by Scripture as the bodily return of Jesus Christ (Acts 1:8).
Psalm 12:7 plainly states, thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
Thus we have God promising to preserve the same words that He inspired. Not too much of a feat to overwhelm such an omnipotent Being.
The fearful fundamentalist launches two attacks on the Scriptural teaching found in Psalm 12:7.
1. They claim, "Verse 7 is talking about the Jews, not the Bible." Then to add credence to their claim they rush out and publish a translation that says just that in Psalm 12:7. Let's look at this verse in the New International Version.
"O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever."
This is an irresponsible and dishonest translation. The Hebrew word "shamar" meaning "to keep" which the New International Version translators render "you will keep us" is found in the future second person singular "thou shalt keep" and is directed to the THIRD person plural "them" and NOT the first person plural "us" as the New International Version translators rendered it. Thus we see it is the King James, Gods perfect, preserved Bible which has accurately preserved the reading of the originals, not the unreliable New International Version.
Psalm 12:7 is not God's promise to preserve the Jews, a promise which flourishes elsewhere in Scripture. It is Gods promise to preserve His words, and is a direct reference to those words as described in Psalm 12:6.
2. Oftimes a Christian, whose faith is too weak to accept the literal truth of Psalm 12:6, 7, will piously quote Psalm 119:89.
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Then they will state that God actually meant that He preserved His perfect Bible in Heaven, not on Earth. And they say this with a straight face! This escape to a house of straw is embarrassingly humorous.
First, it is foolish for anyone to believe that God inspired a perfect original on earth so that He could have it brought to Heaven. Is that supposed to be the reason that He wrote the originals? The answer is embarrassingly simple. The Bible is addressed to man, not God. God did not write a perfect book directed to man and then put it in a library in Heaven where man cannot benefit from its existence. Again we ask, "What good to us, here and now, is a perfect book locked up out of reach in Heaven?"
Secondly, Psalm 12:6 makes reference to His words being on earth. To preserve them somewhere other than on earth is not to preserve them at all. So we see then that God inspired the originals perfectly. Then over the centuries He has preserved those same word today. They are found in the Authorized Version.
ADDITIONAL NOTE:
In the area of "inspired translations" it might be noted that the double truth of Genesis 22:8 which in a King James Bible is plainly revealed as a prophetic reference to Jesus Christ, is lost in such weak translations as the New King James, the New International Version, and the New American Standard Version.
The best way to simply describe inspiration and preservation of the Bible is as follows:
Inspiration is when God takes a blank piece of paper (papyrus, vellum, etc.) and uses men to write His words.
Preservation is when God takes those words already written and uses men to preserve them to today.
Both of these actions are DIVINE and are assured by God as recorded in Psalm 12:6, 7.
6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, 0 LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
In Psalm 12:6 God assures us that His originals are perfect. Even though penned by fallible men with the heinous sins of; murder (Moses and David), adultery (David), idolatry (Solomon), and denial of the lord (Peter), God's words are untainted by the sins of the penmen.
That the originals were inspired perfect in their entirety is an undisputed belief among fundamentalists today.
But most fundamentalists argue that only the "originals were perfect. They say that today we have nothing but copies and translations of those copies. They seem indignant at the thought that any "mere translation" should be considered a perfect copy of the originals. They claim that copies and translations are products of uninspired men and therefore must all contain mistakes.
Fundamentalists clinging to this tenet are mislead. Their folly in accepting this erroneous teaching is fourfold.
1. It is somewhat confusing and unexplainable that a person could claim that God could not use, sinful men to preserve His words when all fundamentalists believe that he used sinful men to write His inspired words. Certainly a God who had enough power to inspire His words would also have enough power to preserve them. I highly doubt that He has lost such ability over the years.
2. Why would God inspire the originals and then lose them? Why give a perfect Bible to men like Peter, John, James, Andrew and company and not us? They had seen, heard, and touched the Lord (I John 1:1). We haven't! If anyone ever needed a perfect Bible it is us, nearly two thousand years separated from a Saviour we have never seen!
Why did God inspire a perfect original if He didn't plan on preserving it? Couldn't He have afforded some error, in His originals just as some believe He has allowed some errors in today's Bible! Or do critics of God's perfect Bible believe that God was unable to prevent errors in the copies. It would seem like only half of a God who had the power to do one but not the other.
3. It is a "convenient" faith which cannot be tested. In other words, it is rather safe to believe in a perfect set of originals which have been LOST. Since they are lost, no one can ever practically challenge such a belief. Adherents to such a shallow persuasion can rest safely in the fact that they will never be proven wrong since the evidence needed to prove them wrong (the "originals") is lost.
But if they dare put the same faith in a Bible available today, they know that they will definitely be bloodied defending their faith.
Thus, to believe in a perfect set of originals, but not to believe in a perfect English Bible, is to believe nothing at all.
4. Regardless of their arguments against the doctrine of a preserved perfect Bible, such a fact as much guaranteed by Scripture as the bodily return of Jesus Christ (Acts 1:8).
Psalm 12:7 plainly states, thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
Thus we have God promising to preserve the same words that He inspired. Not too much of a feat to overwhelm such an omnipotent Being.
The fearful fundamentalist launches two attacks on the Scriptural teaching found in Psalm 12:7.
1. They claim, "Verse 7 is talking about the Jews, not the Bible." Then to add credence to their claim they rush out and publish a translation that says just that in Psalm 12:7. Let's look at this verse in the New International Version.
"O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever."
This is an irresponsible and dishonest translation. The Hebrew word "shamar" meaning "to keep" which the New International Version translators render "you will keep us" is found in the future second person singular "thou shalt keep" and is directed to the THIRD person plural "them" and NOT the first person plural "us" as the New International Version translators rendered it. Thus we see it is the King James, Gods perfect, preserved Bible which has accurately preserved the reading of the originals, not the unreliable New International Version.
Psalm 12:7 is not God's promise to preserve the Jews, a promise which flourishes elsewhere in Scripture. It is Gods promise to preserve His words, and is a direct reference to those words as described in Psalm 12:6.
2. Oftimes a Christian, whose faith is too weak to accept the literal truth of Psalm 12:6, 7, will piously quote Psalm 119:89.
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Then they will state that God actually meant that He preserved His perfect Bible in Heaven, not on Earth. And they say this with a straight face! This escape to a house of straw is embarrassingly humorous.
First, it is foolish for anyone to believe that God inspired a perfect original on earth so that He could have it brought to Heaven. Is that supposed to be the reason that He wrote the originals? The answer is embarrassingly simple. The Bible is addressed to man, not God. God did not write a perfect book directed to man and then put it in a library in Heaven where man cannot benefit from its existence. Again we ask, "What good to us, here and now, is a perfect book locked up out of reach in Heaven?"
Secondly, Psalm 12:6 makes reference to His words being on earth. To preserve them somewhere other than on earth is not to preserve them at all. So we see then that God inspired the originals perfectly. Then over the centuries He has preserved those same word today. They are found in the Authorized Version.
ADDITIONAL NOTE:
In the area of "inspired translations" it might be noted that the double truth of Genesis 22:8 which in a King James Bible is plainly revealed as a prophetic reference to Jesus Christ, is lost in such weak translations as the New King James, the New International Version, and the New American Standard Version.
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So what did English-speaking Christians do before 1611? Was the Bishop's Bible the perfectly preserved Word of God? If yes, then why did God have to have a "new" translation to "improve the Word of God"? So which is the perfectly preserved Word?
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The concept that God preserved his word can clearly be shown to be accurate. In caves - in the vicinity of the Dead Sea - in clay pots - for the better part of two millenia - the records of scripture were preserved through the better part of two millenia - until they were unearthed at a time when techniques for preservation and promulgation were advanced enough - at a time when they could be translated and distributed.
But the Old Testament itself records a time when the scriptures disappeared from sight and ken of man - hidden in a temple treasury where they faded from the memory of men - until they were discovered by one Hilkiah the priest.
But the Old Testament itself records a time when the scriptures disappeared from sight and ken of man - hidden in a temple treasury where they faded from the memory of men - until they were discovered by one Hilkiah the priest.
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