Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

[FineLinen]

That my friend sums up your grasp of the Fathers sheep and goats!

 

[he-man]

Many who know universalism is true have found great peace of mind. Others who are unsure should, perhaps, seek God re the truth of the matter. After all, 1 Tim.2:4 says that it is God's will for you:

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time



Is that now the third time you've repeated that. And i keep telling you no one has made such a claim. It's the pro hell club that is alleging that as a "proof text" in support of their god burning billions in fire for all eternity. 1 Tim.4:9 This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance. 10 to this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.…
Mt.25:46. The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question.

Translation: G2618 κατακαίεται κατακαίω to calcinate by fire, to be burned down, consume by fire; Μlt-H. 242 (s.ν. καίω) burn down, burn up, consume by fire τί something: [cheat] weeds Μt 13: 30 Moulton and Milligan; BAG411-412; LN133; Strong: consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).[compare 2545-2596]

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal. G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction G2849 κολάζω kolazō reserve for infliction;Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, κολαζομενους mince, cut up οr shred; Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize, fine
G5099 τίνω to pay a price, by way of return or recompense; that is, as a penalty; G1349 δίκη trial, suit, litigation, oyer; court hearing (Law) Pay a penalty; 2613 καταδίκη καταδικάζω legal burden, convict, penalize, reprobate, sentence, adjudge, pronounce guilty; Acts 25:15; AS233; AD264; compare [2631]

(1) Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, (2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-3

 

[he-man]

That my friend sums up your grasp of the Fathers sheep and goats!

Matthew_25:33　 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41　 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:　

G2618 κατακαίεται κατακαίω to calcinate by fire, to be burned down, consume by fire; Μlt-H. 242 (s.ν. καίω) burn down, burn up, consume by fire τί something: [cheat] weeds Μt 13: 30 Moulton and Milligan; BAG411-412; LN133; Strong: consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).[compare 2545-2596] Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal.

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction G2849 κολάζω kolazō reserve for infliction;Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, κολαζομενους mince, cut up οr shred; Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize, fine

G5099 τίνω to pay a price, by way of return or recompense; that is, as a penalty; G1349 δίκη trial, suit, litigation, oyer; court hearing (Law) Pay a penalty; 2613 καταδίκη καταδικάζω legal burden, convict, penalize, reprobate, sentence, adjudge, pronounce guilty; Acts 25:15; AS233; AD264; compare [2631]

 

[DamianWarS]

that is pretty much what the scribes and pharisees said about Paul preaching grace to which Paul responded shall we then continue is sin that grace may abound, God forbid.

universal salvation through Christ is nothing more then the grace of God upon all mankind.

Universalism doesn't motive spreading the Gospel and it instead tends to retard it, this is why it is irresponsible.

 

[FineLinen]

Universalism doesn't motive spreading the Gospel and it instead tends to retard it, this is why it is irresponsible.

Nonsense! Spreading the good news of the Saviour of all mankind is part of the Father Abba bringing about His "cherished" purpose.

Ta pante is the strongest word in the Canon for all/pas. Literally ta pante= the all.

Our God has in/ by His own will declared His intention of restoring the whole of created life back into Himself from whence it came! This is His "cherished" purpose to be consummated in the fulness of times when all of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld bow in antiphonal chorus of praise and worship IN the Name of all names, the Christ!

Notice the word IN, not at the Name, in the Name! Just be patient, our God is [the] Saviour of all/pas mankind! But wait there is more>>>>>>>>>

He is the Saviour/Soter "especially" of those who trust in Him/ who believe.

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

 

[FineLinen]

The Sheep & The Goats=

http://jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com/jonathan-s-writings/the-sheep-and-the-goats/

 

[Pneuma3]

Duh! which is the second death G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

άπόλλυμι for its conj. s. 131-D. § 101, ρ. 47; Rob. 317; fut. άπoλέσω Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. άπολώ 1 Cοr 1:19 (Ιs 29:14); 1 aοr. άπώλεσα; 1 pf. άπ-oλώλεκα; fut. mid. άπολουμαι Lk 13: 3; 2 aοr. άπωλόμην; the 2 pf. άπόλωλα serves as a ρf. mid., ρtc. άπολωλώς (Ηοm. + ; inscr., pap., LΧΧ, Εn., Philο, Joseph., Test. 12 Pαtr.).

1. act.—a. ruin, destroy.
α. οf pers. (Sir 10: 3) Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) Αbs. οf a people perish J 11: 50. Of individuals (Lev 23: 30) Αc 5: 37; 2 Pt 3: 9; 1 Cl 12: 6; 39: 5 (Job 4: 20).—Esp. οf eternal death (cf. Ps 9: 6f [5f]; 36[37]: 20; 67: 3[68: 2]; 91: 10[92: 9]; Is 41: 11) J 3: 16; 17: 12. άπολέσθαι εiς τδν αίώνα perish forever 10: 28 (Bar 3: 3 ήμεiς άπoλλύμενοι τόν αίώνα). άνόμως ά. Rο 2: 12; μωρώς ά. ΙΕρh 17:
BAG A Greek English Lexicon fourth edition (of Bauer's Wόrterbuch)

In Mark 9:49 Jesus says "For everyone will be salted with fire" (interestingly, in Greek this sentence has the grammatical structure of an obvious statement of fact, similar to "for [everyone knows that] everyone will be salted with fire"). Peter repeats this idea in 2 Peter 3:7 "but now, by the same Word [that is Jesus], heaven and earth are saved and kept for fire on the day of judgment, and the destruction of impious men

What penalty will suffer, everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
2 Thessalonicher 1:9 (Elberfelder 1905 (German))

Death, eternal
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty [G1349 δικην] of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The necessary consequence of sin
Romans 6:16 Romans 6:21 ; 8:13 ; James 1:15

The wages of sin
Romans 6:23

The portion of the wicked
Matthew 25:41 Matthew 25:46 ; Romans 1:32

God alone can inflict
Matthew 10:28 ; James 4:12

IS DESCRIBED AS Banishment from God 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Outer darkness Matthew 25:30
A mist of darkness for ever 2 Peter 2:17 Indignation, wrath, Romans 2:8 Romans 2:9

IS CALLED Destruction Romans 9:22 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Perishing 2 Peter 2:12; The wrath to come 1 Thessalonians 1:10; The second death Revelation 2:11; A resurrection to judgment
John 5:29; A resurrection to shame & contempt Daniel 12:2; Everlasting penalty Matthew 25:46

Shall be inflicted by Christ Matthew 25:31 Matthew 25:41 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:8 Christ, the only way of escape from John 3:16 ; 8:51 ; Acts 4:12 Saints shall escape
Revelation 2:11 ; 20:6
Luke 16:23-26
Torrey, R.A., Reverand. "Entry for 'Death, eternal'". "The New Topical Text Book"

that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost
it simply implying the present state of things, governed by the Divine providence, in contradistinction from the eternal state: and it is very remarkable that, in 1 Timothy 1:17, God himself is calledτω δε βασιλει των αιωνων, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Psalms 21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Quoting scripture does not answer your mocking of God, one can easily read those same scripture in a literal translation and then the meaning changes.

Your doctrine as I have stated mocks God and teaches God will miss His mark which is sin, therefore your doctrine teaches God sins.

This is not hard to grasp if you would actually think about it.

 

[Pneuma3]

Universalism doesn't motive spreading the Gospel and it instead tends to retard it, this is why it is irresponsible.

DS you can only say this because you have a limited understanding of what we believe.

According to scripture we are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men; specially of those that believe.

So how can that which we are commanded to teach retard the gospel and be irresponsible?

Years ago on tents a lady asked this question.

Why preach the gospel at all if everyone is going to be saved anyway.

Here was my reply to her question.

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.





For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

 

[ClementofA]

Universalism doesn't motive spreading the Gospel and it instead tends to retard it, this is why it is irresponsible.

Tell that to the universalist apostle Paul & the ECF universalists like Origen who spread the gospel to the world.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

 

[ClementofA]

as I've said I'm not advocating endless torture but I am saying that universalism is irresponsible. why? because it's not a focus of scripture nor is it a matter of salvation, there is no further gain from this doctrine and it can make us apathetic to the focus of the gospel.

To the contrary:

1. Universalism is a "focus of Scripture". It's right there for those with eyes to see it.

2. "nor is it a matter of salvation"...Irrelevant. Many doctrines are taught that are not required to be believed to gain salvation. Should we ignore them? No, & Scripture commands to teach universalism (1 Tim.4:9-11).

3. "no further gain from this doctrine"? Truth sets free, Jesus said. Freedom is great gain.

4. "can make us apathetic to the focus of the gospel"? Tell that to the apostles (e.g. Paul) who evangelized the world. Tell that to the universalist early church fathers who brought Christianity to the world.

OTOH what are you going to tell the many millions who've rejected the gospel of the Bible God, Love Omnipotent, because they've been told He will torture billions in fire forever? Perhaps you should consider the damage that is doing regarding the reception of the gospel. Moreover, do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them? Do you think God will damn them forever if they never believed because they never heard? Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for "eternal fire insurance" truly saved?

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[DamianWarS]

DS you can only say this because you have a limited understanding of what we believe.

According to scripture we are commanded to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men; specially of those that believe.

So how can that which we are commanded to teach retard the gospel and be irresponsible?

Years ago on tents a lady asked this question.

Why preach the gospel at all if everyone is going to be saved anyway.

Here was my reply to her question.

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.





For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

Universalism comes from semetics and treating the gospel like a puzzle that needs to be put together to see it, but it itself is actually not taught in scripture. There is never the question "how long will the punishment be?" and likewise it is never answered, not explicitly or implicitly. For all I know Jesus just wags his finger at us but this is not what the gospel reveals to us.

When we begin to teach something that was never meant to be there to begin with we take away from the gospel and this is why it retards it. Try to explain universalism using the words of Jesus. The question is "how long is the punishment?" or "is the punishment forever?" now answer that using the language and focus of Jesus only. What you get is an unanswered question where you just simply have to admit we are no told these details.

It's like OSAS doctrines, although they can be extrapolated in scripture they themselves are not taught and we take something away from the gospel when we hyper focus on these details that seem to only exist philosophically. For example let's take the parable of the talents in Mat 25. If at the end of the parable if someone asks Jesus "Yes, but how long is the servant kicked out for?" Jesus would probably reply "Didn't you even listen to the parable!?" It's just completely from the left field and has nothing to do with the focus the gospel puts on the antithesis to our reward in Jesus. Let's take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, if the reply was "How long is the rich man punished before he can join Abraham's side?" Again Jesus would look at them and say something like "stop trying to figure it out details that don't belong and listen to the parable"

 

[ClementofA]

There is never the question "how long will the punishment be?" and likewise it is never answered, not explicitly or implicitly.

I'd suggest less yik yaking & more time in the Word & prayer for enlightenment.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[DamianWarS]

I'd suggest less yik yaking & more time in the Word & prayer for enlightenment.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

But you also know there is just as many that suggest otherwise. This is why I think a dogmatic view here is irresponsible. We can't ignore the rest simply because we don't like it.

 

[he-man]

Quoting scripture does not answer your mocking of God, one can easily read those same scripture in a literal translation and then the meaning changes. Your doctrine as I have stated mocks God and teaches God will miss His mark which is sin, therefore your doctrine teaches God sins. This is not hard to grasp if you would actually think about it.

Then grasp this:
Col 4:6　 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.　

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ – Matthew 25:34-36 (NIV)

Matthew 25:32-33 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 3:12　 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.　

Revelation 20:14　 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.　

15　 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.　

Mat 22:14　 For many are called, but few are chosen.　

 

[he-man]

Universalism doesn't motive spreading the Gospel and it instead tends to retard it, this is why it is irresponsible.

AMEN!

 

[FineLinen]

Dear St. Paul: Please be advised that what you have admonished us to teach is limiting the Gospel!>>>>>>>

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men; specially of those that believe.

1. Command this.

2. Teach this.

 

[FineLinen]

he-man: instead of your mindless posting of colored Scripture, take a moment and tell us what are the qualifications for being a goat.

 

[he-man]

he-man: instead of your mindless posting of colored Scripture, take a moment and tell us what are the qualifications for being a goat.

contempt which those so described bring upon themselves by their refusal to accept the needy Matthew 25:33 and those who are ravening wolves and killed our Christ. Hebrews 10:27; Hebrews 10:28, Hebrews 10:29

 

[FineLinen]

contempt which those so described bring upon themselves by their refusal to accept the needy Matthew 25:33

1. I was hungry & you gave me no meat.

2. I was thirsty & you gave me no drink.

3. I was a stranger & you took me not in.

4. I was naked & you did not clothe me.

5. I was sick & in prison & you did not visit me.

 

[ClementofA]

But you also know there is just as many that suggest otherwise. This is why I think a dogmatic view here is irresponsible. We can't ignore the rest simply because we don't like it.

With that kind of reasoning, if most people were atheists you'ld say it's irresponsible to rule out atheism. And it's irresponsible to get in the ark with Noah. And it's irresponsible to follow Jesus.