Is Abortion Murder?

[JacktheCatholic]

I am now going to shut up. Fantine says it better.

All she is saying is that women should have the right to slaughter babies for their own selfish desires. That my dear is evil.

 

[jad123]

Jack, it is so obvious that you're a man.

Here is what I am saying. A young woman of no particular religious persuasion becomes pregnant. She is required by law to sacrifice her comfort, figure, and endure loss of income to give birth to this baby (if abortion were outlawed.)

Women are half the human race.

In order to make this world fairer, why should we not put a requirement on men (like you) that you all must register to become kidney and bone marrow donors? Is not the act of giving life to another human being important, even if you must suffer discomfort, loss of income from work, and scars for it?

You say there is a difference, but to those who believe that life doesn't begin at conception, there isn't.

I think it would be good for men to at least consider the possibility of a society in which they were forced, involuntarily, to be kidney and bone marrow donors, in order that they might better understand women's situation.

What on earth does being a man have to with it. My wife thinks your idea is loony as well.

 

[Calliso]

Jack, it is so obvious that you're a man.

Here is what I am saying. A young woman of no particular religious persuasion becomes pregnant. She is required by law to sacrifice her comfort, figure, and endure loss of income to give birth to this baby (if abortion were outlawed.)

Women are half the human race.

In order to make this world fairer, why should we not put a requirement on men (like you) that you all must register to become kidney and bone marrow donors? Is not the act of giving life to another human being important, even if you must suffer discomfort, loss of income from work, and scars for it?

You say there is a difference, but to those who believe that life doesn't begin at conception, there isn't.

I think it would be good for men to at least consider the possibility of a society in which they were forced, involuntarily, to be kidney and bone marrow donors, in order that they might better understand women's situation.

Aye and it;s not just the above mentioned women may have to go through. Birth and pregnancy can be life threatening. And even if not life threatening it can be an excuriating process. Women have literally torn down there because they just couldn;t stretch enough.


And on the just don;t have sex thing, we have to remember that not everyone is taught donlt have sex before marriage. And sex is a very very strong biological urge that can be very hard to deny especially if a person gets into any situation that could lead to it. And even having sex in marriage isn't a guarentee. I bet there are a ton of women out there whose husbands have disappeared on them after the women told them that she is pregnant. Not to mention many women likely have sex with a guy thinking he;s the one! And they are going to get married..and then bam she drops the news hey I am pregnant..thinking he will be excited..only to have him freak out. Or have her family freak out or something.

But anyway good post fantine..yeah maybe something like that would help men understand the situation women are in better.

 

[Calliso]

What on earth does being a man have to with it. My wife thinks your idea is loony as well.

I think she was trying to come up with a way men maybe could experience a bit of what women have to go through in some way or fashion. I donlt think she reallly wants that too happen though..but that she wants men to think about what it would be like to be forced to do that. To give up something of your body for someone else.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Oki I've never been pregnant, but isn't it better to be "uncomfortable" and give birth to a baby, than be "comfortable" and kill it?? And anyway, no one is mentioning the effects abortion has on a woman...sure she may not have to endure pregnancy, but she'll have to suffer painful physical and emotional consequences...and she may never have a baby again! It turns out that pregnancy is actually MORE comfortable - for most people. At least the result is a CHILD, not guilt/regret/depression.

 

[sunlover1]

Nah, it's not good , but it's not murder. Murder has to be killing someone who came out of the womb. before they come out of the womb, they don't have a soul. the soul is in the lungs, and the lungs don't breath in the soul until the baby is born, thus that is when life begins, with a slap on the babys rear from the doc.
killing fetuses is not a lot dif. than killing a fetus of a cow or a horse or a chicken. But on moral grounds it is wrong to terminate a pregnancy, except in the case of the life of the mother, or if it will be horribly deformed, or in the case of rape. shoot if abortion is wrong because it kills a fetus, then everytime a woman douches after sex , she would sometimes be commiting murder. and that can't be.

Actually it only really matters about abortion if one is a christian, moraly. There are much worse things that the unsaved need to worry about before they get saved than abortion, IMO. Christians should be trying to do the right stuff, and having an abortion, although not murder, isn't the right stuff.

just my thoughst on the subject.

What you or I think isnt what matters though.
I know that in the OT, there was a grave penalty
for accidently hurting a pregnant woman to the
point where the baby died.

Did you ever hear about this lady?

Her name is Gianna, her mom went to the clinic and
when the doctor gave the solution, it didnt kill the
baby, but instead the baby was born!

I have the book and was just fixing to read it.

Babies are a gift from God, I would hate to dispose
of one, but I know women who have and I think we
should all pray for them to forgive themselves and
for God's grace to help them move on and put it
behind them.
It's gotta be a toughie.


sunlover

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Aye and it;s not just the above mentioned women may have to go through. Birth and pregnancy can be life threatening. And even if not life threatening it can be an excuriating process. Women have literally torn down there because they just couldn;t stretch enough.


And on the just don;t have sex thing, we have to remember that not everyone is taught donlt have sex before marriage. And sex is a very very strong biological urge that can be very hard to deny especially if a person gets into any situation that could lead to it. And even having sex in marriage isn't a guarentee. I bet there are a ton of women out there whose husbands have disappeared on them after the women told them that she is pregnant. Not to mention many women likely have sex with a guy thinking he;s the one! And they are going to get married..and then bam she drops the news hey I am pregnant..thinking he will be excited..only to have him freak out. Or have her family freak out or something.

But anyway good post fantine..yeah maybe something like that would help men understand the situation women are in better.

Tearing down there is not life threatening and it is normal and will heal just fine. My wife had this happen with our first.


Also very very few cases are life threatening and less than 1% of abortions have anything to do with be life threatening or to do with rape. Fact is more than 4,000 abortions (on average) happen every day and is nothing more than a contraceptive for sinful people.

All this talk about pain or discomfort or having to carry a baby for 9 months should be an accepted result of having sex. Otherwise do not have sex. Why should an innocent child have to die so some selfish girl can have sex as some kind of pass time? That is just ludicrous.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Oki I've never been pregnant, but isn't it better to be "uncomfortable" and give birth to a baby, than be "comfortable" and kill it?? And anyway, no one is mentioning the effects abortion has on a woman...sure she may not have to endure pregnancy, but she'll have to suffer painful physical and emotional consequences...and she may never have a baby again! It turns out that pregnancy is actually MORE comfortable - for most people. At least the result is a CHILD, not guilt/regret/depression.

That is a GREAT POINT!

I read recently that something like 90% of women that have had an abortion later regret having made that decision. That is 90% regret it.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What you or I think isnt what matters though.
I know that in the OT, there was a grave penalty
for accidently hurting a pregnant woman to the
point where the baby died.

Did you ever hear about this lady?

Her name is Gianna, her mom went to the clinic and
when the doctor gave the solution, it didnt kill the
baby, but instead the baby was born!

I have the book and was just fixing to read it.

Babies are a gift from God, I would hate to dispose
of one, but I know women who have and I think we
should all pray for them to forgive themselves and
for God's grace to help them move on and put it
behind them.
It's gotta be a toughie.


sunlover

Those are miraculous stories. Though it would be sad to think your mother did not love or want you.

 

[Fantine]

All she is saying is that women should have the right to slaughter babies for their own selfish desires. That my dear is evil.

That is not what I am saying at all.

Maybe what I am saying is that if men had a real understanding of what an unwanted pregnancy meant to a woman they would think twice about pressuring them into having sex.....

Or perhaps if the woman became pregnant, they would think twice about walking away and saying, "It's not MY problem...."

Men have never had to bear the consequences of sex--unless they volunteered to.

Even today, an adulterous pregnant woman was executed in Nigeria while her adulterous partner suffered no punishment.....

And when Jesus prevented a woman from being stoned in the Gospels, there wasn't any man suffering his 'just' punishment next to her.

 

[Calliso]

That is not what I am saying at all.

Maybe what I am saying is that if men had a real understanding of what an unwanted pregnancy meant to a woman they would think twice about pressuring them into having sex.....

Or perhaps if the woman became pregnant, they would think twice about walking away and saying, "It's not MY problem...."

Men have never had to bear the consequences of sex--unless they volunteered to.

Even today, an adulterous pregnant woman was executed in Nigeria while her adulterous partner suffered no punishment.....

And when Jesus prevented a woman from being stoned in the Gospels, there wasn't any man suffering his 'just' punishment next to her.

Great post! yeah it kinda annoys me when men talk about consequences of sex and stuff. It makes me think..ok what consequences of sex do men have to face? I mean for example a young woman gets pregnant by her boyfriend. She can;t just walk away. She has basically three choices. Have the baby and adopt it out, have the baby and do her best to take care of it. or Abort. All choices of which can have a physically and emotional toll, basically no matter what she sacrifices. The guy however? He can just walk away. And before anyone says something about child support laws..I am sure there are hundreds of cases stuck in the courts and even more men getting off totally scott free out there right now.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

That is not what I am saying at all.

Maybe what I am saying is that if men had a real understanding of what an unwanted pregnancy meant to a woman they would think twice about pressuring them into having sex.....

Or perhaps if the woman became pregnant, they would think twice about walking away and saying, "It's not MY problem...."

Men have never had to bear the consequences of sex--unless they volunteered to.

Even today, an adulterous pregnant woman was executed in Nigeria while her adulterous partner suffered no punishment.....

And when Jesus prevented a woman from being stoned in the Gospels, there wasn't any man suffering his 'just' punishment next to her.

You give many examples where a man has been neglectfull, hurtful, and sinful. But where is your comopassion for the most innocent of a pregnancy... the BABY?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Great post! yeah it kinda annoys me when men talk about consequences of sex and stuff. It makes me think..ok what consequences of sex do men have to face? I mean for example a young woman gets pregnant by her boyfriend. She can;t just walk away. She has basically three choices. Have the baby and adopt it out, have the baby and do her best to take care of it. or Abort. All choices of which can have a physically and emotional toll, basically no matter what she sacrifices. The guy however? He can just walk away. And before anyone says something about child support laws..I am sure there are hundreds of cases stuck in the courts and even more men getting off totally scott free out there right now.

You persist in pointing out things about the pregnant mother and the father but what about the BABY?

This is the person that is being the most affected by abortion.

 

[Calliso]

You persist in pointing out things about the pregnant mother and the father but what about the BABY?

This is the person that is being the most affected by abortion.

Yes abortion is a sad thing. But the above isn;t representative of what is aborted. Most abortions take place early on when the fetus/baby would fit in the petri dish. Not to mention if instead of being aborted all would be aborted babies were given birth too, many would lead horrible unwanted and neglected lives. Many would likely come to wish that they had never been born. Being born isn;t always a blessing in many cases women having abortions are doing the baby a favor.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes abortion is a sad thing. But the above isn;t representative of what is aborted. Most abortions take place early on when the fetus/baby would fit in the petri dish. Not to mention if instead of being aborted all would be aborted babies were given birth too, many would lead horrible unwanted and neglected lives. Many would likely come to wish that they had never been born. Being born isn;t always a blessing in many cases women having abortions are doing the baby a favor.

So you are saying you have the right to decide who should live and die?

Shouldn't we leave that determination to God?

 

[sunlover1]

Those are miraculous stories. Though it would be sad to think your mother did not love or want you.

I know, that's what I was thinking too when I read the preface.
But she goes about telling all about the goodness of God,
and How He saved her, so maybe she's beyond that.

SL

 

[Fantine]

Jack, I haven't seen any indication in any of the posts that no one is thinking about the babies.

Saying that men should be more responsible IS thinking about the babies.

Saying that men should be more empathetic IS thinking about the babies.

But the question is: Is abortion murder? The answer is, at the present moment in the US, legally, no.

Do I think that abortion is a moral evil? Yes, I do. I think that it is one of many moral evils that exist in the world today.

And, as is true with many moral evils, I think that there are positive things we can do to end it--and that most of them involve helping mothers during and after the baby's birth. If we are going to help mothers financially, I would rather see educational assistance with free child care for a period of time so that she could get a job that would allow her to support her family.

Do I think abortion is murder? I often think about the question as to whom you would save if your house was on fire--the child in the nursery or a dozen embryos in a petri dish....

There's no question as to whom people would save.

So no, while I would call it a moral evil, I would not equate it with murder.

 

[nyj]

Do I think abortion is murder? I often think about the question as to whom you would save if your house was on fire--the child in the nursery or a dozen embryos in a petri dish....

There's no question as to whom people would save.

That's such a silly question, it's not ever worth asking.

 

[Servant222]

J
Do I think abortion is murder? I often think about the question as to whom you would save if your house was on fire--the child in the nursery or a dozen embryos in a petri dish....

There's no question as to whom people would save.

So no, while I would call it a moral evil, I would not equate it with murder.

Murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.

So the only question is whether a foetus is a human being or not. I have previously said that since it has a full set of human chromosomes at conception, it is a human being. To declare a foetus to be a human being at any other point between conception and birth is arbitrary, and not based on any science.

If you wish to say that a foetus is a human being at some arbitrary point in its life is fine- but then you have to accept the fact that other people may have different definitions, and that any such definition might not be acceptable to God.

And with regard to your question above: I would say it depends on how much you appreciate what is in the petri dish. This is perhaps a somewhat repugnant example, but for the sake of argument, think of the following:

If you are parents who have desperately been trying to have children for many years, and the embryos in that petri dish were the offspring of your attempt to have children by artificial insemination, then you might have a totally different outlook on what is more valuable.

 

[Fantine]

Part of the definition of murder involves knowledge, intent, and motive.

People who work in abortion clinics (a former high school classmate of my son's, for example) usually do so because they believe they are helping women. The aforementioned classmate, for example, could have done many other things. She was a high school saluatorian who eventually went to chiropractic school. It was exactly because she was following her conscience that she chose to work in a location where she sometimes had to cross picket lines to go to work. She was a person of high principles but differing beliefs from pro-lifers.

You call her a murderer; she called herself a counselor and social worker.

Similarly, the 4% of aborting mothers who have later term abortions (whose fetuses would more closely resemble the pictures on the placards) almost all do so because of fetal abnormalities or maternal health. In some cases they are trying to spare their families (and their unborn babies) a lifetime of suffering. In others they are trying to preserve their health so they can adequately care for the children they already have. You may call them misguided, but they aren't murderers.

I look at being pro-life globally. How do we show the world that life is sacred?

I think that pro-lifers do more to show the world that life is sacred by spending that hour a week visiting nursing homes and giving comfort to the lonely and abandoned than by picketing with placards.

If you want to convince parents who have learned that their baby will have a genetic disease that life is sacred, volunteer at the Special Olympics. Offer disabled people jobs when they are adults.

One of my friends had an autistic son, and when she moved here, she had to go to several churches until she found one where they were accepted. Churchgoers were hostile to her son because his behavior sometimes distracted them during services.

But if churchgoers tell families with autistic children, "Go away, we don't want you!" what does that tell us about their beliefs on the sacredness of life?